Making time for kids? Study says quality trumps quantity

[Anonymous]

Another data point: my mother was mostly a SAHM. She went to grad school when I was quite young and student taught and substitute taught. I know when I was in second grade she took over for another teacher with a brain tumor for a few months. I know in sixth grade she substitute taught my class when my teacher had the flu. I don't remember her working after that.

I LOVED when she worked. She thought all the kids were terribly behaved so in comparison thought my brother and I were angels when she'd come home from a day of teaching. Plus, she'd come home completely exhausted, and as long as we brought her a Coke with ice, she'd drink that laying on the couch and leave us alone. I HATED when she was home all the time. She was suffocating. Always wanted to talk and ask questions and got involved where we didn't need her input. She drove my brother and I apart so much - even he will admit he was favored by her - by meddling in our arguments rather than letting us work them out ourselves. Any time I was racing around to get ready for school as I'd go past her bedroom she'd call out to me, "Let me see your outfit! Turn around. Do you think it'd look better tucked in? Go tuck it in and show me. Are you going to brush your hair?" When I'd come home in the afternoon, I as an introvert needed to be alone and recover from school and all the people. She however, was so excited to finally have someone to talk with she'd badger me over and over without letting me decompress.

She wasn't JUST a SAHM. She was a SAHM who had no life and tried to live vicariously through her children. She was a SAHM who did nothing but sleep, eat and watch tv while we were at school. It was awful and I will never be that type of mother to my children.

[Anonymous]

This must be the "Hell of American Daycare" article PP keeps referencing. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112892/hell-american-day-care

It discusses a home daycare run by a 22 year old in Texas. In particular, the article focuses on the struggle of low income and single parents to afford qualify daycare.

I posted many threads back explaining my opinion that the bigger issue than the WOHM/SAHM wars is the divide between educated/affluent parents and families who are less educated and struggling financially.

When I think of SAHMs, I think of all the girls I went to HS with in small town Georgia who got married right away, never received their college degrees, and are SAHMs by default because they can't find jobs that would cover the cost of childcare. Comparing them to the bulk of SAHMs posting on this thread is like comparing a home daycare run by a 22 year old in Texas to the child care used by most of the working moms on DCUM. There is a broad spectrum in the quality of SAHM just like there is a broad spectrum of paid childcare.

The fact is, most of the women posting on this board are SAH because they can comfortably afford to do so and are educated enough to provide quality care to their children. And the women working on this board tend to be successful and able to shell out for quality childcare.

If only the posters on here who claim to be "so concerned" with the care of other people's children would re-direct that concern off of DCUM and into advocating for better family policies such as childcare subsidies for the working class, family education courses for those with less education, etc.

The children who are disadvantaged are the ones in homes lacking financial stability and parent education. Why not focus on this issue instead of the SAHM/WOHM wars?

[Anonymous]

Well said PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This must be the "Hell of American Daycare" article PP keeps referencing. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112892/hell-american-day-care

It discusses a home daycare run by a 22 year old in Texas. In particular, the article focuses on the struggle of low income and single parents to afford qualify daycare.

I posted many threads back explaining my opinion that the bigger issue than the WOHM/SAHM wars is the divide between educated/affluent parents and families who are less educated and struggling financially.

When I think of SAHMs, I think of all the girls I went to HS with in small town Georgia who got married right away, never received their college degrees, and are SAHMs by default because they can't find jobs that would cover the cost of childcare. Comparing them to the bulk of SAHMs posting on this thread is like comparing a home daycare run by a 22 year old in Texas to the child care used by most of the working moms on DCUM. There is a broad spectrum in the quality of SAHM just like there is a broad spectrum of paid childcare.

The fact is, most of the women posting on this board are SAH because they can comfortably afford to do so and are educated enough to provide quality care to their children. And the women working on this board tend to be successful and able to shell out for quality childcare.

If only the posters on here who claim to be "so concerned" with the care of other people's children would re-direct that concern off of DCUM and into advocating for better family policies such as childcare subsidies for the working class, family education courses for those with less education, etc.

The children who are disadvantaged are the ones in homes lacking financial stability and parent education. Why not focus on this issue instead of the SAHM/WOHM wars?

+1. I don't understand these mommy wars, with both sides ripping the other apart. We all know kids who are happy and healthy who have both kinds of moms - WOHM and SAHM. That children can turn out either badly or well regardless of their mothers' working status is so self-evident I can't believe everyone's fighting about it. Clearly issues like SE status, education, and frankly personality type of the parents have much more to do with how the kids turn out.

