21 Egyptian Christians Beheaded in Libya

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote: I agree that IS and Algerians living in Paris don't read DCUM. I said as much in an earlier post. I don't write for their benefit. Rather, I try to discuss things with the mostly US residents that read this forum. I am not going to rehash all of our earlier discussions -- feel free to go read the earlier threads if you have forgotten. If you believe that criticizing an entire religion is beneficial for achieving your goals -- whatever they are -- then by all means do it. I have never prevented you from doing it. IS has made clear that they welcome your doing exactly that. For myself, I advocate a smarter strategy. Instead of dividing Muslims from the West, we should divide Muslims from IS. I don't believe that you do that by insulting them.

Thanks for that. Another non-answer to my questions about whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think, whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe, or whether conciliation has worked historically. Thanks also for the sinister references to "whatever my goals are", suggestions that I've forgotten earlier discussions, and assertions that your way is "smarter". (Note: do NOT call me butthurt again. I always point out your insults because I think it's better than getting down in the mud with you.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Why can't you just say that?

How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes? I posted earlier that we need social and economic policies, so you don't own that, but it hasn't exactly worked in Europe either. Maybe they just need to try harder.... I still think, however, that as long as verses about how God wants you to kill unbelievers are allowed to stand without broad-based moral challenges, from within and outside Islam, then some future group like ISIS, the Taliban, or al Qaeda, maybe 50 years from now, will think they should act on these verses.

Signed, another fed up liberal

^fed-up. Because... oh never mind, just let me correct myself

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of this hate theology was preached in mosques in the west - a lot of Isis was recruited from the west - is there some educating to be done in these communities by their own community members?

There actually wasn't a lot -- but a few well-publicized cases. While reading about the Charlie Hebdo attackers, I learned that they had actually avoided mosques and organized religious activities because there was so much opposition to their beliefs in those communities. They were radicalized in people's living rooms.

It is interesting that the Charile Hebdo and Copenhagen attacks were committed by individuals who were born and raised in those countries. It would be very worthwhile to understand what is alienating such individuals from their society. Read this article about a guy who moved to Canada when he was 10:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/14/imprisoned-terror-charges-fahim-ahmad-gives-insight-radicalization/

When he became radicalized, he couldn't even read the Quran. He was motivated by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Note this in context of our current discussion:

There would be things like people calling you “terrorist,” or mistreating you for how you were dressed or being racially profiled by the police. Those happened to me and people around me. You start to feel like you don’t fit in, and the only way you can fit in is by maybe going away somewhere else, like maybe the country your parents came from, or maybe an “Islamic State” somewhere.

Good. Maybe there would be a lot more of them if there weren't organized opposition. You might not be able to stop everyone, but you can send a message that you are damned/going straight to hell, that you will have an unmarked grave etc. etc. if you engage in such activities. As to the ones returning from the front--the trade off to their being allowed to return to a place like France should be constant publicity about the evils and banal unsexiness of joining ISIS--speaking tours like ex gang members do. This has to be proactive, not reactive. And teenagers by definition are alienated. I don't buy for one minute that people's stares led to radicalization. All teens feel like they are being stared at. It is up to their communities to keep them engaged and wholesome - which can be very hard to do. So try harder I guess! But what they should hear around the dinner table, in the mosque, at school CONSTANTLY is that this type of violent nihilism is wrong, weak, uncool - rappers should be rapping/making fun of it -- whatever gets through to teens. They should put captured Isis guys in pink jumpsuits and have them clean toilets. Give them to sheriff Joe. Whatever will get through that there is nothing 'cool' about choosing this path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

And Egypt, an Islamic State, set bombers to bomb ISIS strong holds in response, yesterday/today. Muslim fighting Muslim, not religion.

Iran, an Islamic State, also has fighters, on the ground, fighting ISIS. Who do you think is keeping them out of Baghdad?
Nice job trying to make a civil war about religion

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote: I agree that IS and Algerians living in Paris don't read DCUM. I said as much in an earlier post. I don't write for their benefit. Rather, I try to discuss things with the mostly US residents that read this forum. I am not going to rehash all of our earlier discussions -- feel free to go read the earlier threads if you have forgotten. If you believe that criticizing an entire religion is beneficial for achieving your goals -- whatever they are -- then by all means do it. I have never prevented you from doing it. IS has made clear that they welcome your doing exactly that. For myself, I advocate a smarter strategy. Instead of dividing Muslims from the West, we should divide Muslims from IS. I don't believe that you do that by insulting them.

Thanks for that. Another non-answer to my questions about whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think, whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe, or whether conciliation has worked historically. Thanks also for the sinister references to "whatever my goals are", suggestions that I've forgotten earlier discussions, and assertions that your way is "smarter". (Note: do NOT call me butthurt again. I always point out your insults because I think it's better than getting down in the mud with you.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Why can't you just say that?

