Freedom of religion vs. Hasidic jews

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

But arent their state standards for schooling? I had to pass exams and state tests every 3 years of so. I also had to have math, English, science, history and a foreign language to graduate. I believe the boy on there couldn't do basic math and he was over 20. I went to a private Christian school, so I do understand religious teaching, but how can the state let that be all there is?

Also, I was wondering what jobs the men got? I understand the welfare fraud but the men seem to have jobs and I don't know how they could get any jobs as they're uneducated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

There are state standards though. They don't meet them. They buy off politicians and local officials, so they've gotten away with it. That to me is the key. If the children were given a state-standard education, it could end the isolation. But again, because they operate essentially as a cult, they don't want that.

And as a pp noted, they don't consider themselves part of America. They don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Non-Hasidic school bus drivers have to work that day because they still have school. It's strange to drive through upstate NY and see billboards all in Hebrew.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

But arent their state standards for schooling? I had to pass exams and state tests every 3 years of so. I also had to have math, English, science, history and a foreign language to graduate. I believe the boy on there couldn't do basic math and he was over 20. I went to a private Christian school, so I do understand religious teaching, but how can the state let that be all there is?

Also, I was wondering what jobs the men got? I understand the welfare fraud but the men seem to have jobs and I don't know how they could get any jobs as they're uneducated.

*aren't there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

There are state standards though. They don't meet them. They buy off politicians and local officials, so they've gotten away with it. That to me is the key. If the children were given a state-standard education, it could end the isolation. But again, because they operate essentially as a cult, they don't want that.

And as a pp noted, they don't consider themselves part of America. They don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Non-Hasidic school bus drivers have to work that day because they still have school. It's strange to drive through upstate NY and see billboards all in Hebrew.

So why doesn't the governor crack down on corrupt politicians? I truly don't care what religion people practice, but I hate to see kids with no future because they never were educated in America.

[Anonymous]

They're not popular in Israel either for the same reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

There are state standards though. They don't meet them. They buy off politicians and local officials, so they've gotten away with it. That to me is the key. If the children were given a state-standard education, it could end the isolation. But again, because they operate essentially as a cult, they don't want that.

And as a pp noted, they don't consider themselves part of America. They don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Non-Hasidic school bus drivers have to work that day because they still have school. It's strange to drive through upstate NY and see billboards all in Hebrew.

So why doesn't the governor crack down on corrupt politicians? I truly don't care what religion people practice, but I hate to see kids with no future because they never were educated in America.

He's one of them!! He gets the bloc vote, just like his dad did. I'm not a rabid Cuomo-hater like many people I know, but both he and his father owed the community for their votes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What annoyed me more than the oppression of women and such was that when they wanted out that NY courts did not assist. They wanted the children of divorce to stay in the same environment. That's insane. It's like telling the kids of two abusive parents that since it's all they've known that they need to keep being abused.

The city and the state seemed to be failing this society. And how do they get around minimum schooling requirements?

This I agree with. We have a struggle in our country between individual rights and the rights of parents and religious freedom. I think it is a big problem that we don't consider it a RIGHT for children to know their first amendment rights, their rights to a free, secular education, and any other rights that their parents are withholding from them.

As for the schooling requirements, they are going to school. It's just purely religious instruction. We have no basic national standards in this country.

There are state standards though. They don't meet them. They buy off politicians and local officials, so they've gotten away with it. That to me is the key. If the children were given a state-standard education, it could end the isolation. But again, because they operate essentially as a cult, they don't want that.

And as a pp noted, they don't consider themselves part of America. They don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Non-Hasidic school bus drivers have to work that day because they still have school. It's strange to drive through upstate NY and see billboards all in Hebrew.

So why doesn't the governor crack down on corrupt politicians? I truly don't care what religion people practice, but I hate to see kids with no future because they never were educated in America.

Sadly, because he wants their votes as well. There has been some movement at the federal level and the FBI is investigating allegations of se abuse and child abuse in Kiryas Joel but the state does nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know some of the people involved in One Of Us (although none of the protagonists).
First, much of what is in the film is absolutely sickening, terrible, heartbreaking, should be illegal etc.

We should be careful not to overgeneralize though; not all Hasidic communities/sub-communities-- and certainly not all Hasids-- are like what is portrayed in the film.

In my personal opinion, fanaticism of all stripes is bad. And, yes, there are a lot of similarities between certain hasidic communities and fundamentalists of other religions.

There has been a big shift in the last 15-20 years where in America Hasidic kids are not receiving 'decent' educations in many of their schools. there are lawsuits about this in NJ right now. (My brother who is a secularaly (and religiously) educated orthodox Jew but not hasidic taught in one for a little while, and he said it was beyond terrible how little respect many of the families and administrations have for secular education). I personally think there is an opportunity for advocacy and enforcement around their schools. In NY and I think NJ, it is particularly complicated due to some political realities and voting patterns. In the DC area, the only area with a larger hasdic populationis Baltimore, and I'm not familiar enough with that community to know how prevalent the disregard for a decent secular education is.

+1 Agreed, and it's hard to tell Hasids apart from fundamentalist muslims. Both forbid women from being educated or intermingling with men. Both forbid children from secular education. Both ignore basic human rights. And yet we're bombing and drone striking the muslims but letting these Hasidic luddites run free? WTF America?????