[Anonymous]

The children who are disadvantaged are the ones in homes lacking financial stability and parent education. Why not focus on this issue instead of the SAHM/WOHM wars?

Love this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another data point: my mother was mostly a SAHM. She went to grad school when I was quite young and student taught and substitute taught. I know when I was in second grade she took over for another teacher with a brain tumor for a few months. I know in sixth grade she substitute taught my class when my teacher had the flu. I don't remember her working after that.

I LOVED when she worked. She thought all the kids were terribly behaved so in comparison thought my brother and I were angels when she'd come home from a day of teaching. Plus, she'd come home completely exhausted, and as long as we brought her a Coke with ice, she'd drink that laying on the couch and leave us alone. I HATED when she was home all the time. She was suffocating. Always wanted to talk and ask questions and got involved where we didn't need her input. She drove my brother and I apart so much - even he will admit he was favored by her - by meddling in our arguments rather than letting us work them out ourselves. Any time I was racing around to get ready for school as I'd go past her bedroom she'd call out to me, "Let me see your outfit! Turn around. Do you think it'd look better tucked in? Go tuck it in and show me. Are you going to brush your hair?" When I'd come home in the afternoon, I as an introvert needed to be alone and recover from school and all the people. She however, was so excited to finally have someone to talk with she'd badger me over and over without letting me decompress.

She wasn't JUST a SAHM. She was a SAHM who had no life and tried to live vicariously through her children. She was a SAHM who did nothing but sleep, eat and watch tv while we were at school. It was awful and I will never be that type of mother to my children.

I would have LOVED for my mom to have been a SAHM. The idea of having a mother who was there, waiting for me to come home from school, who wanted to know about my day, who was actually interested and had time to sit and talk with me - what a dream that would have been for me growing up. I hated having to go to after-care programs and camp after camp during the summers. It was just one over-scheduled day after another. I was an introvert too, and would have done anything just to come home after school and curl up with a book, knowing my mom was nearby, rather than having to participate in stupid activities and crafts just to while away the time until I was picked up and could finally go home. Several of my best friends had SAHMs and it was always such a treat when I could go home with them instead of going to after-care. Their moms made everything warm and inviting and I felt such envy that my own mom wasn't like that. I never looked at their moms as "having no life" or "living vicariously through their children." On the contrary, I was so blown away that they made the time for their kids and had close relationships with them. I craved more time with my mother. I could have used her advice many times with clothes or how to wear my hair, or so many other things, but she was usually rushing around, or already at work. And no, she didn't 'have' to work to provide for us. She was 'following her path,' as she put it; and she now wonders why my siblings and I aren't especially interested in how she's doing these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another data point: my mother was mostly a SAHM. She went to grad school when I was quite young and student taught and substitute taught. I know when I was in second grade she took over for another teacher with a brain tumor for a few months. I know in sixth grade she substitute taught my class when my teacher had the flu. I don't remember her working after that.

I LOVED when she worked. She thought all the kids were terribly behaved so in comparison thought my brother and I were angels when she'd come home from a day of teaching. Plus, she'd come home completely exhausted, and as long as we brought her a Coke with ice, she'd drink that laying on the couch and leave us alone. I HATED when she was home all the time. She was suffocating. Always wanted to talk and ask questions and got involved where we didn't need her input. She drove my brother and I apart so much - even he will admit he was favored by her - by meddling in our arguments rather than letting us work them out ourselves. Any time I was racing around to get ready for school as I'd go past her bedroom she'd call out to me, "Let me see your outfit! Turn around. Do you think it'd look better tucked in? Go tuck it in and show me. Are you going to brush your hair?" When I'd come home in the afternoon, I as an introvert needed to be alone and recover from school and all the people. She however, was so excited to finally have someone to talk with she'd badger me over and over without letting me decompress.

She wasn't JUST a SAHM. She was a SAHM who had no life and tried to live vicariously through her children. She was a SAHM who did nothing but sleep, eat and watch tv while we were at school. It was awful and I will never be that type of mother to my children.

You grew up on too much Disney Fantasy. Sorry but real life sucks.

