Freedom of religion vs. Hasidic jews

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Jewish, belong to a Reform temple, observant. I feel as though I have more in common with many Muslims than I do with the Hasids.

Only an idiot would think you as a Jew need to take down hassidic Jews. Most people don't think that way. As a Christian I felt like society needs to stop fanatical Christians such as in Waco or polygamist mormons who are marrying underage, not other Christians.

I didn't say I need to take anyone down. I simply stated that even as a Jew I find Hasidic culture distant from my own. I really can't relate and don't feel kinship with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lawyer here.

Generally, the government e does not intervene in how parents raise their children or their intimate marital practices. Not allowing your children to read secular books is not a crime. Neither is banning the internet or not using birth control or women not voting or women not asserting themselves.

What you describe as "taking over towns and immediately disenfranchising immigrants" is happening all over this country, OP. Do you read the news?

I don't like the way Hasids act either, but I think that your outrage is kind of ironic. Let's oppress this oppressive group!

What a bizarre world view. I see the people being brought up in the Hasidic community as being oppressed and stripped of basic human rights. It's no different than other religious cults that attempt to cut their members off from the rest of society and place high barriers to exit based on threats, intimidation and worse. Furthermore, i would see the communities that these Hasidics invade as being oppressed. They suffer from school and local town budgets being gutted and end up completely disenfranchised. Nobody is saying to oppress the oppressive group......I'm saying give the oppressed back their basic rights.

Do you know any hasidim? I do. Both people in the community, and people who have left. The barriers to leaving are social ostracism, etc. For married adults likely a custody battle (they have kids shortly after marriage) For younger people, the lack of a good education and difficulty functioning in secular city. Nonetheless every year many do leave, and find their way in our hard to navigate secular society.

If you really care about those people, you can donate to https://www.footstepsorg.org/ which helps people trying to leave that world.

I have never heard of violence against someone who just wants to leave. There have been occasions of violence on other issues, mostly from particular sects like Skver, not the mainstream hasidic groupls. While banning elected school boards from disposing of school buildings as they see fit may well be good public policy, it is not going to help any oppressed people in the community. It does not sound like you are as interested in helping hasidic women, as in bashing hasidim.

BTW, there are changes in the community. I see parents more accepting of kids who have left the fold than in the past. I see women getting better post HS education than in the past, and getting more professional jobs (though they are allowing that largely to ease economic strains)

These school boards are draining public school budgets and increasing funding of vouchers for private schools which of course supports the orthodox schools they all send their kids to. How on earth is that not harming the minority and immigrant populations in those school districts? Read the Atlantic article that a PP pasted or a great piece in NY Magazine.....there is plenty of documented abuse you can educate yourself about. You're an obvious apologist for these barbaric people and don't you dare question my motives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm Jewish, belong to a Reform temple, observant. I feel as though I have more in common with many Muslims than I do with the Hasids.

They are a cult that happens to be Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're a cult that happens to be Jewish. They grow from within, by having their girls marry young and have large families. They don't educate their children to state standards, so they are isolated and unable to make a living outside the cult. They shun anyone who chooses to leave, preventing contact with friends, family, and children. The leaders tell the community who to vote for, and they do in a large bloc, so they buy off politicians. The leaders control a lot of money, but the community members get by on welfare and Medicaid.

There are similarities to fundamentalist Christian groups, but a big difference is that those groups usually establish themselves in rural areas so there is less interaction with outsiders. Hasidics are currently in densely populated areas around NYC which leads to conflict with the people around them. Their high birth rates mean the population is expanding, doubling in short time periods, so their need for housing is increasing rapidly and the infrastructure can't handle it and their neighbor's don't want the density.

I grew up near New Square and it's a huge issue. It breaks my heart to see what they've done to the East Ramapo school district, which was a great school district when I went nearby 30 years ago. B

Hi from one proud East Ramapo district graduate to another! It is truly heartbreaking to see what has happened in my hometown and to my high school.

