Question for parents of black children in Montgomery County.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

facility? I don't know. Teacher quality? I don't know of tests that teachers take routinely for their "quality". But I do know tests students take routinely, and their scores reflect some quality of the school.

Of course, it is your choice. If you don't care about student scores from schools, just say it.

Oh, the stats you're using are student scores on standardized tests. We've been through that. They don't measure teacher quality or facility quality. They measure students' family background. By that measure, the "best schools" are the schools with the most students from wealthy families. A silly way to define "best schools", in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
facility? I don't know. Teacher quality? I don't know of tests that teachers take routinely for their "quality". But I do know tests students take routinely, and their scores reflect some quality of the school.

Of course, it is your choice. If you don't care about student scores from schools, just say it.

Reposting the facility quality since I messed up the quotes:

Here's statistics on facility quality:
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/facilities/kfi/

Generally, the schools with higher FARMS have better quality facilities simply because they are newer. Downcounty has lower FARMS but the areas have been around longer so the buildings are older. On average -- there are exceptions to both cases.

[Anonymous]

If we want to use test scores, I'd look at schools where each demographic group outperforms the state average for that group and how they compare to other schools.

So, folks upthread say Bethesda schools are better.

However, Black kids at Takoma Park MS outperform Black kids at Westland MS.

White kids at Takoma Park MS also outperform White kids at Westland.

At each demographic subgroup, kids at TPMS outperform kids at WMS.

So why do we think Bethesda schools are better? Because the proportion of each group is different, even though each group is doing better at the more diverse school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

facility? I don't know. Teacher quality? I don't know of tests that teachers take routinely for their "quality". But I do know tests students take routinely, and their scores reflect some quality of the school.

Of course, it is your choice. If you don't care about student scores from schools, just say it.

Oh, the stats you're using are student scores on standardized tests. We've been through that. They don't measure teacher quality or facility quality. They measure students' family background. By that measure, the "best schools" are the schools with the most students from wealthy families. A silly way to define "best schools", in my opinion.

As I said, you choose your own standards. Many people like it when (students in) schools perform well, I don't see anything silly in that. Most of us are not educators and we do not care what student scores "really" measure, in addition to student performance itself. Discrict administrators may want to know that in order to make other schools perform better but as parents who want to choose schools (instead of improving schools), we don't care.

No one is forcing you to define "best" based on student scores. You can try to persuade those who use that standard into not doing so but please be respectful to other people's choices. I would avoid calling something many people do as "stupid".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:TPES/PBES in 20912 and ESS in 20910 are your safest bet for school and neighborhood in the DCC. There are also a few language immersion ES. If your kids are gifted, they will have middle and high school magnet options.

Both my kids had the experience of being the only AA kids or one of two in certain classes. Until HS, that was my older DD’s sole experience. My younger DD rotates her classes with another kid from a middle class AA family, 1-2 kids from African immigrant families, or the handful of black kids adopted by white parents.

Also recommend Stonegate ES further north in Silver Spring. AA kids are a plurality at this school, and it has a local CES for 4th and 5th graders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If we want to use test scores, I'd look at schools where each demographic group outperforms the state average for that group and how they compare to other schools.

So, folks upthread say Bethesda schools are better.

However, Black kids at Takoma Park MS outperform Black kids at Westland MS.

White kids at Takoma Park MS also outperform White kids at Westland.

At each demographic subgroup, kids at TPMS outperform kids at WMS.

So why do we think Bethesda schools are better? Because the proportion of each group is different, even though each group is doing better at the more diverse school.

You can do that. And you can also try to convince others to do that. See if people care more about how a school can help different demographic groups, or whether trying to avoid schools with larger portion of lower performing students (even if it is not the fault of the school and its teachers). Again, it is people's choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Racial bias is very prevalent in our experience at one of the diverse schools in MCPS. When you have a school where the black kids are more often than not poor and not doing well in school teachers start stereotyping all black kids. It seems to be worse for boys than girls. Its small things like having lower expectations or assuming the worst about a kid.