I would have LOVED for my mom to have been a SAHM. The idea of having a mother who was there, waiting for me to come home from school, who wanted to know about my day, who was actually interested and had time to sit and talk with me - what a dream that would have been for me growing up. I hated having to go to after-care programs and camp after camp during the summers. It was just one over-scheduled day after another. I was an introvert too, and would have done anything just to come home after school and curl up with a book, knowing my mom was nearby, rather than having to participate in stupid activities and crafts just to while away the time until I was picked up and could finally go home. Several of my best friends had SAHMs and it was always such a treat when I could go home with them instead of going to after-care. Their moms made everything warm and inviting and I felt such envy that my own mom wasn't like that. I never looked at their moms as "having no life" or "living vicariously through their children." On the contrary, I was so blown away that they made the time for their kids and had close relationships with them. I craved more time with my mother. I could have used her advice many times with clothes or how to wear my hair, or so many other things, but she was usually rushing around, or already at work. And no, she didn't 'have' to work to provide for us. She was 'following her path,' as she put it; and she now wonders why my siblings and I aren't especially interested in how she's doing these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

See, I've had exactly the opposite thought. When the daughters of all gheae these WOHMs grow up, they're not even going to consider SAH with their kids because their mothers will have ingrained in them, from Day 1, that successful women simply don't stay home with their kids. Instead, they pay other women (lesser beings, in their books), to do the actual childcare. And that is so sad, that these women will never have the support of their own mothers to raise their kids the way they choose, if that way includes staying home with them.

As a SAHM, I'm planning on supporting my daughter in any way I can, whether she chooses to be a WOHM or a SAHM, or any combination of the two. But I'll absolutely be teaching (and showing) her the value and importance of having a SAHP.

What a weird thing to say. Why would you think that? So suddenly WOHMs aren't capable of supporting their children's decisions as much as SAHMs are?

Also, be careful what you say around your kids now about other working parents. My mom was a SAHM and absolutely supported my sisters and I in our endeavors- encouraged us to do well in school, go to college, be whatever we wanted to be. But she could also be critical about my friends' parents who worked, and she would say so around us. Now I'm a working mom, and she's never criticized me to my face about it, but do you think I don't remember what she used to say and wonder if she silently disapproves?

And why does your mother have to approve of the way you raise your kids? She's an adult, she has a right to her own point of view. So do you. If you disagree, you disagree. She's not required to agree with your every decision as a parent just because she's your mother. As long as she doesn't openly criticize you and tell you what you should be doing she is doing exactly the right thing. We all try to raise our children a certain way, engrain certain values in them etc. - your Mom thought it was important you know she believes it's best for kids to have their mother around. That's not a bad thing. It's not what you are living today but that doesn't mean your Mom was wrong. It also doesn't mean she was right. It just means that is her value and she wanted her kids to know that. Which is exactly what you are doing now by being a working Mom you are teaching YOUR kids that that is okay.

Oh, I don't seek approval from my mom on everything I do- far from it. I just think that while it's great to tell your kids that you support their choices, it's also important to demonstrate through your own actions that you respect the choices and beliefs of others though they may differ from your own. Frankly, for all of my mom's great qualities, she can be a very critical, negative person- working moms were hardly her only target. Her mom (my grandmother) can be the same way, and I catch myself falling into that trap sometimes myself and have to be careful. However, I'm fairly laid-back by nature and didn't take a lot of her comments too seriously, my sister on the other hand "jokes" that she needs therapy because of her relationship with my mother- she's much more sensitive, lived with my parents throughout college, and still lives in our hometown. They are close but have a rather complicated relationship. Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into an assessment of my mom- more to say that we are influenced by our mothers more than we might realize.

And WOHMs can be just as judgmental as SAHMs.

Exactly- so why are we turning it into a WOHM vs. SAHM issue? So many of the complaints, anecdotes on here really have nothing to do with whether the mom works, but her personality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The children who are disadvantaged are the ones in homes lacking financial stability and parent education. Why not focus on this issue instead of the SAHM/WOHM wars?

Love this.

Please define financial stability and parent education.

Stable home, plenty of nutritious food, average clothes, etc. OR mcmansion, exotic vacations, and paid college?

Solid parental common sense and engagement, OR advanced degrees and little knowledge of child development and basic household management?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like the Moms here who went back to work when their babies were 6 months or younger to tell me honestly: Do you think your child was just as well being in daycare compared to being with you?

Excellent question. Anyone?

