Two spouses: a play

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

Right. I definitely feel like a child writing and receiving an award for a speech is capable of getting a birthday present and saying dad my show is on x day and time be there.
Alot of this mental load stuff is being a parent and the struggle is created by the need for rigid control, and refusal to delegate

What kid is getting a birthday present? Do you allow your kids to surf your Amazon account and make their own purchases? Because most people don't want their kids to do that.

Lol, right? That person’s kids also buy their own clothes.
They can’t bake cookies though…

By the time they are 13 they are buying their own clothes. They have a budget and if they want to do in store shopping they tell us if they want a ride


Younger kids are capable of being told go to your room and get a red sweater or a green shirt

You just think you have all the answers! But oops! No red dress. Or that green shirt from last year is now 2 sizes too small. What now super mom?

Then either their dad or I buy one or take them to buy it. You do have to do somethings for kids because they are kids. Were you under the impression that you birth them and then magically stuff just happens for 18 years?

Maybe you just have undiagnosed ADHD so basic things are very challenging for you

Nobody says it's hard. But you seem stuck on these very simple tasks. But in a day there are so many very simple tasks. Someone has to do them. And husbands would say they are focused on many other tasks just not the buying shirt tasks. For my house our division of labor is pretty even but no, my husband doesn't have to do the shirt but he is leaving work early today to take the car for an oil change.

I just had AI tally our last five years of Amazon packages and costs. For Share of Mind sake.

Things I ordered, by quantity:
65% for the kids (bday presents, clothes costume, sports stuff, school materials)
30% for the house (snacks, kitchen items, decor, lawn/pest stuff)
5% for me (cosmetics on sale, snakca)

Things my husband ordered, by quantity):
5% for kids (usually returned, wasn’t listening)
90% for himself (clothes/shoes, electronics, 5+ shavers a year & forgets to pack them)
5% for the house (weird electronics or lights sitting in a pile now)

Dollar value and quantity value vastly ordered by me. Tho his random electronics add up big time (roomba, etc).

Ok? Amazon won't quantify for me the mental labor of dealing with the income taxes, car maintenance, investment management, and all the other things in our household division of labor. While shopping for the shirts and bday presents is annoying I don't want to take on the other tasks so it works for us and more or less evens out.

The crux of the problem is ONE parent will not or cannot see the family’s needs and proactively fulfill them — whether it’s the school’s stated concert attire for a kid, or no more cereal left, or a sick child needing medicine, emotional support of a teen.

Then everything falls onto the OTHER more functional parent, who also still works fulltime, can get an oil change every 5k miles or two years, rebalance a PA, fix a leaky toilet, and meal plan, etc.

I mean what good is knowing how to fix a leaky toilet if you’re too lazy to walk by said leaky toilet and do something about it asap or later that day. You need a royal invitation from your wife?

I’m sorry your husband is like that but don’t presume everyone is reading and nodding along.

DP. A lot of women have this issue with their husbands. It's understandable that we would seek to commiserate somewhere. That's what is happening here.

What I don't understand is why there are apparently so many women with husbands who are not like this who need to devote time to this thread and expressing disbelief that any men are like this, or claiming it's just one or something. It's obviously not. It's a trope for a reason.

Trying to convince everyone that buying the dress and cookies is the biggest problem in a marriage is why you’re getting such push back. Men have figured out that this is nonsense, women either want to do this or don’t like the way their husbands compete these non essential tasks and then want to martyr themselves over it. It’s hard to muster up a lot of sympathy over this. Just drop the rope. Send the kid with whatever she has in her closet that’s close enough. Let the cookies go. It doesn’t really matter.

What if your kid tells you it matters?

FWIW, I'm a woman who works full-time and I do find certain things to be stupid wastes of time and therefore just don't do them. However, if my child cared about something, I would ignore the fact that I think it's dumb and would probably do it for them. Because that's part of being a parent. So I'm a little surprised that you think YOUR opinion is the only one that matters. You must not work either, because every job I've ever had has some parts that I don't think need to be done but do them nonetheless. It's called life.

Not really. Maybe in a lot of circles around here, with parents who work a lot and tend to make up for it by being overly indulgent, but you tell your kid that the skirt she already has will have to work. End of story. Your kid will grow up fine, and probably even better because she won't think the world revolves around her, or that she doesn't have to do things just because others are doing it. I really hate when schools do crap like this. It stresses out parents, even more so if they don't have a lot of disposable income.

You know what's not fun? Sitting around in the hot August sun watching a bunch of three-year olds try to kick a soccer ball. And yet millions of parents provide their children with this exact experience all the time. You know what else isn't fun? Schlepping to Target to buy a birthday gift for a kid your child doesn't know well and then wrapping said gift and then driving 45 minutes to deliver your kid to a smelly trampoline park for a party. And yet millions of parents provide their children with this exact experience all the time. Are all those parents indulgent and those children spoiled? I doubt it. Parents do things for their kids that they don't want to do all the time. And honestly, if you don't feel like you've ever done anything for your child like that, then I feel sorry for your kids. And no, I'm not overly indulgent or trying to impress anyone or keep up with the Joneses. But I do realize that the things kids need aren't necessarily the things I would always like to be doing. But being a parent requires being selfless sometimes.