The bigger problem is socially when the classes start splitting up into CES, compacted math, magnets, AP classes. The white kids fill up those classes and your kid is back to being one of the few black kids in the class even though you are in a diverse school. You don't want your kid hanging out with kids who are failing, skipping school and getting in trouble but it is not good that your kid has to reject being around the other black kids. The school within a school model in MCPS may attract more white people into certain neighborhoods but it doesn't provide a good environment for black kids. I suspect hispanic parents feel the same.


I am confused. Do you imply that for acadamically able AA students it is better for them to be in a school has less other AA students? Or do you think itis better for MCPS stopping offering advanced classes so everyone will be on the same page?

Not exactly. Ideally, there would be a school with a critical mass of academically able AA and white kids along with a critical mass of academically challenged AA and white kids. The problem is SES and race. In MCPS, AA usually means poor. Poor usually means academically challenged. White people in these schools do not understand what it is like when everyone else who looks like you is failing and everyone who doesn't look like you is succeeding. The CES, magnets and AP classes just magnify this by 100. Its a myth that choosing a more diverse school in MCPS gives you a better experience with racial equity. Its the exact opposite!

Ironically, I hear from friends in VA that it isn't as bad over there with the AAP system. I don't have direct experience with those schools so I can't confirm whether this is true. It might also be the case that MCPS is just so overly focused on race that this plays out negatively while VA is less focused on it. I personally would not live in VA so I don't know.

This problem in MCPS though is why so many higher SES black parents choose to live in PG and do private schools, or accept being one of the only black kids in a W school or being one of only a handful of black kids at a more elite predominantly white private school. There just are no good options.

Wait, wait...
Did you just type "one of the only black kids in a W school??".

I've been a full time substitute teacher at Walter Johnson for the past 10 years and I can tell you with the utmost confidence, that every single class I taught last year had an average of 7-10 AA kids in it.

Yes, I understand that if there are 30 kids total in the class & 10 are AA, they are still represented as a minority. However, that's a far cry from your lie that OP's kids will be "one of the only black kids in a W school".

In the entire school? Really??

Walter Johnson has a wonderfully diverse student body & those numbers on the first page do not represent how well all of our cultures, races & religions work together.
If you walk down our halls, there are kids of every ethnicity represented in the friend groups I see.
Very rarely have I ever seen one large group of strictly white kids and that's because our school does a phenomenal job of promoting inclusiveness.

Do your children go to Walter Johnson?
Have you ever seen the school or its student body in person?
I'm guessing the answer is probably NO, right?

So, before you make another comment littered with lies, you should probably come to
our school & check it out first... maybe come to a football gam? Then you can see for yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,

The truth is that bullying and racism exist in all private and public schools. As a mixed race foreigner who lived in multiple countries, I have always had to adjust because I have never been part of the established majority in any given country.

Pick great schools, period. Bethesda has the best schools. Seriously, MCPS are not created equal. I know, because we moved around and I compared schools. I also have friends in various school clusters with whom I compare schools.

The rest is about raising your kids to brush off micro-aggressions and self-advocate when they encounter overt racism. You will support and accompany them on that path.

IMO, as a non white person, I would not choose a school that has very little minority children. By PP's own admission, PP had to adjust because PP was always in the minority. That couldn't be helped in the foreign countries that PP probably lived in. But here in MoCo? There is so much diversity even in good schools, why would you purposefully choose a school that had little diversity, and low representation of your kid's background such that your kid would be forced to "adjust"?

Well, I didn't want to get into it, but some posters have already said it: schools with many black students still have a bias against them because many such students are poor and do not perform well in school. So if you don't want to be stereotyped as poor, under-achieving black student, please don't make the mistake of seeing diversity as a draw in these schools. If you can afford it, it's better to go to a school in a wealthier area, where there will be fewer black students, but where poverty and under-achievement, which in people's minds go hand-in-hand, will not be automatically assumed of you. My kids spent some years in Bethesda Elementary, for instance: there were extremely few blacks students, but they were top of their class and went on to magnets.

