New situation to talk about with my teen son...

[Anonymous]

As someone that was raped and went through the legal/court process this seems insane. I can see where consent wasn't exactly given but to call it sexual assault? Just tell him to stop and stop seeing him if it weirded you out - perhaps though didn't stop and maybe that's the rest of the story?

I fear for my son that something crazy like this happens to him and I'll definitely keep this topic in mind when we have that talk later (he's 1).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can see how this is gray.

But black and white, when we adults are discussing it, and when you consider how the girl ended up reacting. Get feelings, her willingness to pursue a report, etc.

That is the point of this post.

What seems fairly black and white to ADULTS and AFTER the fact is still the tiniest bit gray to a young adult in the middle of the situation.

I hope he gets some (some) leniency. But yes, let this be another consent lesson to teach to the younger generation. Sleeping = even if it's the morning after, is not OK.

Get a positive confirmation before every time, and during.

If a girl reaches over and touches her sleeping boyfriend/date in the morning and he runs out and files a police report do you think that the girl should be put on the sex offender registry? Should she be expelled? What should happen to her?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see how this is gray.

But black and white, when we adults are discussing it, and when you consider how the girl ended up reacting. Get feelings, her willingness to pursue a report, etc.

That is the point of this post.

What seems fairly black and white to ADULTS and AFTER the fact is still the tiniest bit gray to a young adult in the middle of the situation.

I hope he gets some (some) leniency. But yes, let this be another consent lesson to teach to the younger generation. Sleeping = even if it's the morning after, is not OK.

Get a positive confirmation before every time, and during.

If a girl reaches over and touches her sleeping boyfriend/date in the morning and he runs out and files a police report do you think that the girl should be put on the sex offender registry? Should she be expelled? What should happen to her?

Exactly. I wonder if she told her friends what happened and they sent her off the deep end.

[Anonymous]

I'm wondering if the boys parents cleaned up the story, to save your impression of their son. When asked why their son was expelled for raping a girl, this version sounds more empathetic than "he date raised her".

Again...beware if only hearing one side of the story.

[Anonymous]

I'm the OP and as others have pointed out, I only have the story my friend told me.

As someone who was raped and had to deal with the aftermath, her reaction really stuck me as that of someone who has previously been assaulted. I know I experienced panic attacks after my rape when I tried to have sex with my partner whom I'd been with for years. I think my reaction would have been similar. Even now DH knows I do not want to be woken up this way but he's fine to be woken up this way.

I didn't mention any of this to my friend because she does not know my history and also because my mind was just spinning during her story. Some co-workers and I were discussing it at lunch and one woman with 3 teen son's said she's taught them to just automatically ask each time they want to do anything with the opposite sex, even kissing, and never assume because you kissed her yesterday that she's fine doing it today.

It was really fascinating to me to hear how the university handles cases like this. From my understanding, the girl was very upset and told her roommate, who encouraged her to speak with their RA, who then encouraged her to report it to the university. The univ. then investigated to see if the accusation could be substantiated and notified the local PD who also began investigating. He was allowed to remain in classes during this time but told to stay away from her (and then ordered to stay away later on).

I don't know if any alcohol was involved. I do know that from the time they met until when this happened was around 2 months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid. I almost wish that girl would experience a real no consent situation. Sorry for your friend's son.

You almost wish that a girl you don't know would be forcibly raped? You're sorry for a boy who had sexual contact with an unconscious girl? Wow.

FYI, being asleep is not the same as being unconscious.

Because she was able to wake up and tell him to stop touching her without her permission? You are a piece of work.

New person. No, because initiating sexual activity with a sleeping partner is playful. Initiating sexual activity with an unconscious partner is sickening.

Maybe you think it's playful. We're not talking about a kiss on the neck. He was giving her oral. That's skipping how many bases??

Maybe so, but I don't see that as a crime.

Anyone can report anything they want to the police.

Well, clearly the law disagrees with you. She didn't consent to the contact. She reported it as sexual assault.

The only thing that is surprising to me about this story is that the survivor "won" and the boy was expelled. That's not the way it usually goes.