Hi neighbor! I actually went to Clarkstown South, but I enjoyed competing against East Ramapo and other Rockland high schools back in my Math and Academic League days . Yes, I was a geek. We were all peers academically in those days, but much has changed. The Hasidic population has grown so much they are encroaching on Clarkstown now. I really don't know what will happen in the future. People have seen what has happenned in East Ramapo, People elsewhere are much more aware and concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm Jewish, belong to a Reform temple, observant. I feel as though I have more in common with many Muslims than I do with the Hasids.

lol- i'm Muslim and agree with you- i grew up in potomac/bethesda and my jewish friends always said islam was reform judaism before there was reform judaism. we travel up to the Catskills a lot and so Ive done a lot of reading on Hasidim and thy are very different from otherJewish communities. Mainstream Judaism is very different from these communities, they are almost like the Amish, in fact, theologically i think lutherans and Amish have a lot in common comparatively. Its borderline antisemitic to suggest that other Jews somehow are responsible for dealing with extremist groups that self identify as the same as them. Also- not all Hasids are so bad, some are quite nice, we've had really nice conversations with some families while on vacation and I am a Hijab wearing Muslim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw it. I'm not opposed to the Hasidic community at all. But I'm appalled they aren't more educated. Why aren't they forced to take exams and continue on in school? I do know that Amish are also not educated but don't know of any other groups.

How are you not opposed to a community that:

- allows husbands to rape their wives
- bans children from reading any secular books
- bans the internet
- takes over towns in upstate new york and immediately disenfranchises immigrants by gutting their schools
- bans women's rights
- demands wives to pop out kids to commit welfare fraud

.....I could go on for pages but these people are barbaric and I can't believe they aren't prosecuted for their crimes

What are the crimes? Pretty tough to prosecute spousal rape.

Also, there are 'Christians' like this.

Bribbery, Welfare fraud (as some were in Tom's River, NJ)..pediphilia (Brooklyn Hasidic jews)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lawyer here.

Generally, the government e does not intervene in how parents raise their children or their intimate marital practices. Not allowing your children to read secular books is not a crime. Neither is banning the internet or not using birth control or women not voting or women not asserting themselves.

What you describe as "taking over towns and immediately disenfranchising immigrants" is happening all over this country, OP. Do you read the news?

I don't like the way Hasids act either, but I think that your outrage is kind of ironic. Let's oppress this oppressive group!

Yes groups should be prosecuted when they use fed funds to buy homes, by taking each other's disabled children into "foster care, welfare fraud, tax evasion, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

But arent their state standards for schooling? I had to pass exams and state tests every 3 years of so. I also had to have math, English, science, history and a foreign language to graduate. I believe the boy on there couldn't do basic math and he was over 20. I went to a private Christian school, so I do understand religious teaching, but how can the state let that be all there is?

Also, I was wondering what jobs the men got? I understand the welfare fraud but the men seem to have jobs and I don't know how they could get any jobs as they're uneducated.

Most of the men work in religious jobs (bus drivers for their schools) or they own businesses (more tax fraud).. they don't ACTUALLY WORK in AMERICAN COMPANIES. In Rockland county, NY they took over the school board, and then sold public properties to themselves at VERY discounted prices. They took NY state funds for computers in the schools (google Hasidic Jews and Rockland county or Tom's River, NJ.) NYS public money was given to the public schools for technology. But when NYS regulators visited the public schools, guess what ? NO computers, AT ALL. The Hasids said they sent them "home" with students. Which is just one reason NYS took over the public school district and why in Orange County, New York, NYS allowed them to build their own town. They also make money by suing towns all over NJ, near the Rockland border, claiming they are being "persecuted" because towns do not want eruvs on public posts or Hasidic Jews in NJ town parks. The NJ town parks have only been for those specific town residents NOT out of towners for DECADES, because local taxes paid for the parks. (The Hasidic Jews bring school buses to use these small parks, and town residents can not even get into them because of overcrowding) My AA friend in Chestnut Ridge was FORCED to move because DH worked from home and Hasidic Jews would knock on the door 30-40 times PER DAY asking them to sell, FOR MONTHS and the Hasidic Jews would walk around their house, LOOKING INTO THE WINDOWS. When they complained to authorities, they were told there was nothing that could be done. (The Hasidic Jews paid off many authorities in town, some of whom were convicted of accepting bribes (google it) Btw when they sold, they were required to use a Hasidic realtor (all other realtors were driven out of town). At closing, after my friend bought another house, her Hasidic buyers (who held up the first closing on my friend's house but assured her they would close a few days later) came to the 2nd closing with $50k less than they agreed in the contract & said that's all they had, take it or leave it. She felt forced to take it because she was the owner of 2 houses. If you ask around, you will here many similar stories (and worse)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lawyer here.

