21 Egyptian Christians Beheaded in Libya

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

As I have said before, the communists used to talk about "sharpening the contradictions" and creating a situation in which people were forced to choose sides. IS is following the same strategy. Read this article about the latest issue of the group's magazine:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/12/new-islamic-state-magazines-brags-eliminating-grayzone/

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

The more people like you react in the way you are, the better it serves the goals of IS. IS absolutely wants you to hold the entire Muslim religion guilty for their deeds. They absolutely want you to hate all Muslims.

Yet you jump at the chance to spread division and hate by labling the Chapel Hill murders a hate crime before the facts are in. Good job serving IS's goals and purposes hypocrite.

Man, there are a few out there who are so obsessed with criticizing anything I write that you have lost all touch with any sense of logic. Do you seriously not know the difference between suggesting a linkage between an individual's Facebook posting and his motive for committing a crime and the tarnishing of the religious beliefs of an entire group? Who was being divided by correctly stating that Hicks' Facebook posting showed that he was strongly anti-religious? How does that help IS?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

Jeff, you seem to have little respect for moderate muslims, i.e. the vast majority of the Muslim world. Do you really believe that every Muslim in a potential ISIS recruit, and if we keep making sardonic comments like "peaceful religion " after a mass ISIS beheading, that we are going to drive moderate Muslims into the hands of ISIS? That doesn't sound like any of the Muslims I know.

Do I have this right? Criticism of Islam is simply a sign of respect for moderate Muslims? Do you live in opposite world? Criticizing a entire group -- most of whom strongly oppose IS and many of whom are actively fighting against it -- is going to increase animosity and alienation among that group. Nobody is going to thank you for showing them respect by insulting their beliefs. Does that make every Muslim a potential IS recruit? No, but it certainly increases the pool of potential IS recruits. When IS openly describes their strategy as trying to divide Muslims from the West, you should probably believe them.

[Anonymous]

Shhhh, get with the program, folks. These are Christians so their lives have little value. These deaths were just random, anyway, like those Jewish deli victims.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

Jeff, you seem to have little respect for moderate muslims, i.e. the vast majority of the Muslim world. Do you really believe that every Muslim in a potential ISIS recruit, and if we keep making sardonic comments like "peaceful religion " after a mass ISIS beheading, that we are going to drive moderate Muslims into the hands of ISIS? That doesn't sound like any of the Muslims I know.

Do I have this right? Criticism of Islam is simply a sign of respect for moderate Muslims? Do you live in opposite world? Criticizing a entire group -- most of whom strongly oppose IS and many of whom are actively fighting against it -- is going to increase animosity and alienation among that group. Nobody is going to thank you for showing them respect by insulting their beliefs. Does that make every Muslim a potential IS recruit? No, but it certainly increases the pool of potential IS recruits. When IS openly describes their strategy as trying to divide Muslims from the West, you should probably believe them.

Agree with PP that you are basically agreeing with ISIS, that there are many Muslims who can easily be pushed into the arms of ISIS if we hurt their feelings by criticizing their religion.

Also agree with PP that your position is based on the assumption that criticism always provokes anger rather than self-examination or even, God forbid, reformation. ISIS' strategy is based on the same assumption. Sure, Arab nationalism and Islamic pride have played big roles since the colonial era, but that shouldn't define everything the west does.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

Jeff, you seem to have little respect for moderate muslims, i.e. the vast majority of the Muslim world. Do you really believe that every Muslim in a potential ISIS recruit, and if we keep making sardonic comments like "peaceful religion " after a mass ISIS beheading, that we are going to drive moderate Muslims into the hands of ISIS? That doesn't sound like any of the Muslims I know.

Do I have this right? Criticism of Islam is simply a sign of respect for moderate Muslims? Do you live in opposite world? Criticizing a entire group -- most of whom strongly oppose IS and many of whom are actively fighting against it -- is going to increase animosity and alienation among that group. Nobody is going to thank you for showing them respect by insulting their beliefs. Does that make every Muslim a potential IS recruit? No, but it certainly increases the pool of potential IS recruits. When IS openly describes their strategy as trying to divide Muslims from the West, you should probably believe them.

Agree with PP that you are basically agreeing with ISIS, that there are many Muslims who can easily be pushed into the arms of ISIS if we hurt their feelings by criticizing their religion.

Also agree with PP that your position is based on the assumption that criticism always provokes anger rather than self-examination or even, God forbid, reformation. ISIS' strategy is based on the same assumption. Sure, Arab nationalism and Islamic pride have played big roles since the colonial era, but that shouldn't define everything the west does.