How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes? I posted earlier that we need social and economic policies, so you don't own that, but it hasn't exactly worked in Europe either. Maybe they just need to try harder.... I still think, however, that as long as verses about how God wants you to kill unbelievers are allowed to stand without broad-based moral challenges, from within and outside Islam, then some future group like ISIS, the Taliban, or al Qaeda, maybe 50 years from now, will think they should act on these verses.

Signed, another fed up liberal

Here are answers to your questions:

1) "whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think". Muslims are no different than anyone else. Some are more sensitive than others. Just like DCUM posters.

2) "whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe". IS never made such a claim so they can neither be right nor wrong.

3) "whether conciliation has worked historically". Of course conciliation has worked historically. At one time, the US and Britain were bitter enemies. Now they are the closest of allies.

4) "How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes". First, avoid actions that actively drive more to IS. Then, try to understand legitimate grievances that might drive Muslims to IS and attempt to resolve those issues where possible. Build bridges with non-IS-supporting Muslims. Make clear that our issues are not with Islam, but with IS who se version of Islam is not compatible with the practices of most Muslims. Most importantly, do not try to tell Muslims what they should do. Support those Muslims who are already doing the things that you suggest, but let them lead their own change. We have our own glass house on which we can focus our efforts. Let us fix our own problems before trying to tell them what they need to do.

[Anonymous]

There are NO LEGITIMATE reasons to drive Muslims to Isis. Now I see your agenda. The rest sounds OK, but there is no legitimate reason to join a terror organization aimed at the overthrow of legitimate, reason based democracies. Sorry try again.

[Anonymous]

And I suppose you think Israel is one if those Legitimate grievances'. Well that girl isis held captive for months and months was I'm sure a huge supporter of Palestine. Didn't help her w Isis did it? Why don't you separate a longstanding geo political dispute that could be resolved if the players compromised from extremist/terror/evil. There is no legitimate grievance and they will kill western Palestine supporters as fast as you can say "boo"..in fact, they already have killed lots. Jordan support Palestine much?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are NO LEGITIMATE reasons to drive Muslims to Isis. Now I see your agenda. The rest sounds OK, but there is no legitimate reason to join a terror organization aimed at the overthrow of legitimate, reason based democracies. Sorry try again.

That is pretty incoherent.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:There are NO LEGITIMATE reasons to drive Muslims to Isis. Now I see your agenda. The rest sounds OK, but there is no legitimate reason to join a terror organization aimed at the overthrow of legitimate, reason based democracies. Sorry try again.

I think that you are wrong in your belief that every single IS supporter is driven by irrational motives. Moreover, none of the governments that IS is in the process of overthrowing can be remotely described as "legitimate, reason based democracies". The fact that those governments are not "legitimate, reason based democracies" is one of the legitimate grievances that drives people to IS.

[Anonymous]

Another example of sad consequences of U.S.'s hasty, thoughtless foreign policy. You hated Quaddafi - was he that bad? You like today's Libya better? Enjoy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you really believe Europe's Muslims are so fragile? I don't see mass Muslim insurrection in Europe ever happening on a mass scale. I've lived in Europe, I've been back several times in the past few years, I have relatives there, I read two of the languages fluently and a third somewhat, heck I even dated a few Algerians living in Europe (admittedly a while ago). Maybe a few thousand more might be turned to ISIS, maybe a few more terrorist attacks here and in Europe. But no way tens of thousands of Muslims in Europe are going to launch mass insurrection against their European states. That's ISIS' pipe dream but we don't need to buy into it.

Meanwhile, dissidents within Arab and Islamic countries are in jail or fear for their lives. Our silence hurts them rather than helping them.

It's like Chamberlain, always conciliating and missing the bigger picture. Are we really that scared? Are we really that impotent? Do we really see no way to handle alienation besides silence and winking at the anti-immigration folks? Like, I dunno, economic and social measures to reduce alienation? Is our silence really the only possible response? I'm sure you'll find the comparison to Chamberlain flattering, you're welcome.

I buried the lede. I believe that Islamic states and, yes, some parts of the theology need a reformation, yet we're all apparently too afraid of hurting feelings, or maybe really we're afraid of more terrorist attacks, to support the real Muslims who are calling for this reformation. After reading Islamic theologians and the Quran, I believe this, especially when it comes to rules for women and dealing with non-Muslims. You're going to tell me "there is no central Islamic theocracy like the Pope" but, leaving aside the wrong premise that the Pope speaks for all Christians, my answer is that one guy nailed a list of criticisms to a church wall and started a revolution. There are Muslims in the Islamic world doing this today, and they're getting killed and imprisoned for it, and our response is to sign a few petitions and... turn a blind eye. Whether it's from fear of hurting feelings or fear of provoking more terrorist attacks like ISIS thinks and it's comfortable to agree, I don't know.