Generally, the government e does not intervene in how parents raise their children or their intimate marital practices. Not allowing your children to read secular books is not a crime. Neither is banning the internet or not using birth control or women not voting or women not asserting themselves.

What you describe as "taking over towns and immediately disenfranchising immigrants" is happening all over this country, OP. Do you read the news?

I don't like the way Hasids act either, but I think that your outrage is kind of ironic. Let's oppress this oppressive group!

What a bizarre world view. I see the people being brought up in the Hasidic community as being oppressed and stripped of basic human rights. It's no different than other religious cults that attempt to cut their members off from the rest of society and place high barriers to exit based on threats, intimidation and worse. Furthermore, i would see the communities that these Hasidics invade as being oppressed. They suffer from school and local town budgets being gutted and end up completely disenfranchised. Nobody is saying to oppress the oppressive group......I'm saying give the oppressed back their basic rights.

Do you know any hasidim? I do. Both people in the community, and people who have left. The barriers to leaving are social ostracism, etc. For married adults likely a custody battle (they have kids shortly after marriage) For younger people, the lack of a good education and difficulty functioning in secular city. Nonetheless every year many do leave, and find their way in our hard to navigate secular society.

If you really care about those people, you can donate to https://www.footstepsorg.org/ which helps people trying to leave that world.

I have never heard of violence against someone who just wants to leave. There have been occasions of violence on other issues, mostly from particular sects like Skver, not the mainstream hasidic groupls. While banning elected school boards from disposing of school buildings as they see fit may well be good public policy, it is not going to help any oppressed people in the community. It does not sound like you are as interested in helping hasidic women, as in bashing hasidim.

BTW, there are changes in the community. I see parents more accepting of kids who have left the fold than in the past. I see women getting better post HS education than in the past, and getting more professional jobs (though they are allowing that largely to ease economic strains)

These school boards are draining public school budgets and increasing funding of vouchers for private schools which of course supports the orthodox schools they all send their kids to. How on earth is that not harming the minority and immigrant populations in those school districts? Read the Atlantic article that a PP pasted or a great piece in NY Magazine.....there is plenty of documented abuse you can educate yourself about. You're an obvious apologist for these barbaric people and don't you dare question my motives.

http://www.rocklandpost.com/2016/11/04/rockland-county-a-county-divided-2/
above is just ONE link detailing just some of the corruption.

Btw at one particular school board meeting one of the Hasidic Jew members, called one of the immigrant woman a very vulgar term when she asked a question at a school board meeting, IN FRONT OF EVERYONE. This was not the first or last time, either.

So don't even think of comparing this group with Amish, Lutherans, Catholics, etc... Other groups may not be great, but leaders do NOT publically act this way!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

But arent their state standards for schooling? I had to pass exams and state tests every 3 years of so. I also had to have math, English, science, history and a foreign language to graduate. I believe the boy on there couldn't do basic math and he was over 20. I went to a private Christian school, so I do understand religious teaching, but how can the state let that be all there is?

Also, I was wondering what jobs the men got? I understand the welfare fraud but the men seem to have jobs and I don't know how they could get any jobs as they're uneducated.

