Thoughts on supsending preschool students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's probably not the case with the child in this article, but a huge problem is lack of sleep making little kids cranky and in some cases violent. I personally know of two kids this age who were suspended from daycare where the main issue was that mom and dad had to get everyone up really, really early to get everyone to school and work, sometimes via public transportation. I think that the bad performance of many neighborhood schools driving families to commute further in search of better schools has a downside in that it makes it harder to get kids enough sleep. I'd love to see DC do a public education campaign on the importance of proper sleep, and to get to the point where all neighborhood schools are good schools.

Absolutely. Add to that the fact that kids in distressed neighborhoods are often living in apartment buildings or on streets where there is noise all hours of the night. People out all night, sirens, stuff going on in the apartments/houses next door... it all adds to a situation where sleep can be difficult and is rarely uninterrupted.

This is not the authors situation. She is a professional woman living in a nice community with lots of support. Read her website and twitter. Big difference from kids in that environment and one she is providing.

There is a difference between a tantrum and throwing a chair.

Some of us are applying this whole thing to DC, since DC has also posted high suspension rates in PS and PK and DCPS schools have been told to stop suspending, I think through K (could be wrong and could just be PS and PK though). I've moved beyond this one woman, though I know her situation is what this thread started about. This is a much much bigger problem, this is the DC public schools forum, and I'm not talking about the woman in the article.

The point about sleep absolutely applies to the neighborhoods of the DC schools with the highest %s of challenging preschoolers and preKers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No thoughts on the claims that multiple children in the class have shown disruptive behavior? Sounds like there are classroom management issues going on as well.

Or that this is a preschool in a rough part of DC. For many kids preschool is their first time out of the house and it can really be when disruptive behaviors are shown. There are behaviors that can be managed by a teacher and then those that are so outside the real of classroom management.
As for thoughts about suspending a preschooler. Its tough. It it were impacting my kids preschool education- I would want a more permanent solution than suspension. Support, special education services, and counseling.

This is not a DC school.

Where is it? The article didn't say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with OP and PP--I don't see how suspending a preschooler is at all appropriate or helpful.

Then what is the alternative. Mom would be more pissed if they moved him to a class for kids with behavioral problems.

You can do interventions on children in a classroom setting. You don't have to move them. In situations where a child is exhibting difficult or extreme behaviors the parents, taechers and school support staff should convene for a SST meeting and create a behavioral plan for the kid and see if he needs different support systems (counseling? being tested for special education) The hard thing is that sometimes parents (paticuaraly in low SES backgrounds) are resistant to their child being labeled in any way even though having an IEP or 504 plan can do more to help a kid.

Do you want your kids in a classroom with a violent child who throws chairs.

No. But given that this behavior was repeating itself, clearly suspensions were not effective.

[Anonymous]

One of the points of the article was that white students had done similar things , including hospitalizing a classmate, yet they were not being suspended. My daycare would never dream of suspending a kid, yet I don't think that the kids are all treated equally. There seems to be a rush to label low SES AA boys as behavior problems, while white kids with similar behavior are treated as if they are just going through a phase. Interestingly, at our daycare, middle class AA boys are not regarded as behavior problems; they have parents who volunteer at the school and are considered "mainstay" families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with OP and PP--I don't see how suspending a preschooler is at all appropriate or helpful.

Then what is the alternative. Mom would be more pissed if they moved him to a class for kids with behavioral problems.

You can do interventions on children in a classroom setting. You don't have to move them. In situations where a child is exhibting difficult or extreme behaviors the parents, taechers and school support staff should convene for a SST meeting and create a behavioral plan for the kid and see if he needs different support systems (counseling? being tested for special education) The hard thing is that sometimes parents (paticuaraly in low SES backgrounds) are resistant to their child being labeled in any way even though having an IEP or 504 plan can do more to help a kid.

Do you want your kids in a classroom with a violent child who throws chairs.

No. But given that this behavior was repeating itself, clearly suspensions were not effective.

Then maybe the parent should be looking at what she is doing with the child during that suspension day. There is more to this story and this is a publicity stunt that clearly worked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No thoughts on the claims that multiple children in the class have shown disruptive behavior? Sounds like there are classroom management issues going on as well.

We have a thread winner, kids! The kids are alright....the "preschool educators" and the system sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom was looking for attention to write a story. I'd be embarrassed to admit my child was behaving like that in school. If the child acted like that in school, he should be suspended, regardless of race. Mom need to focus on parenting and look at what is going on at home and school for them to behave that way. I would fully expect my child to be suspended if they behaved that way. Why should they get a free pass over race? Since when is it ok to do things like hit and throw chairs at school?