We all have limits and it's ok to say no sometimes. Beating your head against the wall to make sure everything is perfect for your kid doesn't really do any good. My kids would like to sign up for all the activities every day. But, as a family we have finite resources and can't be in more than one place at the same time. Your kids will survive if they hear "no" once in awhile. I never buy gifts for kids anymore anyway, they get cash or a gift card so that problem has already been solved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think people are being a bit obtuse focusing on the individual tasks and arguing over whether or not they are important. That's not the issue. The issue is that when one spouse is left to do all the little administrative tasks and the other partner makes no effort to participate, doesn't pay attention to the emails about these things, doesn't participate in any way, not even in deciding "hey this is not important, let's let Carla where what she wants for caroling and if the organizer complains I'll handle it" or whatever, then what you've done is turned one spouse into the family's administrative assistant. And the stuff they do in this capacity may not be individually important in every instance, but overall the role is a lot and can become very burdensome.

To provide some examples:

- My DH cannot be bothered with anything related to the kids clothes, shoes, or hair. It gets defaulted to me because DH will say "Oh I'd have no idea where to start" or "I don't understand kids sizing" or "you bought their shoes last time, it makes sense for you to do it." Okay, fine, buying clothes and getting the kids' haircut is not a big deal, I don't really mind. Except then last year, there was a huge lice outbreak at their school. Both kids got it, and we caught it late because I had zero experience with lice prior to that and had missed the signs. I also got it. It took a full month of treatment and maintenance to fully eradicate the family and it was stressful and time consuming. I have a full time job just like DH and had to do all the lice stuff while juggling that. But when I'd say to DH "can you nit comb this child's hair tonight? I'm so wiped out and I still have to do my own hair" he'd protest and say he didn't know how and "you're the expert." I told him I was only an "expert" at that point because I'd had to undergo a crash course in lice over the previous week. So he does it but he doesn't look at the video I give him and he's not doing a thorough job, so I wind up doing it again after anyway. And he's like "don't assign it to me unless you are okay with me doing it my way" which sounds reasonable when it's buying a sweater but actually doesn't apply in this case because if you lice comb insufficiently, you wind up getting a reinfestation. But he was the one family member who didn't get lice and he didn't get it so it all just fell to me. And it was not an optional thing and it was not unimportant. And now I'm *still* the lice person in our household and I'm the one who does all the preventative maintenance to make sure we don't get it again and I'm the one who braids our daughter's hair and makes sure we have lice spray on hand when the school reports an outbreak and stays on top of it.

- Our school sends a million emails (like multiple per day) about everything from uniform policy reminders to upcoming events to request for volunteers. It's so much communication and a lot of it is unimportant or just invitations for make-work I have no interest in participating in. But buried among all the emails I don't care about are emails that are totally essential to our family, like the sign up link for next semester's aftercare program or info about scheduling changes for the week before winter break. So I open all the emails from the school to make sure I dont' miss something important. Most get deleted but int his way I can be confident I don't miss anything important, and that's how we wind up not missing aftercare sign ups or re-enrollment deadlines or know when testing is scheduled or whatever. DH ignores all of the emails because he says "they are mostly pointless" and when I explain that some of them are not pointless and we still have to pay attention to them, he's like "yeah, you're better at that stuff than me." Better at opening emails and reading? Who knows. But I wind up handling all the school admin stuff as a result because he's decided it's all useless. If I try to delegate it out to him, he'll push back and say "well I don't have the context for that and you did it last time so it makes sense for you to keep doing it." Which is true and also infuriating, because the only reason I have all the context is because I made it a point to learn it and the only reason I did it the last time is because he refuses to open school emails.

So all the little things OP is talking about can snowball into a heavy load to carry, and can also morph into essential family activities that only OP will have the context and experience to handle because her DH has made no effort to involve himself in things like staying on top of school notices about holiday concerts or interfacing with the activity group that does the caroling. It's nbd until one day it is a big deal and then OP is the only one positioned to handle it.

I hear you, PP. Can you pick certain things that are your husband's job that you don't have to think about? Say maybe the trash. If he doesn't take it to the curb then he can either go to the dump or deal with the fines from the HOA or handle the racoon infestation or whatever the results may be from failing that task. Maybe also things around the house that don't bother you, like fixing lightbulbs. I'm just wondering if there's a way for you to feel better about having to be the only person dealing with certain things?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

I don’t think you actually have elementary schoolers. Or that you are responsible for them anyway.
The only thing most elementary schoolers could do on the OP’s list without any help is make the cookies. And that’s the only thing you outsourced.