I'll bite. I actually think my daughter is more socialized and adaptable than she would be if she wasn't in daycare (and more so than I was at that age). DH and I are rather quiet, introverted people, and while the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, she's around kids and other adults all the time at daycare and is much more comfortable when being introduced to new people and situations. I'm not sure I would have been able to provide enough stimulation if she was with me 24/7, or set up enough play dates. We're trying for a sibling but haven't had luck yet, so I'm grateful that she's learning to share and get along with others.

Now, I absolutely hated taking her to daycare at 3 months- I felt awful and was tempted to quit. But we had to focus on the long term, it was important for my family that I maintain my career. Would have loved to take an additional few months but it just wasn't possible. Maybe you should focus your efforts on improving maternity leave policies and child care options in this country than chastising women for working with the current system? DD's daycare has been great- there have been a couple caregivers at the center I wasn't crazy about but most have been wonderful and I never doubted that she was well cared for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The children who are disadvantaged are the ones in homes lacking financial stability and parent education. Why not focus on this issue instead of the SAHM/WOHM wars?

Love this.

Please define financial stability and parent education.

Stable home, plenty of nutritious food, average clothes, etc. OR mcmansion, exotic vacations, and paid college?

Solid parental common sense and engagement, OR advanced degrees and little knowledge of child development and basic household management?

Did you even read the article? The women being profiled needed to work just to provide basic necessities.

For some reason you are obsessed with trying to paint working moms as working to merely provide luxuries. 1500 sq ft house here in a safe neighborhood but in a school pyramid many in here would turn their nose up at. Can only fit so much "stuff" in that size of a house. We like to be able to fly across the country to take the kids to see their grandparents- what a luxury! I like to be able to provide nutritious, healthy food and not weigh every purchase at the grocery store. And yeah, I don't want them paying back student loans into their 30s like I did. These are the things a dual income provides us- and we are luckier than most. Dual incomes on minimum wage are trying to make ends meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. I would do anything and everything necessary to be with my kids during the early years. At least from 1-3. Daycare can kick in at 3. And yes, I have done it all: moved to a cheaper area, worked from home, cut expenses etc. etc. Being with my kids absolutely trumps making money. As long as we have enough we have enough. Love, care and time over all are important to a child's early development...being able to afford nice clothes, toys, vacations, camps etc. is not as important to a child's emotional well-being as is being with Mom.

I would never leave an infant in daycare. Never. I would never leave an under 2 year old in daycare. Never. I do judge people who leave their under 2s in daycare because there ALWAYS are other ways. We got by on very little money for a very long time because we changed our priorities. It's not a bad life - just different. So nobody can tell me "I HAD TO leave my 6 months old at daycare 8 hours a day because I HAD TO work." No. You just didn't look hard enough for other options.

Single moms? Moms who are in professions where they can't take a break (surgery, academia) without significant repercussions? Parents where one person is deployed in the military? Parents who don't have trustworthy family nearby? These families all rely on daycare.

You have a very limited worldview. Very limited. FWIW, I am a (now tenured) professor in a STEM field who had my child in on-campus daycare. I nursed for 1.5 years, visited DC in daycare several times a day, and managed to have very successful career. I could not have taken time out of my field, because that is not how tenure works. A daycare was far better for DC and for me than a nanny, logistically and financially. Go ahead and blast me as a mom for having my 6 month old in daycare. But, you also probably believe that "math is hard" for girls....

These women are so far from understanding the demands of surgical rounds or academia that you might as well be speaking another language. They'll run the bake sale - you and your daughters run the world.

Riiight... because no one from academia or the medical community has EVER taken time off from her career to stay home with her children. That's just not done! I have news for you... most of the SAHMs I know have indeed left high-level professional careers to be SAHMs, whether temporarily or permanently. I understand it's convenient for you to slam SAHMs as knowing nothing more than how to run the bake sale (something I've never done in my life, BTW), but really - stereotype much?

You know tenured professors and surgeons who have left the workforce permanently after having kids? Um, ok.

Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. I clearly said, "whether temporarily or permanently". And yes, I do know both professors and physicians who have temporarily left the workforce to stay home with their children, and I also know plenty of other professionals (myself included) who are home on a semi-permanent basis - meaning home indefinitely with possible plans to return to work sometime in the future. Guess what? It can be done.

Looking for evidence on the permanent part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have never known anyone, ever, whose daycare wasn't "the best," whose nanny/sitter/Au pair wasn't amazing and also "the best."

Is it really so hard for you to believe that the plurality of people keep looking until they find a caregiver they believe is good?