I am very serious about this, PP. "Diversity" is a concept that is not well understood by most people.

I'm a white poster, so maybe I should shut up and not say anything, but I thought I'd share my perspective on two different schools I went to. One was about 50/50 Anglo-white, and Latino. It was a bused school and the Latinos were from a very poor and challenged area of the city, whereas the anglo whites were not. The two groups did not mix at all socially, and really only in things like gym class. I suspect it was rough to be one of the few middle income Latinos with educated parents in that school. A different school I went to was more of a random mix of people. I had a lot of friends who were Latino, and who came from all income levels, and there were a lot more Latinos in my advanced classes at that school, even though the percentage of Latinos was lower at that school (maybe 20-30% instead of 50%). So I can see what PP is saying that pure numbers don't always tell the story. The best "diverse" schools have a real mix of people from different backgrounds, imo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You can do that. And you can also try to convince others to do that. See if people care more about how a school can help different demographic groups, or whether trying to avoid schools with larger portion of lower performing students (even if it is not the fault of the school and its teachers). Again, it is people's choice.

No, it isn't. Unless you define people as "people with lots of money." Which is not unknown, on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

facility? I don't know. Teacher quality? I don't know of tests that teachers take routinely for their "quality". But I do know tests students take routinely, and their scores reflect some quality of the school.

Of course, it is your choice. If you don't care about student scores from schools, just say it.

Oh, the stats you're using are student scores on standardized tests. We've been through that. They don't measure teacher quality or facility quality. They measure students' family background. By that measure, the "best schools" are the schools with the most students from wealthy families. A silly way to define "best schools", in my opinion.

Yes, it measures the schools with the fewest poor kids. This mostly a way to prop up real estate values. It has little impact on individual outcomes. For example, most schools with SES diversity also have a sufficiently large high-achieving cohort. The difference between these schools is one offers 4 sections of AP English while the less affluent school only offers 3.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Racial bias is very prevalent in our experience at one of the diverse schools in MCPS. When you have a school where the black kids are more often than not poor and not doing well in school teachers start stereotyping all black kids. It seems to be worse for boys than girls. Its small things like having lower expectations or assuming the worst about a kid.

The bigger problem is socially when the classes start splitting up into CES, compacted math, magnets, AP classes. The white kids fill up those classes and your kid is back to being one of the few black kids in the class even though you are in a diverse school. You don't want your kid hanging out with kids who are failing, skipping school and getting in trouble but it is not good that your kid has to reject being around the other black kids. The school within a school model in MCPS may attract more white people into certain neighborhoods but it doesn't provide a good environment for black kids. I suspect hispanic parents feel the same.


I am confused. Do you imply that for acadamically able AA students it is better for them to be in a school has less other AA students? Or do you think itis better for MCPS stopping offering advanced classes so everyone will be on the same page?

Not exactly. Ideally, there would be a school with a critical mass of academically able AA and white kids along with a critical mass of academically challenged AA and white kids. The problem is SES and race. In MCPS, AA usually means poor. Poor usually means academically challenged. White people in these schools do not understand what it is like when everyone else who looks like you is failing and everyone who doesn't look like you is succeeding. The CES, magnets and AP classes just magnify this by 100. Its a myth that choosing a more diverse school in MCPS gives you a better experience with racial equity. Its the exact opposite!

Ironically, I hear from friends in VA that it isn't as bad over there with the AAP system. I don't have direct experience with those schools so I can't confirm whether this is true. It might also be the case that MCPS is just so overly focused on race that this plays out negatively while VA is less focused on it. I personally would not live in VA so I don't know.

This problem in MCPS though is why so many higher SES black parents choose to live in PG and do private schools, or accept being one of the only black kids in a W school or being one of only a handful of black kids at a more elite predominantly white private school. There just are no good options.

There is a reason why many black parents choose not to live in NoVa area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If we want to use test scores, I'd look at schools where each demographic group outperforms the state average for that group and how they compare to other schools.

So, folks upthread say Bethesda schools are better.