Maybe your elementary schoolers are a little slow? Mine know their colors. If I asked my daughter to get her green shirt, she would do so. If I remind my 4th grader to get her red dress, she'd go get it.

You're missing the point entirely. The husband isn't the issue here. The OP's inability to communicate and play the martyr is.

Are you really this dumb or are you being purposefully obtuse? The point is that not everyone already has a green shirt or a red dress. Neither of my daughters has either of those things - they aren't colors they like to wear. So yeah, my kids can pick out the green shirt from the closet if it's there, but they can't drive themselves to the mall to purchase one if it's not.

Why is a red dress necessary for caroling?

How would wearing an existing article of clothing prevent the caroling?

And does this child even want to sing to old people?

You're using strawmen here.

That's not what a strawman is.

And the PP raises a good point. OP is all bent out of shape that her DH isn't helping with something that is not all that important. They can teach the kid not to care about stupid stuff like that. Or if it is so important to OP to go along with the dumb thing from the school, she can do it herself. But why should her priorities control?

A strawman argument is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone misrepresents an opponent's argument to make it easier to attack. Instead of engaging with the actual argument, the person creates a distorted, exaggerated, or fabricated version of it (the "straw man") and then refutes that weaker version, making their own position appear more reasonable. This tactic is a form of dishonest debate that distracts from the original point.

That is exactly what is being done here. The issue isn't whether or not a child would be able to sing in a blue dress versus a red one. So making that the focus of your argument is ridiculous.

It's relevant to Act 3

Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Is OP's mental labor the result of invented tasks? To answer that question, you need to know the tasks. We know the tasks because she provided several in Act 1. The tasks are relevant to the argument OP offered.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It seems the OP is complaining that she is shouldering more of the burden for kid-related activities (a shock, I know).

However, she does not mention what her DH was doing while she was getting the correct dress for her DD, etc. The answer to this question has a material impact here.

For example, if he is a vascular surgeon earning 90% of the household income, then she has little right to complain since he is earning the lion's share of their household income (HHI). BTW - My opinion would remain the same if the genders were reversed (i.e., she was the surgeon and he was out buying the red dress).

If both are contributing the same amount to their HHI, he should pick up half the kid-related tasks. If one outearns the other, the lower earner should pick up more of the slack. The math is simple: the higher earner in the family should focus more on their job to ensure they (as a unit) earn the most together.

I really don't like this argument, that HHI is the way we measure contribution to the household. What if my nonprofit job which is arguably better for my family to see me doing and the world makes 1/10 as much as some man who works 1/2 the time but makes twice the money? And by the way, women make less money on the dollar for the same jobs, so shoud that mean they have to make up for it with other household tasks?

Yeah, agree that's BS. Especially since there are plenty of people with sedentary desk jobs that are conducive to doing the kind of family admin OP is talking about, that pay more than very active jobs with very little downtime for personal admin. Like consider a couple where he's an accountant at a large company with regular hours and sits behind a desk all day making 200k, but she's a 2nd grade teacher making 100k. She spends most of her work day on her feet and interacting with kids and has extremely limited time during the day to sit at a computer and do things like make doctor's appointments or order a new pair of shows for a kid who outgrew theirs. The DH in that scenario is obviously better positioned to do that kind of admin work, even though he makes twice as much, because his job is way more conducive to it. And no one can argue his job is more fundamentally important, either.

My husband and I have always viewed it as time spent ACTUALLY working is what matters. We have both out-earned each other over the years, but there are times when one of us is very busy with work or has travel or is generally stressed, so that's when the other person steps up. It doesn't matter who is contributing what to the joint checking account. My best friend is a teacher (but doesn't earn $100K!) and her husband has a desk job where he slightly out-earns her but works significantly less hard. He even comes home from work for an hour every day for lunch (they don't live in the DC area and his commute is under 10 minutes). But because his day ends at 5 pm and hers ends at 3 pm, she shoulders the majority of the kid-related tasks. He could do 99% of the administrative stuff and actually could more easily take leave to do stuff but he doesn't. He grew up with a SAHM and his dad was always treated like the king so he thinks he's important even though he makes under $100K and works 1/100th as hard as she does.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

Right. I definitely feel like a child writing and receiving an award for a speech is capable of getting a birthday present and saying dad my show is on x day and time be there.
Alot of this mental load stuff is being a parent and the struggle is created by the need for rigid control, and refusal to delegate

What kid is getting a birthday present? Do you allow your kids to surf your Amazon account and make their own purchases? Because most people don't want their kids to do that.

Lol, right? That person’s kids also buy their own clothes.
They can’t bake cookies though…

By the time they are 13 they are buying their own clothes. They have a budget and if they want to do in store shopping they tell us if they want a ride


Younger kids are capable of being told go to your room and get a red sweater or a green shirt

You just think you have all the answers! But oops! No red dress. Or that green shirt from last year is now 2 sizes too small. What now super mom?