Most of the men work in religious jobs (bus drivers for their schools) or they own businesses (more tax fraud).. they don't ACTUALLY WORK in AMERICAN COMPANIES. In Rockland county, NY they took over the school board, and then sold public properties to themselves at VERY discounted prices. They took NY state funds for computers in the schools (google Hasidic Jews and Rockland county or Tom's River, NJ.) NYS public money was given to the public schools for technology. But when NYS regulators visited the public schools, guess what ? NO computers, AT ALL. The Hasids said they sent them "home" with students. Which is just one reason NYS took over the public school district and why in Orange County, New York, NYS allowed them to build their own town. They also make money by suing towns all over NJ, near the Rockland border, claiming they are being "persecuted" because towns do not want eruvs on public posts or Hasidic Jews in NJ town parks. The NJ town parks have only been for those specific town residents NOT out of towners for DECADES, because local taxes paid for the parks. (The Hasidic Jews bring school buses to use these small parks, and town residents can not even get into them because of overcrowding) My AA friend in Chestnut Ridge was FORCED to move because DH worked from home and Hasidic Jews would knock on the door 30-40 times PER DAY asking them to sell, FOR MONTHS and the Hasidic Jews would walk around their house, LOOKING INTO THE WINDOWS. When they complained to authorities, they were told there was nothing that could be done. (The Hasidic Jews paid off many authorities in town, some of whom were convicted of accepting bribes (google it) Btw when they sold, they were required to use a Hasidic realtor (all other realtors were driven out of town). At closing, after my friend bought another house, her Hasidic buyers (who held up the first closing on my friend's house but assured her they would close a few days later) came to the 2nd closing with $50k less than they agreed in the contract & said that's all they had, take it or leave it. She felt forced to take it because she was the owner of 2 houses. If you ask around, you will here many similar stories (and worse)

You sound a bit unhinged about this topic. I will point out that the vast majority of what you detail are LEGAL issues that need to be dealt with through the LEGAL system. What you write about above, if true, has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

[Anonymous]

PP, I’m pretty sure it has something to do with the way Hasidic Jews interpret their own religion and questionable values to have their leaders behaving this way. No one’s saying “Jews are bad!” so calm down.

[Anonymous]

Some of you are acting as if they are all completely closed off to outsiders, and that's not true.

On a trip to NY, my mother wanted to show me where her grandmother lived in the 1930s - in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. (Jewish, not Hasidic.) We dressed modestly (long skirts, covered arms) to show respect but we didn't don wigs or anything. We walked into the apartment building and up the stairs, to the 3rd floor, and talked in front of the door to the apartment.

The door opened slightly, and a young Hasidic woman asked if she could help us, and we told her that my great-grandma lived here 80 years ago. She opened the door and welcomed us in, showing every room of the place. She was very warm and polite, and we had a nice conversation.

Then, on the way back to the subway, we stopped another Hasidic woman for directions to a drug store (I'll spare you the details), and she was as nice as could be also. Perfect English, as well.

Our final stop was for lunch, in an obviously strictly kosher restaurant with lots of Hasids. Everyone was cordial to us there, as well.

Point is....they are an extreme fringe group, but let's not paint them all as horrible people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

But arent their state standards for schooling? I had to pass exams and state tests every 3 years of so. I also had to have math, English, science, history and a foreign language to graduate. I believe the boy on there couldn't do basic math and he was over 20. I went to a private Christian school, so I do understand religious teaching, but how can the state let that be all there is?

Also, I was wondering what jobs the men got? I understand the welfare fraud but the men seem to have jobs and I don't know how they could get any jobs as they're uneducated.

Most of the men work in religious jobs (bus drivers for their schools) or they own businesses (more tax fraud).. they don't ACTUALLY WORK in AMERICAN COMPANIES. In Rockland county, NY they took over the school board, and then sold public properties to themselves at VERY discounted prices. They took NY state funds for computers in the schools (google Hasidic Jews and Rockland county or Tom's River, NJ.) NYS public money was given to the public schools for technology. But when NYS regulators visited the public schools, guess what ? NO computers, AT ALL. The Hasids said they sent them "home" with students. Which is just one reason NYS took over the public school district and why in Orange County, New York, NYS allowed them to build their own town. They also make money by suing towns all over NJ, near the Rockland border, claiming they are being "persecuted" because towns do not want eruvs on public posts or Hasidic Jews in NJ town parks. The NJ town parks have only been for those specific town residents NOT out of towners for DECADES, because local taxes paid for the parks. (The Hasidic Jews bring school buses to use these small parks, and town residents can not even get into them because of overcrowding) My AA friend in Chestnut Ridge was FORCED to move because DH worked from home and Hasidic Jews would knock on the door 30-40 times PER DAY asking them to sell, FOR MONTHS and the Hasidic Jews would walk around their house, LOOKING INTO THE WINDOWS. When they complained to authorities, they were told there was nothing that could be done. (The Hasidic Jews paid off many authorities in town, some of whom were convicted of accepting bribes (google it) Btw when they sold, they were required to use a Hasidic realtor (all other realtors were driven out of town). At closing, after my friend bought another house, her Hasidic buyers (who held up the first closing on my friend's house but assured her they would close a few days later) came to the 2nd closing with $50k less than they agreed in the contract & said that's all they had, take it or leave it. She felt forced to take it because she was the owner of 2 houses. If you ask around, you will here many similar stories (and worse)

