Do you actively or unintentionally discourage your daughters ....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a small rural town in Minnesota, and my parents NEVER talked about my future life as a mother or a wife. They encouraged me to be a curious child, educate myself, and contribute to society. Discussions of baby names, dream husbands, and the like, never happened.

I’m from the south, but same.

Two questions. One: you don't think that devoting yourself to motherhood is "contributing to society?" Two, what exactly is your wonderful contribution?

+1. And why is "discussion of baby names, dream husbands, etc" such a forbidden topic of conversation? Don't most people want to eventually settle down with someone they love and have children with them? Why do we have to act like something that is normal and desired by most humans is something that can't be discussed with our kids. Especially, heaven forbid, our daughters?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I specifically discourage becoming an MD/DO, because for most women it's statistically not a good choice financially (let alone otherwise). Female doctors flock to lower-paid specialties compatible with having a life, and don't work enough hours to justify the tuition and forgone salary of med school + residency.

Then how is she supposed to meet her future husband, the surgeon who makes the big bucks?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From intense careers. I'm in twenties and realize alot of my friends feel pressure from parents to consider childbearing when deciding on a career, even if they do not have children or a boyfriend. It leads to my friends not pursuing higher paying fields. For example, my friends in med school say their moms are worried about their careers and future marriages/ children if they pursue surgery. This makes them want to lean towards lesser paying, family friendly specialties... I don't think these parents would pressure their sons in the same way.

I know my response will unleash the wrath of DCUM, but yes I basically do try to discourage my daughter's from having intense careers. I tell them that they need to look at work life balance and try to pick careers where there is more of an ability to work from home. And before anyone asks, no if I had a son, I would not give him the same advice.

Wtf is wrong with you?

[Anonymous]

Opposite for me. Parents pressured for “big” career and I rebelled and did the opposite knowing I wanted to prioritize family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a small rural town in Minnesota, and my parents NEVER talked about my future life as a mother or a wife. They encouraged me to be a curious child, educate myself, and contribute to society. Discussions of baby names, dream husbands, and the like, never happened.

I’m from the south, but same.

Two questions. One: you don't think that devoting yourself to motherhood is "contributing to society?" Two, what exactly is your wonderful contribution?

+1. And why is "discussion of baby names, dream husbands, etc" such a forbidden topic of conversation? Don't most people want to eventually settle down with someone they love and have children with them? Why do we have to act like something that is normal and desired by most humans is something that can't be discussed with our kids. Especially, heaven forbid, our daughters?

Don't twist my words--I never said forbidden. We just had more interesting things to talk about. You know, it's not a black and white world. I fell in love and have a wonderful family, and yet, my childhood didn't revolve around it. But you just want to be dramatic and defensive, so go on with your hyperbole and "god forbids."

[Anonymous]

I think when our daughters are on the job market things will have changed a bit in this country. The current situation, in which highly educated women must contend with systems created under patriarchal conditions, is unsustainable.

That said, I do think it is possible to “have it all,” with two caveats. No one said it would be easy, and no one said at the same time. I am lucky in that I achieved the promotions I need to be senior enough that my career will not be mommy tracked even if I now flex my hours a lot. But this was done without 2 kids under 5, and the past few years have definitely involved a great deal of juggling to stay involved in my kids’ lives to the degree that I want and still advance.

Regardless, I will definitely talk with my kids about trade offs, stages of life, and all the rest. But it depends largely on them how they want to take it. It’s hard to tell an ambitious woman not to follow her dreams. I would also tell them it’s OK to get support for yourself — household help, night help, good partner — and that feeling ambivalent at times is part of every journey whether you stay at home or work.

[Anonymous]

My best friend from college (female) is a successful pediatrician and when she's drunk she has a tendency to say she regrets becoming an MD! Yet me and all of our college friends are jealous of her success.

Her current relationship is with a married MD in his 50s. She claims she wishes she chose a more carefree living and fantasizes about how fun it would be to be a cute/fit stay-at-home mom who married well (her words). So I'm not sure if she really hates her career choice or is just blaming her career choice for lack of spouse and no kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My best friend from college (female) is a successful pediatrician and when she's drunk she has a tendency to say she regrets becoming an MD! Yet me and all of our college friends are jealous of her success.

Her current relationship is with a married MD in his 50s. She claims she wishes she chose a more carefree living and fantasizes about how fun it would be to be a cute/fit stay-at-home mom who married well (her words). So I'm not sure if she really hates her career choice or is just blaming her career choice for lack of spouse and no kids.