Well, if you were treated like some of these kids are, you would too. Their expectations of 3 and 4 yo's and the way they talk to/about them is fucked up. You "perfect" mommies need to STFU unless you've had a child in one of these schools.

It's not about the mommy, it's about the child. If my child is in danger of your child throwing a chair (??!! what the hell is wrong in your family??!!) then your child needs to be suspended until he/she learns how to behave in polite company.

My job, as a good mother, is to protect my children from harm. That includes even watching little freaks throw chairs around the room.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's probably not the case with the child in this article, but a huge problem is lack of sleep making little kids cranky and in some cases violent. I personally know of two kids this age who were suspended from daycare where the main issue was that mom and dad had to get everyone up really, really early to get everyone to school and work, sometimes via public transportation. I think that the bad performance of many neighborhood schools driving families to commute further in search of better schools has a downside in that it makes it harder to get kids enough sleep. I'd love to see DC do a public education campaign on the importance of proper sleep, and to get to the point where all neighborhood schools are good schools.

Absolutely. Add to that the fact that kids in distressed neighborhoods are often living in apartment buildings or on streets where there is noise all hours of the night. People out all night, sirens, stuff going on in the apartments/houses next door... it all adds to a situation where sleep can be difficult and is rarely uninterrupted.

Same PP - just to be clear though, I think the majority of kids with really really challenging behavior is from those kids being exposed to either lack of supervision or actual bad behaviors at home. Sleeplessness can make some kids cranky, but the kids really acting out usually have a lot more going on than just being tired.

I don't think anyone should underestimate the effects of sleep deprivation. There's some statistic out there that four out of every five oeople gets less than seven hours' sleep and I'm pretty sure it's the root cause of most of the assholery in my workplace. My kid's a total Mr. Hyde if he gets to sleep just a half hour past his normal bedtime.

It's not just low-income households. And, since I'm the one who mentioned my kid's food allergies, I have to say the prevalence of food allergies - especially those undiagnosed - can be a really insidious stress inducer that exacerbate every problem and affect everyone's behavior. You have no idea what is going on and the people who are supposed to help (in our case, our pediatrician) have no clue what to do. The memory of that frustration makes me want to throw a chair. Seriously. We had great teachers at our (private) preschool who said look into allergies and thankfully not, "get your kid out of our school."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom was looking for attention to write a story. I'd be embarrassed to admit my child was behaving like that in school. If the child acted like that in school, he should be suspended, regardless of race. Mom need to focus on parenting and look at what is going on at home and school for them to behave that way. I would fully expect my child to be suspended if they behaved that way. Why should they get a free pass over race? Since when is it ok to do things like hit and throw chairs at school?

Well, if you were treated like some of these kids are, you would too. Their expectations of 3 and 4 yo's and the way they talk to/about them is fucked up. You "perfect" mommies need to STFU unless you've had a child in one of these schools.

It's not about the mommy, it's about the child. If my child is in danger of your child throwing a chair (??!! what the hell is wrong in your family??!!) then your child needs to be suspended until he/she learns how to behave in polite company.

My job, as a good mother, is to protect my children from harm. That includes even watching little freaks throw chairs around the room.

What about the teachers? Thirty years ago, when I was in second grade, our evil troll of a teacher threw a chair because she was pissed we weren't behaving. Guess what happened to her? Nothing. She was white. Schools have a responsibility to teach all kids and they often fail because kids live up to the expectations that are set for them. When they are set low, and treated like "bad" kids, they act accordingly. You live a sheltered life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom was looking for attention to write a story. I'd be embarrassed to admit my child was behaving like that in school. If the child acted like that in school, he should be suspended, regardless of race. Mom need to focus on parenting and look at what is going on at home and school for them to behave that way. I would fully expect my child to be suspended if they behaved that way. Why should they get a free pass over race? Since when is it ok to do things like hit and throw chairs at school?

Well, if you were treated like some of these kids are, you would too. Their expectations of 3 and 4 yo's and the way they talk to/about them is fucked up. You "perfect" mommies need to STFU unless you've had a child in one of these schools.

It's not about the mommy, it's about the child. If my child is in danger of your child throwing a chair (??!! what the hell is wrong in your family??!!) then your child needs to be suspended until he/she learns how to behave in polite company.

My job, as a good mother, is to protect my children from harm. That includes even watching little freaks throw chairs around the room.