I also love my GP, my dentist, and my auto mechanic. I kept looking until I found good ones. Why would I do less for childcare?

OMG.

I'm not that poster but I get what she's saying. I'm sure you don't because - well, brain rot et al.

Yes, because I equate finding the "perfect" childcare provider with finding the "right" auto mechanic. Good grief. Talk about brain rot.

Oh, don't be a cow. You are deliberately misinterpreting that. Most people probably understood that what I was saying is: finding a good childcare provider isn't easy, but it isn't brain surgery. You visit a lot, talk to other parents, and keep looking until you find one. Every morning I drove past a dozen daycare to get to ours. It was worth it.

I don't know anyone who shoved their child in the first available daycare. Everyone I know worked hard to find a place they could trust. It ain't easy, but it's entirely doable.

I don't think you have brain rot; I just think you're a nasty person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The children who are disadvantaged are the ones in homes lacking financial stability and parent education. Why not focus on this issue instead of the SAHM/WOHM wars?

Love this.

Please define financial stability and parent education.

Stable home, plenty of nutritious food, average clothes, etc. OR mcmansion, exotic vacations, and paid college?

Solid parental common sense and engagement, OR advanced degrees and little knowledge of child development and basic household management?

Right. Because WOHMs are vain and greedy, and work only so they can provide a McMansion and trips to Tahiti. I'm so shallow that I worked so that my child could have health insurance. Crazy! Does that pass your holy judgment?

Frankly, those McMansions are more likely inhabited by a SAHM with a nanny and a housekeeper... Most of the people I see make that choice have gobs of money and the SAHM is another status symbol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another data point: my mother was mostly a SAHM. She went to grad school when I was quite young and student taught and substitute taught. I know when I was in second grade she took over for another teacher with a brain tumor for a few months. I know in sixth grade she substitute taught my class when my teacher had the flu. I don't remember her working after that.

I LOVED when she worked. She thought all the kids were terribly behaved so in comparison thought my brother and I were angels when she'd come home from a day of teaching. Plus, she'd come home completely exhausted, and as long as we brought her a Coke with ice, she'd drink that laying on the couch and leave us alone. I HATED when she was home all the time. She was suffocating. Always wanted to talk and ask questions and got involved where we didn't need her input. She drove my brother and I apart so much - even he will admit he was favored by her - by meddling in our arguments rather than letting us work them out ourselves. Any time I was racing around to get ready for school as I'd go past her bedroom she'd call out to me, "Let me see your outfit! Turn around. Do you think it'd look better tucked in? Go tuck it in and show me. Are you going to brush your hair?" When I'd come home in the afternoon, I as an introvert needed to be alone and recover from school and all the people. She however, was so excited to finally have someone to talk with she'd badger me over and over without letting me decompress.

She wasn't JUST a SAHM. She was a SAHM who had no life and tried to live vicariously through her children. She was a SAHM who did nothing but sleep, eat and watch tv while we were at school. It was awful and I will never be that type of mother to my children.

I would have LOVED for my mom to have been a SAHM. The idea of having a mother who was there, waiting for me to come home from school, who wanted to know about my day, who was actually interested and had time to sit and talk with me - what a dream that would have been for me growing up. I hated having to go to after-care programs and camp after camp during the summers. It was just one over-scheduled day after another. I was an introvert too, and would have done anything just to come home after school and curl up with a book, knowing my mom was nearby, rather than having to participate in stupid activities and crafts just to while away the time until I was picked up and could finally go home. Several of my best friends had SAHMs and it was always such a treat when I could go home with them instead of going to after-care. Their moms made everything warm and inviting and I felt such envy that my own mom wasn't like that. I never looked at their moms as "having no life" or "living vicariously through their children." On the contrary, I was so blown away that they made the time for their kids and had close relationships with them. I craved more time with my mother. I could have used her advice many times with clothes or how to wear my hair, or so many other things, but she was usually rushing around, or already at work. And no, she didn't 'have' to work to provide for us. She was 'following her path,' as she put it; and she now wonders why my siblings and I aren't especially interested in how she's doing these days.

How is it possible that you have reached this age without realizing that this was about your mother's personality and not the fact that she worked? It sounds like she wouldn't have been what you wanted regardless. I'm sorry if reporting this makes it more painful for you but surely you must realize that there are working moms who are warm and nurturing, who have an inviting home, who listen to and advise their kids?