[Anonymous]

I feel like there is more to this story. OP is only hearing the boy's parents' version of events.

In any case, it is probably good idea to remind your son that people who are asleep or unconscious cannot consent to sex, and that you should wait until you know someone better before doing things like initiating sex before they are awake. For all anyone knows, the girl had been molested or raped before. And waking up to find someone engaged in sexual activity on you would freak out a lot of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's actually good to hear the local police got involved. At least then he can be ensured of a fair trial and due process. Way too often, universities handle this in-house, without following due process (which both sides deserve).

The schools seems too quick to expel him, since the courts have not tried his case yet, but I guess they have a lower standard of proof.

My friend hired a lawyer that lives in the town where the university is located and he told her that when the disciplinary board met, he would absolutely be expelled since the local PD investigation led to an arrest. He said this university is one that always sides with the side of the victim and that as soon as an arrest is made, the other parties fate is sealed at the university.

I almost got the impression that what she was most upset about was him being expelled vs. the actual charge because she feels like "the boys have no one standing up for them even though no jury has convicted him."

I think she wanted more outrage from us. I just got that feeling after she told the story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel like there is more to this story. OP is only hearing the boy's parents' version of events.

In any case, it is probably good idea to remind your son that people who are asleep or unconscious cannot consent to sex, and that you should wait until you know someone better before doing things like initiating sex before they are awake. For all anyone knows, the girl had been molested or raped before. And waking up to find someone engaged in sexual activity on you would freak out a lot of people.

I went to the county where this happened, found their court records and was able to locate his arrest record/mug shot. The charge listed is CRIMINAL SEXUAL CONDUCT - THIRD DEGREE and when I looked up what that equated in that state it says:

A person is guilty of criminal sexual conduct in the third degree if the actor engages in sexual battery with the victim and the actor knows or has reason to know that the victim is mentally defective, mentally incapacitated, or physically helpless.

It's possible that there's more to the story that my friend omitted. Or like someone said, alcohol was involved.

Is being asleep considered physically helpless? Those points in the description of what constitutes 3rd degree points more towards someone being drunk in my mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the OP and as others have pointed out, I only have the story my friend told me.

As someone who was raped and had to deal with the aftermath, her reaction really stuck me as that of someone who has previously been assaulted. I know I experienced panic attacks after my rape when I tried to have sex with my partner whom I'd been with for years. I think my reaction would have been similar. Even now DH knows I do not want to be woken up this way but he's fine to be woken up this way.

I didn't mention any of this to my friend because she does not know my history and also because my mind was just spinning during her story. Some co-workers and I were discussing it at lunch and one woman with 3 teen son's said she's taught them to just automatically ask each time they want to do anything with the opposite sex, even kissing, and never assume because you kissed her yesterday that she's fine doing it today.

It was really fascinating to me to hear how the university handles cases like this. From my understanding, the girl was very upset and told her roommate, who encouraged her to speak with their RA, who then encouraged her to report it to the university. The univ. then investigated to see if the accusation could be substantiated and notified the local PD who also began investigating. He was allowed to remain in classes during this time but told to stay away from her (and then ordered to stay away later on).

I don't know if any alcohol was involved. I do know that from the time they met until when this happened was around 2 months.

If this happened as described that is awful.

Pretty soon we will be back to escorting young couples on walks through the garden....because this has gotten w-a-y out of hand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is scary to be a boy today in college. My friend of mine is a nurse at a college health center. If a girl comes into her office and accuses a student of rape, authorities are called. If the young lady had any alcohol (even 1 beer), she is considered incompetent to make a decision about sex. Police called, the boy would get a record and be expelled. I do not condone rape AT ALL, but there are some girls who have misgivings the next morning and they can accuse. Previously, colleges have handled these cases themselves, but now the police are involved immediately. I don't know what the answer is, but what do you tell your boys? What is the girl's responsibility?