You're right, that is your job as a mother. Public school systems' jobs are to educate ALL the children who want to attend their schools, with an effort to engage and support the ones in trouble as much as possible. Suspensions don't work for very young kids, and there are in-school supports that DO work, and that is what schools should know about and do (which supports discussed upthread). Unfortunately we have multiple public schools systems (including DC) where the schools neither have the supports or training they need to make real efforts to support and educate those kids and engage their parents, but suspending them doesn't work either, which is a nasty catch 22 to be in. It is unfair to the acting up kid (who, regardless of winners like you who use terms "little freaks", is too young to be at fault and very likely his parents either don't see a problem or don't know what to do), as well as the kids around the acting up kids, as well as the teachers who don't know how to handle them. The situation sucks. But suspending will often make those kids worse and if the kid has a right to go to school, informed (NOT!) and empathetic (NOT!) parents like YOU should be lobbying for the resources that will make a difference. Because barring something extreme, that kid has a right to an education and if they don't get real supports, you may be faced with either moving your kid or having to deal with a situation that will just get worse.

It sucks and is a vicious cycle, but calling kids names and yelling for them to be suspended does nothing to fix it. Why don't you channel your vitriol towards learning what works and advocating for actual solutions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of assumptions being made here on all sides. That's to be expected from parents, but I would expect a school to have better resources and tools at their disposal to address the problem long before they resort to the last-ditch effort of suspension.

Most kids exhibiting disruptive behavior are not "problem kids". In almost all cases, it's a kid with a problem. And with preschoolers, we're talking kids who are just beginning to understand their emotions and don't have many coping mechanisms.

When I think of my own 4 year old, he's a really good kid who has moments but they're usually stemming from something I can fix: he's hungry, didn't get enough sleep, frustrated, nervous about a new situation. Then there are slightly more difficult issues that take some sleuthing, like when he went days without eating because he had an undiscovered food allergy to something I put in his lunch every day. Because he didn't want to sit still in front of something that was making him sick, he got up and walked around picking at others' food with predictable conflicts ensuing. Or when he stopped liking aftercare (something he'd previously loved) when the 3 boys he'd always played with started excluding him. Out of the blue, he started throwing unbelievable tantrums at pick up time. Not because he'd turned into a problem kid, but because he was distressed about something and needed my attention.

But if the assumption is just that he's a bad kid with bad parents? That's compounding a problem, not solving it. Preschool educators need to be about solving it. That's one place where youthful exuberance in a teacher is great, but experience in classroom management is more important. Teacher-student ratio is also a factor and that means the teacher should be getting more help, training and/or resources, not kicking kids out of school.

DCPS has more than enough money than it knows what to do with. Yet, that's still crippling when it doesn't know how to do anything right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom was looking for attention to write a story. I'd be embarrassed to admit my child was behaving like that in school. If the child acted like that in school, he should be suspended, regardless of race. Mom need to focus on parenting and look at what is going on at home and school for them to behave that way. I would fully expect my child to be suspended if they behaved that way. Why should they get a free pass over race? Since when is it ok to do things like hit and throw chairs at school?

Well, if you were treated like some of these kids are, you would too. Their expectations of 3 and 4 yo's and the way they talk to/about them is fucked up. You "perfect" mommies need to STFU unless you've had a child in one of these schools.

It's not about the mommy, it's about the child. If my child is in danger of your child throwing a chair (??!! what the hell is wrong in your family??!!) then your child needs to be suspended until he/she learns how to behave in polite company.

My job, as a good mother, is to protect my children from harm. That includes even watching little freaks throw chairs around the room.

What about the teachers? Thirty years ago, when I was in second grade, our evil troll of a teacher threw a chair because she was pissed we weren't behaving. Guess what happened to her? Nothing. She was white. Schools have a responsibility to teach all kids and they often fail because kids live up to the expectations that are set for them. When they are set low, and treated like "bad" kids, they act accordingly. You live a sheltered life.

It is amazing how often teachers or other school staff escalate the problems. Probably most of them would be a bit more sane if they were actually properly prepared to manage those classrooms. But as a parent I've seen with my own eyes DCPS elementary school staff just make it so.much.worse. Some schools have very little that makes a kid feel like anyone wants them or believes in them. And that is proven in a zillion studies and ways to just make it more likely kids will act up, even kids who weren't pre-disposed to acting up if they see chaos all around them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom was looking for attention to write a story. I'd be embarrassed to admit my child was behaving like that in school. If the child acted like that in school, he should be suspended, regardless of race. Mom need to focus on parenting and look at what is going on at home and school for them to behave that way. I would fully expect my child to be suspended if they behaved that way. Why should they get a free pass over race? Since when is it ok to do things like hit and throw chairs at school?