It doesn't seem like the career is the problem here. Maybe if she had the life she fantasizes about, she would instead be fantasizing about being a pediatrician. The grass is always greener, especially when you've been drinking!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think when our daughters are on the job market things will have changed a bit in this country. The current situation, in which highly educated women must contend with systems created under patriarchal conditions, is unsustainable.

That said, I do think it is possible to “have it all,” with two caveats. No one said it would be easy, and no one said at the same time. I am lucky in that I achieved the promotions I need to be senior enough that my career will not be mommy tracked even if I now flex my hours a lot. But this was done without 2 kids under 5, and the past few years have definitely involved a great deal of juggling to stay involved in my kids’ lives to the degree that I want and still advance.

Regardless, I will definitely talk with my kids about trade offs, stages of life, and all the rest. But it depends largely on them how they want to take it. It’s hard to tell an ambitious woman not to follow her dreams. I would also tell them it’s OK to get support for yourself — household help, night help, good partner — and that feeling ambivalent at times is part of every journey whether you stay at home or work.

I agree. I don't think we can build a better workforce for our daughters and simultaneously discourage them from having ambition beyond reproduction. We need more moms like you to help dismantle patriarchy and make a better work-life balance for all people, dads included!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I will make sure my daughters know you can’t have it all. I feel a little lied to. Growing up teachers said we could choose our own fields and that women could be any profession they wanted to be. Except so many work very long hours and don’t have maternity leave. I’m an engineer who has taken two unpaid maternity leaves which did impact my career. My friends who are teachers or nurses were easily able to take off and have maternity leave and then go back to work. Some careers even let you take 2-3 years off and then it’s easy to get a job again.

I think that until we live in a society where men are forced to take paternity leave (4 weeks and then 4 when mom goes back to work) things aren’t going to be equal.

I think that might happen when men are able to have babies.
And I used to think that would NEVER happen, but...there are a lot of things that happen today that 30 years ago people didn't think would be a norm, so...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women and men are not the same. Men do not get pregnant, give birth or breastfeed. So if those things are part of a woman's vision for the future then they need to plan differently than a man or woman who doesn't want those things.

You can't have it all. There are finite hours in a day and a week. Many women (at all) are still more likely to want to spend more time with their children in the early years and many men (not all) are still more likely to want to be the provider for their family. What makes people feel valued and productive and fulfilled varies - and that should drive where they prioritize their time.

I have two siblings - my older brother is an engineer and his wife is a SAHM. My younger brother is a SAHD and his wife is a physician. My brother also does some part time consultant work. It works well for both of them. The more career oriented person is building their career and the more maternal / paternal oriented person is at home with the kids. It was important to my younger brother to maintain some paid employment and so he has. My SAHM SIL has gotten very involved in a couple charitable organizations where she volunteers and that gives her meaning outside of her at home role.

When his kids were really young, my older brother was able to flex his day and be home by 3:30, and he worked from home 1 day a week.

My Dr SIL is now considering a chance so she can be home more as she is finding she is missing too much of her kids lives.

If you put your time and effort into what you need to feel productive and fuilfilled and then shift that as time goes, that to me is the best of both worlds.

I think we will see a rise in SAHDs when our kids are older. There is a recognition of a benefit to one parent taking on the kids while the other focuses on career, and I think this next generation will be more open to dads taking on that role than our own was.

This.
People are always saying "men didn't have to choose...they get to be a career man AND a parent"...but that wasn't the case at all. Traditionally, DAD was a career man b/c that was his role in the division of labor arrangement in the family. When MOM decided to do that too...well then suddenly she thought she TOO could "do it all" but that assumption ignored the reality that DAD never was "doing it all" to begin with. MOM was taking care of the household responsibilities and 90% of the child raising duties...and DAD was earning the money from his career to make that possible. Dad didnt' have to call out sick when Junior had the sniffles or do laundry on weekends or rush home early to pick up the kids from school and shuttle them to baseball practice b/c mom was doing all that WHILE HE WORKED.

Somehow along the way women were told "women can have it all" but it's impossible for one person to do the full-time job of both people. And yet we told men that nothing would change and this would be great for them too! It isn't. (Not that I'm saying it wouldn't be ideal to be able to balance it all...but the reality is that women having careers AND men having careers means that both have to do MORE than their career--because having a career and taking care of a household/family are each full-time jobs...and everyone is stretched thin!)