Then either their dad or I buy one or take them to buy it. You do have to do somethings for kids because they are kids. Were you under the impression that you birth them and then magically stuff just happens for 18 years?

Maybe you just have undiagnosed ADHD so basic things are very challenging for you

Nobody says it's hard. But you seem stuck on these very simple tasks. But in a day there are so many very simple tasks. Someone has to do them. And husbands would say they are focused on many other tasks just not the buying shirt tasks. For my house our division of labor is pretty even but no, my husband doesn't have to do the shirt but he is leaving work early today to take the car for an oil change.

I just had AI tally our last five years of Amazon packages and costs. For Share of Mind sake.

Things I ordered, by quantity:
65% for the kids (bday presents, clothes costume, sports stuff, school materials)
30% for the house (snacks, kitchen items, decor, lawn/pest stuff)
5% for me (cosmetics on sale, snakca)

Things my husband ordered, by quantity):
5% for kids (usually returned, wasn’t listening)
90% for himself (clothes/shoes, electronics, 5+ shavers a year & forgets to pack them)
5% for the house (weird electronics or lights sitting in a pile now)

Dollar value and quantity value vastly ordered by me. Tho his random electronics add up big time (roomba, etc).

Ok? Amazon won't quantify for me the mental labor of dealing with the income taxes, car maintenance, investment management, and all the other things in our household division of labor. While shopping for the shirts and bday presents is annoying I don't want to take on the other tasks so it works for us and more or less evens out.

The crux of the problem is ONE parent will not or cannot see the family’s needs and proactively fulfill them — whether it’s the school’s stated concert attire for a kid, or no more cereal left, or a sick child needing medicine, emotional support of a teen.

Then everything falls onto the OTHER more functional parent, who also still works fulltime, can get an oil change every 5k miles or two years, rebalance a PA, fix a leaky toilet, and meal plan, etc.

I mean what good is knowing how to fix a leaky toilet if you’re too lazy to walk by said leaky toilet and do something about it asap or later that day. You need a royal invitation from your wife?

I’m sorry your husband is like that but don’t presume everyone is reading and nodding along.

DP. A lot of women have this issue with their husbands. It's understandable that we would seek to commiserate somewhere. That's what is happening here.

What I don't understand is why there are apparently so many women with husbands who are not like this who need to devote time to this thread and expressing disbelief that any men are like this, or claiming it's just one or something. It's obviously not. It's a trope for a reason.

Trying to convince everyone that buying the dress and cookies is the biggest problem in a marriage is why you’re getting such push back. Men have figured out that this is nonsense, women either want to do this or don’t like the way their husbands compete these non essential tasks and then want to martyr themselves over it. It’s hard to muster up a lot of sympathy over this. Just drop the rope. Send the kid with whatever she has in her closet that’s close enough. Let the cookies go. It doesn’t really matter.

What if your kid tells you it matters?

FWIW, I'm a woman who works full-time and I do find certain things to be stupid wastes of time and therefore just don't do them. However, if my child cared about something, I would ignore the fact that I think it's dumb and would probably do it for them. Because that's part of being a parent. So I'm a little surprised that you think YOUR opinion is the only one that matters. You must not work either, because every job I've ever had has some parts that I don't think need to be done but do them nonetheless. It's called life.

So why get mad at your husband because you wanted to do something? You want to make your kid happy, that's a choice. Do you write a two act play about it if it's just life?

I'm not the OP and thankfully I married someone who also wants to make our kids happy.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There definitely seems like a distinct lack of conversation here around who is doing what in this particular play.

But, I also think all this dictating of exactly what kids have to wear for events by the powers that be is madness. In our school, I find the teachers often don’t mention the dress code until the Monday of the week you need it — instead of the week before when normal people could coordinate over the weekend. It makes me totally insane. For example, I’m the mom who travels for work and also makes virtually all our income. But suddenly, my kid tells me Monday night (when I’m in Chicago) that she needs a red dress for Thursday. I’m getting home late Tuesday night and have to work Wednesday. So, the first chance I would have to deal with this is really Wednesday night. And the performance is Thursday!! So, I’m telling my husband that in addition to solo parenting on Monday and Tuesday night for our 16 year old who has a rare genetic disorder and is cognitively a baby (he has to feed her, change her diaper, etc), he needs to drag her out to the store with the other kid to look for the special red dress that she now needs. Or we have to convince my kid to wear some garbage dress that we can overnight from Amazon, which she won’t be happy with and is just bad for the environment since she will never wear it again.

This whole situation is ridiculously unfavorable to the less wealthy. Frankly, I have plenty of money and I’m not interested in buying some one off thing my kid will probably refuse to wear again.