You sound a bit unhinged about this topic. I will point out that the vast majority of what you detail are LEGAL issues that need to be dealt with through the LEGAL system. What you write about above, if true, has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

I'm not pp, but I grew up in Rockland and pp is dead on about the problem. This cult hides behind their religion and cries anti-Semitism anytime they are opposed. It's a very difficult situation for residents in the area. They find ways to skirt laws and abuse the system, and are bankrupting the towns they live in. No one cares who they worship, but their adherence to an 18th century version of their religion has led to real problems in today's world, to the detriment of those around them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of you are acting as if they are all completely closed off to outsiders, and that's not true.

On a trip to NY, my mother wanted to show me where her grandmother lived in the 1930s - in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. (Jewish, not Hasidic.) We dressed modestly (long skirts, covered arms) to show respect but we didn't don wigs or anything. We walked into the apartment building and up the stairs, to the 3rd floor, and talked in front of the door to the apartment.

The door opened slightly, and a young Hasidic woman asked if she could help us, and we told her that my great-grandma lived here 80 years ago. She opened the door and welcomed us in, showing every room of the place. She was very warm and polite, and we had a nice conversation.

Then, on the way back to the subway, we stopped another Hasidic woman for directions to a drug store (I'll spare you the details), and she was as nice as could be also. Perfect English, as well.

Our final stop was for lunch, in an obviously strictly kosher restaurant with lots of Hasids. Everyone was cordial to us there, as well.

Point is....they are an extreme fringe group, but let's not paint them all as horrible people.

I don't think anyone is saying that individual community members are not nice people, I'm sure they are, but they function as a cult and their leadership controls them and their votes to benefit themselves. The fact that you had a pleasant afternoon doesn't take away from their decimation of the East Ramapo school district for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lawyer here.

Generally, the government e does not intervene in how parents raise their children or their intimate marital practices. Not allowing your children to read secular books is not a crime. Neither is banning the internet or not using birth control or women not voting or women not asserting themselves.

What you describe as "taking over towns and immediately disenfranchising immigrants" is happening all over this country, OP. Do you read the news?

I don't like the way Hasids act either, but I think that your outrage is kind of ironic. Let's oppress this oppressive group!

What a bizarre world view. I see the people being brought up in the Hasidic community as being oppressed and stripped of basic human rights. It's no different than other religious cults that attempt to cut their members off from the rest of society and place high barriers to exit based on threats, intimidation and worse. Furthermore, i would see the communities that these Hasidics invade as being oppressed. They suffer from school and local town budgets being gutted and end up completely disenfranchised. Nobody is saying to oppress the oppressive group......I'm saying give the oppressed back their basic rights.

Do you know any hasidim? I do. Both people in the community, and people who have left. The barriers to leaving are social ostracism, etc. For married adults likely a custody battle (they have kids shortly after marriage) For younger people, the lack of a good education and difficulty functioning in secular city. Nonetheless every year many do leave, and find their way in our hard to navigate secular society.

If you really care about those people, you can donate to https://www.footstepsorg.org/ which helps people trying to leave that world.

I have never heard of violence against someone who just wants to leave. There have been occasions of violence on other issues, mostly from particular sects like Skver, not the mainstream hasidic groupls. While banning elected school boards from disposing of school buildings as they see fit may well be good public policy, it is not going to help any oppressed people in the community. It does not sound like you are as interested in helping hasidic women, as in bashing hasidim.

BTW, there are changes in the community. I see parents more accepting of kids who have left the fold than in the past. I see women getting better post HS education than in the past, and getting more professional jobs (though they are allowing that largely to ease economic strains)

It has happenned. In 2011 a community member was burned when he tried to stop his house from being fire-bombed. He was under attack because he chose to worship at a different synagogue.

https://forward.com/opinion/138211/what-is-really-happening-in-new-square/