So yeah. I agree that we may see our own kids figure out more of a way to make it work so that one of the parents is doing the bulk of the parenting and household responsibilities again (but this time it could be mom OR dad doing it) while the other earns the income. They may trade off a bit more. But I think the kids are seeing a generation of parents frustrated at each other for not "helping" enough at home in favor of our careers. And maybe that's how they will work it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women and men are not the same. Men do not get pregnant, give birth or breastfeed. So if those things are part of a woman's vision for the future then they need to plan differently than a man or woman who doesn't want those things.

You can't have it all. There are finite hours in a day and a week. Many women (at all) are still more likely to want to spend more time with their children in the early years and many men (not all) are still more likely to want to be the provider for their family. What makes people feel valued and productive and fulfilled varies - and that should drive where they prioritize their time.

I have two siblings - my older brother is an engineer and his wife is a SAHM. My younger brother is a SAHD and his wife is a physician. My brother also does some part time consultant work. It works well for both of them. The more career oriented person is building their career and the more maternal / paternal oriented person is at home with the kids. It was important to my younger brother to maintain some paid employment and so he has. My SAHM SIL has gotten very involved in a couple charitable organizations where she volunteers and that gives her meaning outside of her at home role.

When his kids were really young, my older brother was able to flex his day and be home by 3:30, and he worked from home 1 day a week.

My Dr SIL is now considering a chance so she can be home more as she is finding she is missing too much of her kids lives.

If you put your time and effort into what you need to feel productive and fuilfilled and then shift that as time goes, that to me is the best of both worlds.

I think we will see a rise in SAHDs when our kids are older. There is a recognition of a benefit to one parent taking on the kids while the other focuses on career, and I think this next generation will be more open to dads taking on that role than our own was.

This.
People are always saying "men didn't have to choose...they get to be a career man AND a parent"...but that wasn't the case at all. Traditionally, DAD was a career man b/c that was his role in the division of labor arrangement in the family. When MOM decided to do that too...well then suddenly she thought she TOO could "do it all" but that assumption ignored the reality that DAD never was "doing it all" to begin with. MOM was taking care of the household responsibilities and 90% of the child raising duties...and DAD was earning the money from his career to make that possible. Dad didnt' have to call out sick when Junior had the sniffles or do laundry on weekends or rush home early to pick up the kids from school and shuttle them to baseball practice b/c mom was doing all that WHILE HE WORKED.

Somehow along the way women were told "women can have it all" but it's impossible for one person to do the full-time job of both people. And yet we told men that nothing would change and this would be great for them too! It isn't. (Not that I'm saying it wouldn't be ideal to be able to balance it all...but the reality is that women having careers AND men having careers means that both have to do MORE than their career--because having a career and taking care of a household/family are each full-time jobs...and everyone is stretched thin!)

So yeah. I agree that we may see our own kids figure out more of a way to make it work so that one of the parents is doing the bulk of the parenting and household responsibilities again (but this time it could be mom OR dad doing it) while the other earns the income. They may trade off a bit more. But I think the kids are seeing a generation of parents frustrated at each other for not "helping" enough at home in favor of our careers. And maybe that's how they will work it out.

Well, the reality is that two incomes is more than one, and if they are the right amount of more, you don’t just have two people doing the house stuff. Our HHI is probably not high by DC standards but we have a bimonthly cleaner and caregivers for the kids, as well as other help from time to time. Is it still a lot to juggle? Sure. But it’s a lot whether you have two working parents or one SAH. My mom SAH and my dad helped a LOT around the house. I remember them fighting constantly and stressed because, well, three young kids and no local family or support network to speak of (immigrants). So I think for the most part life is life and there’s no getting around the fact that it’s a lot of work, unless you’re hugely privileged which by definition the vast majority of people on this earth are not. I still believe that getting more women economically and politically empowered will eventually lead to improvements in resource distribution and policy for most women and children. Telling privileged women to stay home and sit by the pool isn’t going to help with the bigger picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women and men are not the same. Men do not get pregnant, give birth or breastfeed. So if those things are part of a woman's vision for the future then they need to plan differently than a man or woman who doesn't want those things.

You can't have it all. There are finite hours in a day and a week. Many women (at all) are still more likely to want to spend more time with their children in the early years and many men (not all) are still more likely to want to be the provider for their family. What makes people feel valued and productive and fulfilled varies - and that should drive where they prioritize their time.

