Stop it with 'gaslighting' and 'borderline'

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody knows what they mean.

Thanks to MIL, I know Borderline very well now. Never heard the term before 5 years ago.

Borderline people create a lot of chaos in the lives of people around them. That's why they're so frequently discussed in places like this. If MIL were chill, I'd have nothing to write about.

I believe your MIL creates chaos, sure. But the term for that isn't as "deep" and "complex" as BPD--she's just a pain in the ass. Really. Don't play armchair psychologist when she's just a PITA!

you obviously have not encountered a borderline person!

NP. I don't give a flying fuck who you encountered. Unless you are a liscenced professional, keep your mouth shut, because every time you hand out a diagnosis, you sound stupid.

I am a licensed professional. PP is more right than you are.

As a licensed professional you would know that a well-reasoned diagnosis by an expert is critical. A true borderline needs years of specialized treatment. On-going. In all likelihood treatment for life. Success will require the active participation of spouses, SOs and other loved ones, who themselves need to have some form of therapeutic support.

An asshole, on the other hand, needs to get smacked in the head with a 2x4.

See the difference?

Pp with the borderline mil here. Borderlines are extremely resistant to seeing someone for diagnosis, let alone treatment. Family members who've been subjected to maltreatment by a borderline person for years are capable of recognizing the disorder. I don't need MIL to see a professional to know she has this personality disorder. I don't care if you think the term is overused - the disorder is recognizable. I'm not sure why you take that so personally.

Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

I'm curious what it is that you recognize. Can you give specific examples with explanation why they are indicative of the BPD?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Pp with the borderline mil here. Borderlines are extremely resistant to seeing someone for diagnosis, let alone treatment. Family members who've been subjected to maltreatment by a borderline person for years are capable of recognizing the disorder. I don't need MIL to see a professional to know she has this personality disorder. I don't care if you think the term is overused - the disorder is recognizable. I'm not sure why you take that so personally.

Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

Totally agree with you. I don't have to be a licensed professional to recognize when a family member is suffering from depression. Similarly, I don't have to get a medical degree to recognize that mil exhibits a pattern of behaviour that matches someone with borderilne personality disorder. I'm not qualified to treat either case, but I can see what is happening. BPD is an extreme situation, happens for years and years and years, in multiple relationships over a person's lifetime.

Again, I don't care if a fellow DCUM-er doesn't believe me. It's been very helpful to realize that this is what is happening, and understanding MIL in light of the disorder makes her behaviour make much more sense. I actually feel some sympathy for the pain she must be dealing with. Her mother was apparently a very difficult woman, who probably suffered a great deal herself in her childhood. MIL kept things together pretty well when her kids were young, which is probably why DH and his brother are the great guys they are, but things went off the rails again as they hit later elementary age, and have only gone downhill since. I'm just glad that the pattern stops with this generation, and this pain won't be suffered on our children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

I'm curious what it is that you recognize. Can you give specific examples with explanation why they are indicative of the BPD?

People who come here to express their concerns about this kind of family member or to seek coping advice aren't obligated to prove the diagnosis to you. Just offer the help people need, be a friendly ear, or sit it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

I'm curious what it is that you recognize. Can you give specific examples with explanation why they are indicative of the BPD?

People who come here to express their concerns about this kind of family member or to seek coping advice aren't obligated to prove the diagnosis to you. Just offer the help people need, be a friendly ear, or sit it out.

PP was not asking for help, and I didn't ask her to prove anything. Why is this question so offensive? Do you suspect your diagnosis is a judgement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

I'm curious what it is that you recognize. Can you give specific examples with explanation why they are indicative of the BPD?

People who come here to express their concerns about this kind of family member or to seek coping advice aren't obligated to prove the diagnosis to you. Just offer the help people need, be a friendly ear, or sit it out.

Exactly. And as said previously, the fact that you feel the need to control, disprove, and stir the shit....really says a lot about you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by extreme fear of abandonment; unstable relationships with other people, sense of self, or emotions; feelings of emptiness; frequent dangerous behavior; and self-harm.[3] Symptoms may be triggered by seemingly normal events.[3] This pattern of behavior typically begins by early adulthood, and occurs across a variety of situations.[4] People with BPD often engage in idealization and devaluation of others, alternating between high positive regard and great disappointment.[5] Substance abuse, depression, and eating disorders commonly co-exist with borderline personality disorder.[3] About 6% die by suicide.[3]
usually cuased by severe trauma in childhood, although not everyone with trauma has BP

This is why we have those smug people called doctors How in the world can you diagnose a person based on the description above?