And those of you who think this crap isn’t a pain in the butt mystify me. Of course, doing this one time isn’t the end of the world. But the intensive parenting that is a monster created by our current culture is very challenging. And even though I’m a pretty ardent feminist, Phyllis Shafly wasn’t totally wrong to question why women would want to go to work and do all the work of a housewife. We taught women they could bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan. No one said to the men, “hey, you are really going to have to learn to make the breakfast for your whole family proactively just because you know it has to be done.” I would argue I have one of the most equitable marriages out there, but studies show over and over that my life is the anomaly.

I completely agree and empathize with everything you are saying.

Except the bolded part - and I'm being picky given your particular situation, but it's generalizable - but why is it that YOU tell your husband he has to get a dress for his kid? I have girls so they are more likely to come to me, the woman, for dresses. I also however wonder about this general dynamic where it's the mother's job to delegate or do. Why is it that the woman are being both the housewives AND the workers?

DP

Both parents should be co-delegating. The division of delegating can shift back-and-forth based on circumstances. But both parents should be able and willing to share delegation responsibilities.

-dress critic

This is completely inefficient to have two people decide every thing together. That isn't even delegating that's leading by committee which takes a lot of time slows things down than having specialists.

Why can't you grasp that BOTH people can be capable of reading the email and doing the task?

The vet sends a reminder email that it's time for your dog's annual shots. Whoever sees the email first responds and makes the appointment and puts it in the calendar. I wouldn't have a dog, much less a child, with someone who was less capable than I was at handling basic tasks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems the OP is complaining that she is shouldering more of the burden for kid-related activities (a shock, I know).

However, she does not mention what her DH was doing while she was getting the correct dress for her DD, etc. The answer to this question has a material impact here.

For example, if he is a vascular surgeon earning 90% of the household income, then she has little right to complain since he is earning the lion's share of their household income (HHI). BTW - My opinion would remain the same if the genders were reversed (i.e., she was the surgeon and he was out buying the red dress).

If both are contributing the same amount to their HHI, he should pick up half the kid-related tasks. If one outearns the other, the lower earner should pick up more of the slack. The math is simple: the higher earner in the family should focus more on their job to ensure they (as a unit) earn the most together.

I really don't like this argument, that HHI is the way we measure contribution to the household. What if my nonprofit job which is arguably better for my family to see me doing and the world makes 1/10 as much as some man who works 1/2 the time but makes twice the money? And by the way, women make less money on the dollar for the same jobs, so shoud that mean they have to make up for it with other household tasks?

Yeah, agree that's BS. Especially since there are plenty of people with sedentary desk jobs that are conducive to doing the kind of family admin OP is talking about, that pay more than very active jobs with very little downtime for personal admin. Like consider a couple where he's an accountant at a large company with regular hours and sits behind a desk all day making 200k, but she's a 2nd grade teacher making 100k. She spends most of her work day on her feet and interacting with kids and has extremely limited time during the day to sit at a computer and do things like make doctor's appointments or order a new pair of shows for a kid who outgrew theirs. The DH in that scenario is obviously better positioned to do that kind of admin work, even though he makes twice as much, because his job is way more conducive to it. And no one can argue his job is more fundamentally important, either.

My husband and I have always viewed it as time spent ACTUALLY working is what matters. We have both out-earned each other over the years, but there are times when one of us is very busy with work or has travel or is generally stressed, so that's when the other person steps up. It doesn't matter who is contributing what to the joint checking account. My best friend is a teacher (but doesn't earn $100K!) and her husband has a desk job where he slightly out-earns her but works significantly less hard. He even comes home from work for an hour every day for lunch (they don't live in the DC area and his commute is under 10 minutes). But because his day ends at 5 pm and hers ends at 3 pm, she shoulders the majority of the kid-related tasks. He could do 99% of the administrative stuff and actually could more easily take leave to do stuff but he doesn't. He grew up with a SAHM and his dad was always treated like the king so he thinks he's important even though he makes under $100K and works 1/100th as hard as she does.

Consistently using your time at work to take care of personal matters is a good way to get fired. Then your friend will be missing the higher income from that "easy" job.

You do realize that this talk undercuts the validity of the initial concept of emotional labor, right?

[Anonymous]

I only read the op so sorry if this was mentioned but it reminds me of the new Rose Byrn movie If I Had Legs I'd Kick You.
I don't think I've ever identified as a mother with a horror movie more than that and I think someone must have been taking notes from my life. Its not exactly horror but it feels that way when they magnify all the weight of life and dismissive attitudes towards a mom's load.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My husband and I have always viewed it as time spent ACTUALLY working is what matters. We have both out-earned each other over the years, but there are times when one of us is very busy with work or has travel or is generally stressed, so that's when the other person steps up. It doesn't matter who is contributing what to the joint checking account. My best friend is a teacher (but doesn't earn $100K!) and her husband has a desk job where he slightly out-earns her but works significantly less hard. He even comes home from work for an hour every day for lunch (they don't live in the DC area and his commute is under 10 minutes). But because his day ends at 5 pm and hers ends at 3 pm, she shoulders the majority of the kid-related tasks. He could do 99% of the administrative stuff and actually could more easily take leave to do stuff but he doesn't. He grew up with a SAHM and his dad was always treated like the king so he thinks he's important even though he makes under $100K and works 1/100th as hard as she does.