I have two siblings - my older brother is an engineer and his wife is a SAHM. My younger brother is a SAHD and his wife is a physician. My brother also does some part time consultant work. It works well for both of them. The more career oriented person is building their career and the more maternal / paternal oriented person is at home with the kids. It was important to my younger brother to maintain some paid employment and so he has. My SAHM SIL has gotten very involved in a couple charitable organizations where she volunteers and that gives her meaning outside of her at home role.

When his kids were really young, my older brother was able to flex his day and be home by 3:30, and he worked from home 1 day a week.

My Dr SIL is now considering a chance so she can be home more as she is finding she is missing too much of her kids lives.

If you put your time and effort into what you need to feel productive and fuilfilled and then shift that as time goes, that to me is the best of both worlds.

I think we will see a rise in SAHDs when our kids are older. There is a recognition of a benefit to one parent taking on the kids while the other focuses on career, and I think this next generation will be more open to dads taking on that role than our own was.

This.
People are always saying "men didn't have to choose...they get to be a career man AND a parent"...but that wasn't the case at all. Traditionally, DAD was a career man b/c that was his role in the division of labor arrangement in the family. When MOM decided to do that too...well then suddenly she thought she TOO could "do it all" but that assumption ignored the reality that DAD never was "doing it all" to begin with. MOM was taking care of the household responsibilities and 90% of the child raising duties...and DAD was earning the money from his career to make that possible. Dad didnt' have to call out sick when Junior had the sniffles or do laundry on weekends or rush home early to pick up the kids from school and shuttle them to baseball practice b/c mom was doing all that WHILE HE WORKED.

Somehow along the way women were told "women can have it all" but it's impossible for one person to do the full-time job of both people. And yet we told men that nothing would change and this would be great for them too! It isn't. (Not that I'm saying it wouldn't be ideal to be able to balance it all...but the reality is that women having careers AND men having careers means that both have to do MORE than their career--because having a career and taking care of a household/family are each full-time jobs...and everyone is stretched thin!)

So yeah. I agree that we may see our own kids figure out more of a way to make it work so that one of the parents is doing the bulk of the parenting and household responsibilities again (but this time it could be mom OR dad doing it) while the other earns the income. They may trade off a bit more. But I think the kids are seeing a generation of parents frustrated at each other for not "helping" enough at home in favor of our careers. And maybe that's how they will work it out.

I agree with everything you said up until the last paragraph. The problem I see with that is a lot of women (and men) want to work. If my husband earned what we two make together, I would still want to work. Ditto for him. We discussed it before marriage because I knew I didn't want to stay home and I was fine with him doing so, and he was not opposed to the idea, but ultimately decided he would rather scale back to a job with regular hours rather than stop working altogether. And so that's what we both did, switching to government jobs from biglaw. And we have two kids under five and we are stretched thin. But it's worth it. I really do feel like I "have it all," but my definition of "having it all" does not include the word easy! Nor does it include the big bucks, at least in terms of potential for my profession. But I work regular hours, I'm involved in my kids' lives, we make enough money to be comfortable though not to take exotic vacations or really travel, but I wouldn't want to do that with young kids anyway. We have family dinner every night. The only thing I don't have time for is "me" time and in a couple more years when the baby is older, I will. (And DH doesn't have it either so there is no resentment.)

I look at my childless friends' lives and they have tons of time and money and they take exotic vacations and are generally fabulous. I'm not saying I have that plus the kids; I don't. But I didn't expect to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lol, no. These sound like mothers from small towns where their self worth is wrapped up in their marriage and procreating.

Luckily, I'm from NY. My girls should do whatever makes them happy. I have three, and only one definitely wants kids. That's fine by me, as long as they're happy.

They are "girls" ... they have no clue what they want, but I'm sure your directing them exactly how you would redo your life if you had a do over. See this in a lot of liberal mothers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol, no. These sound like mothers from small towns where their self worth is wrapped up in their marriage and procreating.

Luckily, I'm from NY. My girls should do whatever makes them happy. I have three, and only one definitely wants kids. That's fine by me, as long as they're happy.

They are "girls" ... they have no clue what they want, but I'm sure your directing them exactly how you would redo your life if you had a do over. See this in a lot of liberal mothers.

This doesn't sound like directing at all. Mire a total hands off approach.