However, Black kids at Takoma Park MS outperform Black kids at Westland MS.

White kids at Takoma Park MS also outperform White kids at Westland.

At each demographic subgroup, kids at TPMS outperform kids at WMS.

So why do we think Bethesda schools are better? Because the proportion of each group is different, even though each group is doing better at the more diverse school.

Funny that you chose that one school... I'm sure that wasnt a mistake, now was it?

Well, if you're gonna compare MS's let's do it all, shall we?
Let's compare every MS in the county and we'll see what we come up with when you're not cherry picking ONE school for comparisons sake.

Where's your source on outperformance?
I'd love to compare all of the middle schools and see if your theory really shakes out, or if you just chose a niche school to attempt to make a point.

I'm pretty sure we all know the answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can do that. And you can also try to convince others to do that. See if people care more about how a school can help different demographic groups, or whether trying to avoid schools with larger portion of lower performing students (even if it is not the fault of the school and its teachers). Again, it is people's choice.

No, it isn't. Unless you define people as "people with lots of money." Which is not unknown, on DCUM.

Picking the standards of defining a good/bad school, is people's choice. Whether they can get their kids to go to a good school, may not be. We are talking about the former.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we want to use test scores, I'd look at schools where each demographic group outperforms the state average for that group and how they compare to other schools.

So, folks upthread say Bethesda schools are better.

However, Black kids at Takoma Park MS outperform Black kids at Westland MS.

White kids at Takoma Park MS also outperform White kids at Westland.

At each demographic subgroup, kids at TPMS outperform kids at WMS.

So why do we think Bethesda schools are better? Because the proportion of each group is different, even though each group is doing better at the more diverse school.

Funny that you chose that one school... I'm sure that wasnt a mistake, now was it?

Well, if you're gonna compare MS's let's do it all, shall we?
Let's compare every MS in the county and we'll see what we come up with when you're not cherry picking ONE school for comparisons sake.

Where's your source on outperformance?
I'd love to compare all of the middle schools and see if your theory really shakes out, or if you just chose a niche school to attempt to make a point.

I'm pretty sure we all know the answer.

I'm the PP, and chose TPMS because that was one of the schools folks were recommending for OP.

The comment on outperformance comes from the percentage of kids in each subgroup getting a 4 or 5 on MCAP. In each group, there was a higher percentage of kids at TPMS passing than at WMS.

All of this goes to demonstrate that the folks upthread saying "Bethesda schools are better, full stop" are not only wrong when it comes to Black kids, they are wrong with it comes to all kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we want to use test scores, I'd look at schools where each demographic group outperforms the state average for that group and how they compare to other schools.

So, folks upthread say Bethesda schools are better.

However, Black kids at Takoma Park MS outperform Black kids at Westland MS.

White kids at Takoma Park MS also outperform White kids at Westland.

At each demographic subgroup, kids at TPMS outperform kids at WMS.

So why do we think Bethesda schools are better? Because the proportion of each group is different, even though each group is doing better at the more diverse school.

Funny that you chose that one school... I'm sure that wasnt a mistake, now was it?

Well, if you're gonna compare MS's let's do it all, shall we?
Let's compare every MS in the county and we'll see what we come up with when you're not cherry picking ONE school for comparisons sake.

Where's your source on outperformance?
I'd love to compare all of the middle schools and see if your theory really shakes out, or if you just chose a niche school to attempt to make a point.

I'm pretty sure we all know the answer.

I'm the PP, and chose TPMS because that was one of the schools folks were recommending for OP.

The comment on outperformance comes from the percentage of kids in each subgroup getting a 4 or 5 on MCAP. In each group, there was a higher percentage of kids at TPMS passing than at WMS.

All of this goes to demonstrate that the folks upthread saying "Bethesda schools are better, full stop" are not only wrong when it comes to Black kids, they are wrong with it comes to all kids.

Isn't TPMS a magnet school, or am I mixing it up with another school? Doesn't seem fair to compare a magnet school to a non-magnet school.