There is no movement to reform to re-interpret the key tenets of Islam in the Muslim world today.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote: I agree that IS and Algerians living in Paris don't read DCUM. I said as much in an earlier post. I don't write for their benefit. Rather, I try to discuss things with the mostly US residents that read this forum. I am not going to rehash all of our earlier discussions -- feel free to go read the earlier threads if you have forgotten. If you believe that criticizing an entire religion is beneficial for achieving your goals -- whatever they are -- then by all means do it. I have never prevented you from doing it. IS has made clear that they welcome your doing exactly that. For myself, I advocate a smarter strategy. Instead of dividing Muslims from the West, we should divide Muslims from IS. I don't believe that you do that by insulting them.

Thanks for that. Another non-answer to my questions about whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think, whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe, or whether conciliation has worked historically. Thanks also for the sinister references to "whatever my goals are", suggestions that I've forgotten earlier discussions, and assertions that your way is "smarter". (Note: do NOT call me butthurt again. I always point out your insults because I think it's better than getting down in the mud with you.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Why can't you just say that?

How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes? I posted earlier that we need social and economic policies, so you don't own that, but it hasn't exactly worked in Europe either. Maybe they just need to try harder.... I still think, however, that as long as verses about how God wants you to kill unbelievers are allowed to stand without broad-based moral challenges, from within and outside Islam, then some future group like ISIS, the Taliban, or al Qaeda, maybe 50 years from now, will think they should act on these verses.

Signed, another fed up liberal

Here are answers to your questions:

1) "whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think". Muslims are no different than anyone else. Some are more sensitive than others. Just like DCUM posters.

2) "whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe". IS never made such a claim so they can neither be right nor wrong.

3) "whether conciliation has worked historically". Of course conciliation has worked historically. At one time, the US and Britain were bitter enemies. Now they are the closest of allies.

4) "How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes". First, avoid actions that actively drive more to IS. Then, try to understand legitimate grievances that might drive Muslims to IS and attempt to resolve those issues where possible. Build bridges with non-IS-supporting Muslims. Make clear that our issues are not with Islam, but with IS who se version of Islam is not compatible with the practices of most Muslims. Most importantly, do not try to tell Muslims what they should do. Support those Muslims who are already doing the things that you suggest, but let them lead their own change. We have our own glass house on which we can focus our efforts. Let us fix our own problems before trying to tell them what they need to do.

Thank you for a very thoughtful response. I have multiple meetings today so I'll try to get back later with an equally thoughtful response. It may boil down to "we disagree" but I'll put more thought into it.

[Anonymous]

There is zero legitimate reason to join Isis. Zero. They are beyond the pale and all who join them to be forever condemned.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

As I have said before, the communists used to talk about "sharpening the contradictions" and creating a situation in which people were forced to choose sides. IS is following the same strategy. Read this article about the latest issue of the group's magazine:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/12/new-islamic-state-magazines-brags-eliminating-grayzone/

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

The more people like you react in the way you are, the better it serves the goals of IS. IS absolutely wants you to hold the entire Muslim religion guilty for their deeds. They absolutely want you to hate all Muslims.

Yet you jump at the chance to spread division and hate by labling the Chapel Hill murders a hate crime before the facts are in. Good job serving IS's goals and purposes hypocrite.

Man, there are a few out there who are so obsessed with criticizing anything I write that you have lost all touch with any sense of logic. Do you seriously not know the difference between suggesting a linkage between an individual's Facebook posting and his motive for committing a crime and the tarnishing of the religious beliefs of an entire group? Who was being divided by correctly stating that Hicks' Facebook posting showed that he was strongly anti-religious? How does that help IS?

Except you didn't do that. You said in the chapel hill thread that "People like Bill Maher, Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins have made anti-Islamic bigotry acceptable among progressives" tarring all anti-theists and leading anti-theist figures with what you concluded, without the facts, was a hate crime. I expect your narrative of Muslims being targets of hate crimes fueled by the likes of Dawkins, Harris et. al. will soon be used by Islamists to justify coming atrocities. Good job hatemongering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rome?

Egypt is south of Rome.

very south

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rome?

Egypt is south of Rome.

very south

Reference to “Rome” in a previously received message from ISIL:

And so we promise you by Allah’s permission that this campaign will be your final campaign. It will be broken and defeated, just as all your previous campaigns were broken and defeated, except that this time we will raid you thereafter, and you will never raid us. We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women, by the permission of Allah, the Exalted. This is His promise to us; He is glorified and He does not fail in His promise. If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.

Note the date of the article:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/islamic-state-we-will-conquer-your-rome-break-your-crosses-and-enslave-your-women-by-the-permission-of-allah