Or he could declare that all his tasks are necessary "needs" and questioning any particular one of them is "not the point".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

Right. I definitely feel like a child writing and receiving an award for a speech is capable of getting a birthday present and saying dad my show is on x day and time be there.
Alot of this mental load stuff is being a parent and the struggle is created by the need for rigid control, and refusal to delegate

What kid is getting a birthday present? Do you allow your kids to surf your Amazon account and make their own purchases? Because most people don't want their kids to do that.

Lol, right? That person’s kids also buy their own clothes.
They can’t bake cookies though…

By the time they are 13 they are buying their own clothes. They have a budget and if they want to do in store shopping they tell us if they want a ride


Younger kids are capable of being told go to your room and get a red sweater or a green shirt

You just think you have all the answers! But oops! No red dress. Or that green shirt from last year is now 2 sizes too small. What now super mom?

Then either their dad or I buy one or take them to buy it. You do have to do somethings for kids because they are kids. Were you under the impression that you birth them and then magically stuff just happens for 18 years?

Maybe you just have undiagnosed ADHD so basic things are very challenging for you

Nobody says it's hard. But you seem stuck on these very simple tasks. But in a day there are so many very simple tasks. Someone has to do them. And husbands would say they are focused on many other tasks just not the buying shirt tasks. For my house our division of labor is pretty even but no, my husband doesn't have to do the shirt but he is leaving work early today to take the car for an oil change.

I just had AI tally our last five years of Amazon packages and costs. For Share of Mind sake.

Things I ordered, by quantity:
65% for the kids (bday presents, clothes costume, sports stuff, school materials)
30% for the house (snacks, kitchen items, decor, lawn/pest stuff)
5% for me (cosmetics on sale, snakca)

Things my husband ordered, by quantity):
5% for kids (usually returned, wasn’t listening)
90% for himself (clothes/shoes, electronics, 5+ shavers a year & forgets to pack them)
5% for the house (weird electronics or lights sitting in a pile now)

Dollar value and quantity value vastly ordered by me. Tho his random electronics add up big time (roomba, etc).

Ok? Amazon won't quantify for me the mental labor of dealing with the income taxes, car maintenance, investment management, and all the other things in our household division of labor. While shopping for the shirts and bday presents is annoying I don't want to take on the other tasks so it works for us and more or less evens out.

The crux of the problem is ONE parent will not or cannot see the family’s needs and proactively fulfill them — whether it’s the school’s stated concert attire for a kid, or no more cereal left, or a sick child needing medicine, emotional support of a teen.

Then everything falls onto the OTHER more functional parent, who also still works fulltime, can get an oil change every 5k miles or two years, rebalance a PA, fix a leaky toilet, and meal plan, etc.

I mean what good is knowing how to fix a leaky toilet if you’re too lazy to walk by said leaky toilet and do something about it asap or later that day. You need a royal invitation from your wife?

I’m sorry your husband is like that but don’t presume everyone is reading and nodding along.

DP. A lot of women have this issue with their husbands. It's understandable that we would seek to commiserate somewhere. That's what is happening here.

What I don't understand is why there are apparently so many women with husbands who are not like this who need to devote time to this thread and expressing disbelief that any men are like this, or claiming it's just one or something. It's obviously not. It's a trope for a reason.

I'm a woman with a husband who is not like this. I would say that I feel sympathy for people who are married to people (I could say men since it's mostly men but sometimes it's women) like this BUT I also can't stand the posts where people say that ALL men are useless. They're not. I know a ton of great ones. So I have no problem with YOU saying your husband sucks, and I'm sorry for you. But the people who insist it's all men are annoying. I know ONE guy like that, and another that I think is kind of a loser but does a lot more than OP's husband. I know dozens who aren't like that. So it bothers me when people say oh all men suck, welcome to being a woman. If I thought that were true I would tell my daughters to never get married (I hope that's what anyone who says all men are awful is doing, otherwise you're a hypocrite), but instead I tell them to find someone like their grandpa and dad.

How would you know how involved the husband is with anything day to day if all you do is see him at the concert or the meet or the BbQ party talking about work?

Face it, you have no idea how most households function or what goes on behind closed doors. Unless you take a long long vacation with them, or start asking real questions (what do you think of the math teacher or coach or new XYZ) or the wife pulls you aside and tells you the ugly truth.