Hasidic Jews didn't hijack our planes and crash them into buildings, and they're not trying to cut off our heads or run us down with box trucks.

Sure, they just enslave women and strip members of their community of individual rights. Oh, and they suppress free speech as well. You might recall the whistleblower who exposed systematic sexual abuse of children in the ultra-orthodox community and he was immediately shunned and attacked with acid. You can read about it here.....

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbe8bp/the-child-rape-assembly-line-0000141-v20n11

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw it. I'm not opposed to the Hasidic community at all. But I'm appalled they aren't more educated. Why aren't they forced to take exams and continue on in school? I do know that Amish are also not educated but don't know of any other groups.

How are you not opposed to a community that:

- allows husbands to rape their wives
- bans children from reading any secular books
- bans the internet
- takes over towns in upstate new york and immediately disenfranchises immigrants by gutting their schools
- bans women's rights
- demands wives to pop out kids to commit welfare fraud

.....I could go on for pages but these people are barbaric and I can't believe they aren't prosecuted for their crimes

The internet and secular books etc are banned by social pressure, not force. I know people in those communities who manage to use the internet and secular books, risking social ostracism. Not sure how you legally stop social ostracism in a free country.

As for the schools, thats complicated. Immigrants are not disenfranchised (they can vote) But majorities can and do decide to sell under utilized school buildings to private schools. Not saying I agree with that, but its not a basis for banning a religion. NYS can change the laws that allow township autonomy on school building disposition, if they think its worth it.

The wives all have large families - including families of gainfully employed who commit no welfare fraud. NYS should of course investigate welfare fraud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: It's strange to drive through upstate NY and see billboards all in Hebrew.

They are actually in Yiddish, not Hebrew. They use the same alphabet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lawyer here.

Generally, the government e does not intervene in how parents raise their children or their intimate marital practices. Not allowing your children to read secular books is not a crime. Neither is banning the internet or not using birth control or women not voting or women not asserting themselves.

What you describe as "taking over towns and immediately disenfranchising immigrants" is happening all over this country, OP. Do you read the news?

I don't like the way Hasids act either, but I think that your outrage is kind of ironic. Let's oppress this oppressive group!

What a bizarre world view. I see the people being brought up in the Hasidic community as being oppressed and stripped of basic human rights. It's no different than other religious cults that attempt to cut their members off from the rest of society and place high barriers to exit based on threats, intimidation and worse. Furthermore, i would see the communities that these Hasidics invade as being oppressed. They suffer from school and local town budgets being gutted and end up completely disenfranchised. Nobody is saying to oppress the oppressive group......I'm saying give the oppressed back their basic rights.

Do you know any hasidim? I do. Both people in the community, and people who have left. The barriers to leaving are social ostracism, etc. For married adults likely a custody battle (they have kids shortly after marriage) For younger people, the lack of a good education and difficulty functioning in secular city. Nonetheless every year many do leave, and find their way in our hard to navigate secular society.

If you really care about those people, you can donate to https://www.footstepsorg.org/ which helps people trying to leave that world.

I have never heard of violence against someone who just wants to leave. There have been occasions of violence on other issues, mostly from particular sects like Skver, not the mainstream hasidic groupls. While banning elected school boards from disposing of school buildings as they see fit may well be good public policy, it is not going to help any oppressed people in the community. It does not sound like you are as interested in helping hasidic women, as in bashing hasidim.

BTW, there are changes in the community. I see parents more accepting of kids who have left the fold than in the past. I see women getting better post HS education than in the past, and getting more professional jobs (though they are allowing that largely to ease economic strains)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They're a cult that happens to be Jewish. They grow from within, by having their girls marry young and have large families. They don't educate their children to state standards, so they are isolated and unable to make a living outside the cult. They shun anyone who chooses to leave, preventing contact with friends, family, and children. The leaders tell the community who to vote for, and they do in a large bloc, so they buy off politicians. The leaders control a lot of money, but the community members get by on welfare and Medicaid.

There are similarities to fundamentalist Christian groups, but a big difference is that those groups usually establish themselves in rural areas so there is less interaction with outsiders. Hasidics are currently in densely populated areas around NYC which leads to conflict with the people around them. Their high birth rates mean the population is expanding, doubling in short time periods, so their need for housing is increasing rapidly and the infrastructure can't handle it and their neighbor's don't want the density.

I grew up near New Square and it's a huge issue. It breaks my heart to see what they've done to the East Ramapo school district, which was a great school district when I went nearby 30 years ago. B

Hi from one proud East Ramapo district graduate to another! It is truly heartbreaking to see what has happened in my hometown and to my high school.

[Anonymous]

And some more background on this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/11/another-blow-to-one-of-americas-most-controversial-school-board/546227/

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/534/a-not-so-simple-majority

[Anonymous]

I'm Jewish, belong to a Reform temple, observant. I feel as though I have more in common with many Muslims than I do with the Hasids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm Jewish, belong to a Reform temple, observant. I feel as though I have more in common with many Muslims than I do with the Hasids.

Only an idiot would think you as a Jew need to take down hassidic Jews. Most people don't think that way. As a Christian I felt like society needs to stop fanatical Christians such as in Waco or polygamist mormons who are marrying underage, not other Christians.