This will surprise you: alienated people engage in anti-social behaviors. The more that you contribute to the alienation of otherwise peace-loving people, the more you add to the potential pool who will act on their anger. That is simple fact.

Can you please explain to me what you believe are the benefits of broadly and generally insulting Muslims?

[Anonymous]

I am a right-wing Republican and would never condemn all Muslims for the brutality of ISIL and other radical groups. I know many peace-loving Muslims.
What I don’t understand is why this administration will not use the term “radical Islamists” when even many Muslim leaders use this term.
They ARE radical and they ARE Islamists. Saying so does not condemn all Muslims.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

Jeff, you seem to have little respect for moderate muslims, i.e. the vast majority of the Muslim world. Do you really believe that every Muslim in a potential ISIS recruit, and if we keep making sardonic comments like "peaceful religion " after a mass ISIS beheading, that we are going to drive moderate Muslims into the hands of ISIS? That doesn't sound like any of the Muslims I know.

Do I have this right? Criticism of Islam is simply a sign of respect for moderate Muslims? Do you live in opposite world? Criticizing a entire group -- most of whom strongly oppose IS and many of whom are actively fighting against it -- is going to increase animosity and alienation among that group. Nobody is going to thank you for showing them respect by insulting their beliefs. Does that make every Muslim a potential IS recruit? No, but it certainly increases the pool of potential IS recruits. When IS openly describes their strategy as trying to divide Muslims from the West, you should probably believe them.

Agree with PP that you are basically agreeing with ISIS, that there are many Muslims who can easily be pushed into the arms of ISIS if we hurt their feelings by criticizing their religion.

Also agree with PP that your position is based on the assumption that criticism always provokes anger rather than self-examination or even, God forbid, reformation. ISIS' strategy is based on the same assumption. Sure, Arab nationalism and Islamic pride have played big roles since the colonial era, but that shouldn't define everything the west does.

This will surprise you: alienated people engage in anti-social behaviors. The more that you contribute to the alienation of otherwise peace-loving people, the more you add to the potential pool who will act on their anger. That is simple fact.

Can you please explain to me what you believe are the benefits of broadly and generally insulting Muslims?

Do you really believe Europe's Muslims are so fragile? I don't see mass Muslim insurrection in Europe ever happening on a mass scale. I've lived in Europe, I've been back several times in the past few years, I have relatives there, I read two of the languages fluently and a third somewhat, heck I even dated a few Algerians living in Europe (admittedly a while ago). Maybe a few thousand more might be turned to ISIS, maybe a few more terrorist attacks here and in Europe. But no way tens of thousands of Muslims in Europe are going to launch mass insurrection against their European states. That's ISIS' pipe dream but we don't need to buy into it.

Meanwhile, dissidents within Arab and Islamic countries are in jail or fear for their lives. Our silence hurts them rather than helping them.

It's like Chamberlain, always conciliating and missing the bigger picture. Are we really that scared? Are we really that impotent? Do we really see no way to handle alienation besides silence and winking at the anti-immigration folks? Like, I dunno, economic and social measures to reduce alienation? Is our silence really the only possible response? I'm sure you'll find the comparison to Chamberlain flattering, you're welcome.

[Anonymous]

This sounds a little.like blackmail - u can't draw cartoons and you can't criticize fringe groups in my religion as drawing a religious rationale or I will go from.peace-loving to a head chopperoffer? Are you really that peace loving if its that easy to move the dial to alienated killer? Is our goal to stand up for universal human values or to appease killers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you really believe Europe's Muslims are so fragile? I don't see mass Muslim insurrection in Europe ever happening on a mass scale. I've lived in Europe, I've been back several times in the past few years, I have relatives there, I read two of the languages fluently and a third somewhat, heck I even dated a few Algerians living in Europe (admittedly a while ago). Maybe a few thousand more might be turned to ISIS, maybe a few more terrorist attacks here and in Europe. But no way tens of thousands of Muslims in Europe are going to launch mass insurrection against their European states. That's ISIS' pipe dream but we don't need to buy into it.

Meanwhile, dissidents within Arab and Islamic countries are in jail or fear for their lives. Our silence hurts them rather than helping them.

It's like Chamberlain, always conciliating and missing the bigger picture. Are we really that scared? Are we really that impotent? Do we really see no way to handle alienation besides silence and winking at the anti-immigration folks? Like, I dunno, economic and social measures to reduce alienation? Is our silence really the only possible response? I'm sure you'll find the comparison to Chamberlain flattering, you're welcome.