I know because I've been friends with these people for decades, because we do take long vacations with them, because we step up when someone needs help (parent severely ill, parent deployed, etc.), we do have real conversations (do you seriously only have surface-level friendships?), and yes, we discuss the ugly truth with our friends. I could list a million reasons why I have a very good idea what goes on in a lot of my friends' households but it doesn't matter, you'll still argue with me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

I don’t think you actually have elementary schoolers. Or that you are responsible for them anyway.
The only thing most elementary schoolers could do on the OP’s list without any help is make the cookies. And that’s the only thing you outsourced.

Maybe your elementary schoolers are a little slow? Mine know their colors. If I asked my daughter to get her green shirt, she would do so. If I remind my 4th grader to get her red dress, she'd go get it.

You're missing the point entirely. The husband isn't the issue here. The OP's inability to communicate and play the martyr is.

Are you really this dumb or are you being purposefully obtuse? The point is that not everyone already has a green shirt or a red dress. Neither of my daughters has either of those things - they aren't colors they like to wear. So yeah, my kids can pick out the green shirt from the closet if it's there, but they can't drive themselves to the mall to purchase one if it's not.

Why is a red dress necessary for caroling?

How would wearing an existing article of clothing prevent the caroling?

And does this child even want to sing to old people?

You're using strawmen here.

That's not what a strawman is.

And the PP raises a good point. OP is all bent out of shape that her DH isn't helping with something that is not all that important. They can teach the kid not to care about stupid stuff like that. Or if it is so important to OP to go along with the dumb thing from the school, she can do it herself. But why should her priorities control?

R u kidding?

Most of life with kids the dad just shows up at the final thing, with no effort or aid or care of any of the steps leading up to it. Vacations, concerts, holidays, training, college apps, therapies, teen relationships, funerals, weddings, games or meets, graduations, parties, update letters, health treatments, big item purchases even.

They literally do nothing but focus on themselves or work, then show up to pretend they were part of something they had nothing to do with.

In OP’s three examples it was some concert, school field trip, and what not. She probably has 100 more examples as well.

Maybe with your loser DH, but not in my household, and not with families in my social circle. Sorry that you picked a loser, and maybe OP did too (although hard to tell from her lame examples), but if your DH is missing all of that, you shouldn't have married him, and you surely shouldn't have had kids with him.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

I don’t think you actually have elementary schoolers. Or that you are responsible for them anyway.
The only thing most elementary schoolers could do on the OP’s list without any help is make the cookies. And that’s the only thing you outsourced.

Maybe your elementary schoolers are a little slow? Mine know their colors. If I asked my daughter to get her green shirt, she would do so. If I remind my 4th grader to get her red dress, she'd go get it.

You're missing the point entirely. The husband isn't the issue here. The OP's inability to communicate and play the martyr is.

Are you really this dumb or are you being purposefully obtuse? The point is that not everyone already has a green shirt or a red dress. Neither of my daughters has either of those things - they aren't colors they like to wear. So yeah, my kids can pick out the green shirt from the closet if it's there, but they can't drive themselves to the mall to purchase one if it's not.

Why is a red dress necessary for caroling?

How would wearing an existing article of clothing prevent the caroling?

And does this child even want to sing to old people?

You're using strawmen here.

That's not what a strawman is.

And the PP raises a good point. OP is all bent out of shape that her DH isn't helping with something that is not all that important. They can teach the kid not to care about stupid stuff like that. Or if it is so important to OP to go along with the dumb thing from the school, she can do it herself. But why should her priorities control?

R u kidding?

Most of life with kids the dad just shows up at the final thing, with no effort or aid or care of any of the steps leading up to it. Vacations, concerts, holidays, training, college apps, therapies, teen relationships, funerals, weddings, games or meets, graduations, parties, update letters, health treatments, big item purchases even.

They literally do nothing but focus on themselves or work, then show up to pretend they were part of something they had nothing to do with.

In OP’s three examples it was some concert, school field trip, and what not. She probably has 100 more examples as well.

Maybe with your loser DH, but not in my household, and not with families in my social circle. Sorry that you picked a loser, and maybe OP did too (although hard to tell from her lame examples), but if your DH is missing all of that, you shouldn't have married him, and you surely shouldn't have had kids with him.

+1000

What that OP is not copping to is that there is some cultural or religious aspect at play that causes so much dissatisfaction in her marriage but she is obligated to stay in it. That's not how must American women go about their relationships which is why her complaints and generlizations about men are missing their mark and not resonating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

I don’t think you actually have elementary schoolers. Or that you are responsible for them anyway.
The only thing most elementary schoolers could do on the OP’s list without any help is make the cookies. And that’s the only thing you outsourced.

Maybe your elementary schoolers are a little slow? Mine know their colors. If I asked my daughter to get her green shirt, she would do so. If I remind my 4th grader to get her red dress, she'd go get it.