I agree. My dh picked up my high school aged son from a female friend's house over break. He had gone there in the afternoon to hang out and there were about 10 kt)tids. The dad was there when my dh brought him, but when he picked him up two hours later, he wasn't. My ds said by then, when there were only two girls and two guys still there, the girl whose house it was invited them into her bedroom to show them something (can't remember what). My dh flipped out when he heard this. It would be so easy for the dad to come home and be pissed to find them in her bedroom. The girl might say it was the guys' idea. Or the girls could say something happened that didn't. I've heard it too many times that for any number of reasons, a girl says something happened that didn't to get out of trouble, or to get attention, or whatever. There are challenges, of course, parenting both boys and girls, but this is a big one for parents of boys.

Something similar happened over break with one of my son's friend. The friend was at a New Years party. The clock struck midnight, the friend was there without his girlfriend, but one of his girl friend was there. She kissed him, being in shock, he froze and didn't react to her advances, she was embarrassed and fearful this would get back to her. She brought out the crocodile tears and ran out to her friends who were at a different part of the house and accused him of accosting her. They all headed straight for threatening him. But he was able to plead his case because they're were in a public place and his known to be good kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like there is more to this story. OP is only hearing the boy's parents' version of events.

In any case, it is probably good idea to remind your son that people who are asleep or unconscious cannot consent to sex, and that you should wait until you know someone better before doing things like initiating sex before they are awake. For all anyone knows, the girl had been molested or raped before. And waking up to find someone engaged in sexual activity on you would freak out a lot of people.

I went to the county where this happened, found their court records and was able to locate his arrest record/mug shot. The charge listed is CRIMINAL SEXUAL CONDUCT - THIRD DEGREE and when I looked up what that equated in that state it says:

A person is guilty of criminal sexual conduct in the third degree if the actor engages in sexual battery with the victim and the actor knows or has reason to know that the victim is mentally defective, mentally incapacitated, or physically helpless.

It's possible that there's more to the story that my friend omitted. Or like someone said, alcohol was involved.

Is being asleep considered physically helpless? Those points in the description of what constitutes 3rd degree points more towards someone being drunk in my mind.

They are mentally incapacitated. You cannot consent if you are unconscious. And being asleep is being unconscious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like there is more to this story. OP is only hearing the boy's parents' version of events.

In any case, it is probably good idea to remind your son that people who are asleep or unconscious cannot consent to sex, and that you should wait until you know someone better before doing things like initiating sex before they are awake. For all anyone knows, the girl had been molested or raped before. And waking up to find someone engaged in sexual activity on you would freak out a lot of people.

I went to the county where this happened, found their court records and was able to locate his arrest record/mug shot. The charge listed is CRIMINAL SEXUAL CONDUCT - THIRD DEGREE and when I looked up what that equated in that state it says:

A person is guilty of criminal sexual conduct in the third degree if the actor engages in sexual battery with the victim and the actor knows or has reason to know that the victim is mentally defective, mentally incapacitated, or physically helpless.

It's possible that there's more to the story that my friend omitted. Or like someone said, alcohol was involved.

Is being asleep considered physically helpless? Those points in the description of what constitutes 3rd degree points more towards someone being drunk in my mind.

They are mentally incapacitated. You cannot consent if you are unconscious. And being asleep is being unconscious.

There are at least 2 PPs on this thread who disagreed with me when I mentioned that earlier. (Not the OP, btw.)

[Anonymous]

He may have been arrested, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he'll be charged with a crime, that's up to the DA's office. Being arrested & being charged are two VERY different things (which makes the universities decision to expel even more shocking, bit I'll get to that later).

It will all depend on credibility & circumstances, since there's likely not to be any evidence (they were together the night before, so DNA would most likely be ruled out), so they're going to have to rely heavily on the credibility of the victims testimony (because the defense attorney WILL try to rip her credibility & her testimony to shreds and the DA knows this ahead of time). Especially if it was truly a misunderstanding or a lack of judgement on his part, if there are any holes in her story, they won't embarrass themselves by pressing charges.

Certainly from the story told it doesn't sound like there was any malice on his part, or intent to do harm.

The DA may not feel like they have a strong enough case to press charges or the victim may refuse to testify (because THEN it becomes a matter of public record, the local & most likely national newspapers latch on to the story seeing that this is (as you said) a new "situation" that hasn't been discussed before).