Because it is so extreme. typically borderline people are always meeting new people, getting very close, then very angry, then a lot of drama, and all the while substance abuse. It is not that common, but a professional knows it when they see it. It is NOT your PITA MIL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by extreme fear of abandonment; unstable relationships with other people, sense of self, or emotions; feelings of emptiness; frequent dangerous behavior; and self-harm.[3] Symptoms may be triggered by seemingly normal events.[3] This pattern of behavior typically begins by early adulthood, and occurs across a variety of situations.[4] People with BPD often engage in idealization and devaluation of others, alternating between high positive regard and great disappointment.[5] Substance abuse, depression, and eating disorders commonly co-exist with borderline personality disorder.[3] About 6% die by suicide.[3]
usually cuased by severe trauma in childhood, although not everyone with trauma has BP

This is why we have those smug people called doctors How in the world can you diagnose a person based on the description above?

Because it is so extreme. typically borderline people are always meeting new people, getting very close, then very angry, then a lot of drama, and all the while substance abuse. It is not that common, but a professional knows it when they see it. It is NOT your PITA MIL.

New poster. And you know this because you know her MIL????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

I'm curious what it is that you recognize. Can you give specific examples with explanation why they are indicative of the BPD?

PP with the borderline mil here. Assuming your question is sincere, check out the book Stop Walking on Eggshells. It's essentially the classic on dealing with BPD in the family - http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901

For my mil, one of the big recognizable things is the idea of "splitting". In her world, people are either all good or all bad. My dh was the "good" one, his brother the "bad" one. I was the "good" dil, my sil was the "bad" one. Until I wasn't, of course. Her reactions to everything are extreme. She's never just miffed about something, she's furious about it. No one makes an innocent mistake in her world - they are out to get her and take her down and are horrible, damaged people who will never change. And they need help of course, but she is just fine and needs no help, thankyouverymuch.

Her house is a disordered mess. I'm pretty sure her finances are a wreck too. She divorced FIL late in life, retaining properties that they owned in exchange for any claim to any money they had (which wasn't much - FIL was a high earner who spent everything, he's his own story). She proceeded to give the properties away to her kids, against legal and tax advice (this was before dh and I married). Now she's left her last job and seems to need money. Thankfully we have some and have give been able to give her some. But these boundaries are fuzzy - she gives her property to her kids, but they have no idea what sort of retirement savings she has or what her accounts are. She seems convinced she'll just die before the money runs out. It's so different from my upbringing. All I can do at this point is shake my head.

[Anonymous]

I will say that I get a little surprised when I see BPD bandied about on this board because the examples used, like the narcissistic MILs, seem so far removed from my BPD-diagnosed sibling.

Perhaps her case is extreme, but my BPD sister is so far from being able to have a relationship long enough to marry and raise children, or hold down any kind of job, or even live on her own, that the annoying MILs I read about seem to exist on another planet. Again, my understanding of the disease is limited to my own experience and there must be a spectrum of the disorder, but overuse of the term can belittle those who truly have a crippling problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I will say that I get a little surprised when I see BPD bandied about on this board because the examples used, like the narcissistic MILs, seem so far removed from my BPD-diagnosed sibling.

Perhaps her case is extreme, but my BPD sister is so far from being able to have a relationship long enough to marry and raise children, or hold down any kind of job, or even live on her own, that the annoying MILs I read about seem to exist on another planet. Again, my understanding of the disease is limited to my own experience and there must be a spectrum of the disorder, but overuse of the term can belittle those who truly have a crippling problem.

THANK you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

I'm curious what it is that you recognize. Can you give specific examples with explanation why they are indicative of the BPD?

PP with the borderline mil here. Assuming your question is sincere, check out the book Stop Walking on Eggshells. It's essentially the classic on dealing with BPD in the family - http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901

For my mil, one of the big recognizable things is the idea of "splitting". In her world, people are either all good or all bad. My dh was the "good" one, his brother the "bad" one. I was the "good" dil, my sil was the "bad" one. Until I wasn't, of course. Her reactions to everything are extreme. She's never just miffed about something, she's furious about it. No one makes an innocent mistake in her world - they are out to get her and take her down and are horrible, damaged people who will never change. And they need help of course, but she is just fine and needs no help, thankyouverymuch.

Her house is a disordered mess. I'm pretty sure her finances are a wreck too. She divorced FIL late in life, retaining properties that they owned in exchange for any claim to any money they had (which wasn't much - FIL was a high earner who spent everything, he's his own story). She proceeded to give the properties away to her kids, against legal and tax advice (this was before dh and I married). Now she's left her last job and seems to need money. Thankfully we have some and have give been able to give her some. But these boundaries are fuzzy - she gives her property to her kids, but they have no idea what sort of retirement savings she has or what her accounts are. She seems convinced she'll just die before the money runs out. It's so different from my upbringing. All I can do at this point is shake my head.