You're missing the point entirely. The husband isn't the issue here. The OP's inability to communicate and play the martyr is.

Are you really this dumb or are you being purposefully obtuse? The point is that not everyone already has a green shirt or a red dress. Neither of my daughters has either of those things - they aren't colors they like to wear. So yeah, my kids can pick out the green shirt from the closet if it's there, but they can't drive themselves to the mall to purchase one if it's not.

Why is a red dress necessary for caroling?

How would wearing an existing article of clothing prevent the caroling?

And does this child even want to sing to old people?

You're using strawmen here.

That's not what a strawman is.

And the PP raises a good point. OP is all bent out of shape that her DH isn't helping with something that is not all that important. They can teach the kid not to care about stupid stuff like that. Or if it is so important to OP to go along with the dumb thing from the school, she can do it herself. But why should her priorities control?

R u kidding?

Most of life with kids the dad just shows up at the final thing, with no effort or aid or care of any of the steps leading up to it. Vacations, concerts, holidays, training, college apps, therapies, teen relationships, funerals, weddings, games or meets, graduations, parties, update letters, health treatments, big item purchases even.

They literally do nothing but focus on themselves or work, then show up to pretend they were part of something they had nothing to do with.

In OP’s three examples it was some concert, school field trip, and what not. She probably has 100 more examples as well.

Maybe with your loser DH, but not in my household, and not with families in my social circle. Sorry that you picked a loser, and maybe OP did too (although hard to tell from her lame examples), but if your DH is missing all of that, you shouldn't have married him, and you surely shouldn't have had kids with him.

+1000

What that OP is not copping to is that there is some cultural or religious aspect at play that causes so much dissatisfaction in her marriage but she is obligated to stay in it. That's not how must American women go about their relationships which is why her complaints and generlizations about men are missing their mark and not resonating.

I meant the PP not OP (who may or may not be in the same boat).

[Anonymous]

It’s not fair to blame this on marrying poorly. People can’t imagine what life with kids looks like. Especially now as there is so much pressure to be and do it all as a kid.

The way that the OP described it: that’s a crazy week. Before it starts you have to plan out who is doing what and what they are shopping for. The outfit stuff would make me angry. That’s a level of complexity that’s totally unnecessary. I’ve never had that experience but maybe my kids are just more average. But my husband and I would write it all out on a little chalkboard and determine logistics in advance.

This sounds like intensive parenting designed to launch kids into the T20. Presuming enough money, that would seem to require a SAHP. If not enough money, a downgrade in expectations if joint planning as described above wouldn’t work due to lack of cooperation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

I don’t think you actually have elementary schoolers. Or that you are responsible for them anyway.
The only thing most elementary schoolers could do on the OP’s list without any help is make the cookies. And that’s the only thing you outsourced.

Maybe your elementary schoolers are a little slow? Mine know their colors. If I asked my daughter to get her green shirt, she would do so. If I remind my 4th grader to get her red dress, she'd go get it.

You're missing the point entirely. The husband isn't the issue here. The OP's inability to communicate and play the martyr is.

Are you really this dumb or are you being purposefully obtuse? The point is that not everyone already has a green shirt or a red dress. Neither of my daughters has either of those things - they aren't colors they like to wear. So yeah, my kids can pick out the green shirt from the closet if it's there, but they can't drive themselves to the mall to purchase one if it's not.

Why is a red dress necessary for caroling?

How would wearing an existing article of clothing prevent the caroling?

And does this child even want to sing to old people?

You're using strawmen here.

That's not what a strawman is.

And the PP raises a good point. OP is all bent out of shape that her DH isn't helping with something that is not all that important. They can teach the kid not to care about stupid stuff like that. Or if it is so important to OP to go along with the dumb thing from the school, she can do it herself. But why should her priorities control?

R u kidding?

Most of life with kids the dad just shows up at the final thing, with no effort or aid or care of any of the steps leading up to it. Vacations, concerts, holidays, training, college apps, therapies, teen relationships, funerals, weddings, games or meets, graduations, parties, update letters, health treatments, big item purchases even.

They literally do nothing but focus on themselves or work, then show up to pretend they were part of something they had nothing to do with.

In OP’s three examples it was some concert, school field trip, and what not. She probably has 100 more examples as well.

Maybe with your loser DH, but not in my household, and not with families in my social circle. Sorry that you picked a loser, and maybe OP did too (although hard to tell from her lame examples), but if your DH is missing all of that, you shouldn't have married him, and you surely shouldn't have had kids with him.

+1000

What that OP is not copping to is that there is some cultural or religious aspect at play that causes so much dissatisfaction in her marriage but she is obligated to stay in it. That's not how must American women go about their relationships which is why her complaints and generlizations about men are missing their mark and not resonating.

Once kids are involved and be parent is revealed as totally dysfunctional, you are quite stuck. Only bad options. Nothing cultural about it. The white people gray divorce stats support this.