She's going to have to really think about whether she wants to testify, because even if Jane Doe is used, people already know who she is & college students talk & will talk to the press & anyone else that will listen. Let's just assume the story that the OP told is entirely true & nothing is being left out, I don't see any jury convicting this boy & potentially ruining his life on these basis (and if she perjurs herself, enhances the story, or lies in any way to make herself appear more credible, they could make an example out of her & she could be forced to have to pay for his attorneys fees). Then this story doesn't only follow him for life, it follows her too.

If the DA does in fact drop all charges, you should tell your friend to move to have the arrest expunged from his record (and if he's a minor, have that record sealed), because if it remains in his record regardless that he wasn't charged, it can be used against him for the rest of gooyd life (from background checks for employment, to his name being encompassed in a search for possible sexual predators in a crime).

I'm also very surprised that the university already expelled him without the boy even being charged with a crime yet!
That boy is entitled to due process & it is absurd that they would make themselves the forensics investigators, prosecutors, judge & jury without determining ALL of the facts first.

If that's the case & they did jump the gun, there very well could be a legal case against the university as well (if he's not charged with a crime).

Before anyone jumps down my throat for being insensitive to the victim, I'm basing my opinions as someone who has worked in the court & legal system for over 10 years & on this story being in fact TRUE & nothing is being left out, because that's all we have to go on.

If this story is true, nothing being left out & it truly was a misunderstanding or lack of good judgement on his part, the DA won't press charges & the boy will have gotten the scare & the life lesson of a lifetime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He may have been arrested, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he'll be charged with a crime, that's up to the DA's office. Being arrested & being charged are two VERY different things (which makes the universities decision to expel even more shocking, bit I'll get to that later).

It will all depend on credibility & circumstances, since there's likely not to be any evidence (they were together the night before, so DNA would most likely be ruled out), so they're going to have to rely heavily on the credibility of the victims testimony (because the defense attorney WILL try to rip her credibility & her testimony to shreds and the DA knows this ahead of time). Especially if it was truly a misunderstanding or a lack of judgement on his part, if there are any holes in her story, they won't embarrass themselves by pressing charges.

Certainly from the story told it doesn't sound like there was any malice on his part, or intent to do harm.

The DA may not feel like they have a strong enough case to press charges or the victim may refuse to testify (because THEN it becomes a matter of public record, the local & most likely national newspapers latch on to the story seeing that this is (as you said) a new "situation" that hasn't been discussed before).

She's going to have to really think about whether she wants to testify, because even if Jane Doe is used, people already know who she is & college students talk & will talk to the press & anyone else that will listen. Let's just assume the story that the OP told is entirely true & nothing is being left out, I don't see any jury convicting this boy & potentially ruining his life on these basis (and if she perjurs herself, enhances the story, or lies in any way to make herself appear more credible, they could make an example out of her & she could be forced to have to pay for his attorneys fees). Then this story doesn't only follow him for life, it follows her too.

If the DA does in fact drop all charges, you should tell your friend to move to have the arrest expunged from his record (and if he's a minor, have that record sealed), because if it remains in his record regardless that he wasn't charged, it can be used against him for the rest of gooyd life (from background checks for employment, to his name being encompassed in a search for possible sexual predators in a crime).

I'm also very surprised that the university already expelled him without the boy even being charged with a crime yet!
That boy is entitled to due process & it is absurd that they would make themselves the forensics investigators, prosecutors, judge & jury without determining ALL of the facts first.

If that's the case & they did jump the gun, there very well could be a legal case against the university as well (if he's not charged with a crime).

Before anyone jumps down my throat for being insensitive to the victim, I'm basing my opinions as someone who has worked in the court & legal system for over 10 years & on this story being in fact TRUE & nothing is being left out, because that's all we have to go on.

If this story is true, nothing being left out & it truly was a misunderstanding or lack of good judgement on his part, the DA won't press charges & the boy will have gotten the scare & the life lesson of a lifetime.

+1
I agree with everything you just said. I don'tt see any jury convicting him from this story and the prosecutor wouldn't attempt to try him if they know that they will definitely lose.