Thank you, and yes, my interest in sincere. It may be that when all symptoms collide and don't let up, we talk about a disorder. But when people come to complain about isolated incidents and personal disagreements and slap the borderline sticker on it, it's crazy. This is what OP was referring to. Anyway, thanks for the examples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly. Every so often I encounter a story about a crazy relative and I immediately recognize it. It's very recognizable. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are capable of making a DSM diagnosis or offering therapy. It's just a very recognizable thing once you've been in the maw. People who are really pissed about it are probably projecting ...

I'm curious what it is that you recognize. Can you give specific examples with explanation why they are indicative of the BPD?

PP with the borderline mil here. Assuming your question is sincere, check out the book Stop Walking on Eggshells. It's essentially the classic on dealing with BPD in the family - http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901

For my mil, one of the big recognizable things is the idea of "splitting". In her world, people are either all good or all bad. My dh was the "good" one, his brother the "bad" one. I was the "good" dil, my sil was the "bad" one. Until I wasn't, of course. Her reactions to everything are extreme. She's never just miffed about something, she's furious about it. No one makes an innocent mistake in her world - they are out to get her and take her down and are horrible, damaged people who will never change. And they need help of course, but she is just fine and needs no help, thankyouverymuch.

Her house is a disordered mess. I'm pretty sure her finances are a wreck too. She divorced FIL late in life, retaining properties that they owned in exchange for any claim to any money they had (which wasn't much - FIL was a high earner who spent everything, he's his own story). She proceeded to give the properties away to her kids, against legal and tax advice (this was before dh and I married). Now she's left her last job and seems to need money. Thankfully we have some and have give been able to give her some. But these boundaries are fuzzy - she gives her property to her kids, but they have no idea what sort of retirement savings she has or what her accounts are. She seems convinced she'll just die before the money runs out. It's so different from my upbringing. All I can do at this point is shake my head.

She does not really meet the criteria. Borderline people have a VERY hard time maintaining relationships. So your MIL built up a fortune while married to your FIL for many years. Then she had children who are adults who all stay in touch and maintain her properties. Then she has a caring DD who is helping her now. She stayed in a job until the kids were grown and past grown... She sounds much more keyed in and responsible than a typical borderline. Really, she sounds more like a raging alcoholic to me ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by extreme fear of abandonment; unstable relationships with other people, sense of self, or emotions; feelings of emptiness; frequent dangerous behavior; and self-harm.[3] Symptoms may be triggered by seemingly normal events.[3] This pattern of behavior typically begins by early adulthood, and occurs across a variety of situations.[4] People with BPD often engage in idealization and devaluation of others, alternating between high positive regard and great disappointment.[5] Substance abuse, depression, and eating disorders commonly co-exist with borderline personality disorder.[3] About 6% die by suicide.[3]
usually cuased by severe trauma in childhood, although not everyone with trauma has BP

This is why we have those smug people called doctors How in the world can you diagnose a person based on the description above?

Because it is so extreme. typically borderline people are always meeting new people, getting very close, then very angry, then a lot of drama, and all the while substance abuse. It is not that common, but a professional knows it when they see it. It is NOT your PITA MIL.

From reading about the disorder, I don't think this is typical at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody knows what they mean.

Thanks to MIL, I know Borderline very well now. Never heard the term before 5 years ago.
Borderline people create a lot of chaos in the lives of people around them. That's why they're so frequently discussed in places like this. If MIL were chill, I'd have nothing to write about.

I believe your MIL creates chaos, sure. But the term for that isn't as "deep" and "complex" as BPD--she's just a pain in the ass. Really. Don't play armchair psychologist when she's just a PITA!

you obviously have not encountered a borderline person!

NP. I don't give a flying fuck who you encountered. Unless you are a liscenced professional, keep your mouth shut, because every time you hand out a diagnosis, you sound stupid.

I am a licensed professional. PP is more right than you are.

As a licensed professional you would know that a well-reasoned diagnosis by an expert is critical. A true borderline needs years of specialized treatment. On-going. In all likelihood treatment for life. Success will require the active participation of spouses, SOs and other loved ones, who themselves need to have some form of therapeutic support.

An asshole, on the other hand, needs to get smacked in the head with a 2x4.

See the difference?

NP here. Respectfully, I believe that a knowledgeable, intelligent and experienced person can determine whether an individual they have known for years is out of the range of normal, and what general category of mental illness they are suffering from.

My husband is a doctor and I'm a scientist. There have been times when I have correctly diagnosed illness in my children and not him.
One of my children has complex special needs. As he grew, many specialists have told me different things about his diagnoses, and some of them were wrong when I knew all along what he had. Why? Because I live with him and have the advantage of years of observations. If you add painstaking research about his behaviors and my reading of the primary literature, then despite the fact that I cannot make him undergo a neuropsychological eval myself, I KNOW.

Nothing can replace a licensed psychologist for evaluating these kinds of disorders.
But nothing can replace the observations and witness of close family members.
We need to work together, and it is insulting that you would think we are ignorant and wrong.