Well, if you were treated like some of these kids are, you would too. Their expectations of 3 and 4 yo's and the way they talk to/about them is fucked up. You "perfect" mommies need to STFU unless you've had a child in one of these schools.

It's not about the mommy, it's about the child. If my child is in danger of your child throwing a chair (??!! what the hell is wrong in your family??!!) then your child needs to be suspended until he/she learns how to behave in polite company.

My job, as a good mother, is to protect my children from harm. That includes even watching little freaks throw chairs around the room.

You're right, that is your job as a mother. Public school systems' jobs are to educate ALL the children who want to attend their schools, with an effort to engage and support the ones in trouble as much as possible. Suspensions don't work for very young kids, and there are in-school supports that DO work, and that is what schools should know about and do (which supports discussed upthread). Unfortunately we have multiple public schools systems (including DC) where the schools neither have the supports or training they need to make real efforts to support and educate those kids and engage their parents, but suspending them doesn't work either, which is a nasty catch 22 to be in. It is unfair to the acting up kid (who, regardless of winners like you who use terms "little freaks", is too young to be at fault and very likely his parents either don't see a problem or don't know what to do), as well as the kids around the acting up kids, as well as the teachers who don't know how to handle them. The situation sucks. But suspending will often make those kids worse and if the kid has a right to go to school, informed (NOT!) and empathetic (NOT!) parents like YOU should be lobbying for the resources that will make a difference. Because barring something extreme, that kid has a right to an education and if they don't get real supports, you may be faced with either moving your kid or having to deal with a situation that will just get worse.

It sucks and is a vicious cycle, but calling kids names and yelling for them to be suspended does nothing to fix it. Why don't you channel your vitriol towards learning what works and advocating for actual solutions?

This child was throwing chairs and doing other violent acts. You do not minimize safety for kids and staff. Sure, there are the ideas of more services and more staff but that isn't going to happen so families like this mom need to step up and instead of complaining be a part of the solution. I have a special needs kid. I know the school cannot provide him with what he needs so we are forced to go private. Public education is great for kids who can do it but many of us have to look outside the box to best meet our kids needs. This mom is in denial. She should be at the school every day addressing the issues with the staff and getting the child the help he needs to succeed - i.e. therapy, behavioralist in the classroom. You are not talking about a poor struggling parent. You are talking about one using her writing/author to publicize her child's faults to make money. Maybe if she put more time into the child instead of writing articles that in the future could be devastating to him, this child might have more of a chance at success. It is not the schools job to parent. For a child with needs, it is up to the parent to be proactive. Not just drop/pick up the child and ignore anything in the middle. Its easy to blame shift and blame the schools but we all know they aren't equipped and funding for the kinds of support needed will never happen as they are very costly.

[Anonymous]

For all of the posters who think that suspension is inappropriate, what would you pose a school do with these children who have serious issues and are a threat to other children and themselves? I would love to see some of you all handle some of these students that are attending these schools and then hear what you have to say. The parents and teachers who generally are against these measures have not worked in these environments or leave shortly afterwards because of behavior issues.

I don't think that suspension should be used regularly, but it should be used if student behavior isn't changed after implementing strategic interventions. Parents should also be required to do more in these classes as well to help support improved behaviors and social interactions with peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom was looking for attention to write a story. I'd be embarrassed to admit my child was behaving like that in school. If the child acted like that in school, he should be suspended, regardless of race. Mom need to focus on parenting and look at what is going on at home and school for them to behave that way. I would fully expect my child to be suspended if they behaved that way. Why should they get a free pass over race? Since when is it ok to do things like hit and throw chairs at school?

Well, if you were treated like some of these kids are, you would too. Their expectations of 3 and 4 yo's and the way they talk to/about them is fucked up. You "perfect" mommies need to STFU unless you've had a child in one of these schools.

It's not about the mommy, it's about the child. If my child is in danger of your child throwing a chair (??!! what the hell is wrong in your family??!!) then your child needs to be suspended until he/she learns how to behave in polite company.

My job, as a good mother, is to protect my children from harm. That includes even watching little freaks throw chairs around the room.

What about the teachers? Thirty years ago, when I was in second grade, our evil troll of a teacher threw a chair because she was pissed we weren't behaving. Guess what happened to her? Nothing. She was white. Schools have a responsibility to teach all kids and they often fail because kids live up to the expectations that are set for them. When they are set low, and treated like "bad" kids, they act accordingly. You live a sheltered life.

Lots of things in schools and at home were acceptable 30 years ago. We all have our stories to tell. That does not make it ok for a child to be throwing chairs. Imagine if your child had a serious injury due to being hit by the chair. What would you say then?