I buried the lede. I believe that Islamic states and, yes, some parts of the theology need a reformation, yet we're all apparently too afraid of hurting feelings, or maybe really we're afraid of more terrorist attacks, to support the real Muslims who are calling for this reformation. After reading Islamic theologians and the Quran, I believe this, especially when it comes to rules for women and dealing with non-Muslims. You're going to tell me "there is no central Islamic theocracy like the Pope" but, leaving aside the wrong premise that the Pope speaks for all Christians, my answer is that one guy nailed a list of criticisms to a church wall and started a revolution. There are Muslims in the Islamic world doing this today, and they're getting killed and imprisoned for it, and our response is to sign a few petitions and... turn a blind eye. Whether it's from fear of hurting feelings or fear of provoking more terrorist attacks like ISIS thinks and it's comfortable to agree, I don't know.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:This sounds a little.like blackmail - u can't draw cartoons and you can't criticize fringe groups in my religion as drawing a religious rationale or I will go from.peace-loving to a head chopperoffer? Are you really that peace loving if its that easy to move the dial to alienated killer? Is our goal to stand up for universal human values or to appease killers

Please, I am so tired of the "distort your argument so that I can criticize it" tactic that I constantly encounter here. I am specifically arguing the opposite of saying you can't criticize fringe groups. Rather, I am arguing that attacking the entire religion increases divisions with members of that group. I am baffled that this is not simply accepted as fact. Criticizing the fringe groups is exactly what I suggest we do. Accurate and specific criticism is exactly what is needed. IS had committed atrocities for which there is no excuse or justification. They should be condemned without equivocation. But, their actions say nothing about Islam as a whole.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Do you really believe Europe's Muslims are so fragile? I don't see mass Muslim insurrection in Europe ever happening on a mass scale. I've lived in Europe, I've been back several times in the past few years, I have relatives there, I read two of the languages fluently and a third somewhat, heck I even dated a few Algerians living in Europe (admittedly a while ago). Maybe a few thousand more might be turned to ISIS, maybe a few more terrorist attacks here and in Europe. But no way tens of thousands of Muslims in Europe are going to launch mass insurrection against their European states. That's ISIS' pipe dream but we don't need to buy into it.

Meanwhile, dissidents within Arab and Islamic countries are in jail or fear for their lives. Our silence hurts them rather than helping them.

It's like Chamberlain, always conciliating and missing the bigger picture. Are we really that scared? Are we really that impotent? Do we really see no way to handle alienation besides silence and winking at the anti-immigration folks? Like, I dunno, economic and social measures to reduce alienation? Is our silence really the only possible response? I'm sure you'll find the comparison to Chamberlain flattering, you're welcome.

Based on your logic, all Christianity should be criticized because of groups like the LRA, the KKK, and Westboro Baptist. Those groups prove that Christianity is clearly a religion of hate. If you suggest otherwise, you are clearly appeasing the extremists.

Do you believe that the best way to support moderate voices within Islam is to insult their religion?

[Anonymous]

Saying radical Christian or radical.Muslim to me differentiates from the peace lovers. Its just different ways of looking at it. But neither attacks the entire group.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Saying radical Christian or radical.Muslim to me differentiates from the peace lovers. Its just different ways of looking at it. But neither attacks the entire group.

I am not complaining about saying "radical Muslim". The post that I criticized said "Islam" which refers to the entire religion. I think we should be even more specific than simply saying "radical". We are really concerned with those that resort to violence and oppression. They can be as radical as they want if they don't engage in violence and oppression.

[Anonymous]

Martyrs of Libya - rest in peace!

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This sounds a little.like blackmail - u can't draw cartoons and you can't criticize fringe groups in my religion as drawing a religious rationale or I will go from.peace-loving to a head chopperoffer? Are you really that peace loving if its that easy to move the dial to alienated killer? Is our goal to stand up for universal human values or to appease killers

Please, I am so tired of the "distort your argument so that I can criticize it" tactic that I constantly encounter here. I am specifically arguing the opposite of saying you can't criticize fringe groups. Rather, I am arguing that attacking the entire religion increases divisions with members of that group. I am baffled that this is not simply accepted as fact. Criticizing the fringe groups is exactly what I suggest we do. Accurate and specific criticism is exactly what is needed. IS had committed atrocities for which there is no excuse or justification. They should be condemned without equivocation. But, their actions say nothing about Islam as a whole.

Then lead by example. I'm not that poster but you've twisted my posts many times and I've watched you twist others'. I'm still waiting for your response to my posts above. I'm predicting something about how I supposedly wrote that Obama should criticize this or that sura, and toss in an underlying assumption that Obama and DCUM should play by the same rule book. Did I nail it?