Humanize Palestine

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

That is just an Islamic term and really has been vilified by the West. We even call people who die in childbirth and car accidents martyrs. In Islam, we believe that certain types of deaths elevate the person to a certain level in the Hereafter, because of how painful or tragic the death is. The arabic term is "Shaheed". This has nothing to do with wanting to die, or suicide bombing, terrorism ect.

-The one who dies from a long disease is considered a martyr
-A pregnant woman who dies in pregnancy or while giving birth is considered a martyr
-Whoever is killed defending his property is a martyr.
-he who dies in defense of his own life is a martyr; he who dies in defense of his faith is a martyr; and he who dies in defense of his family is a martyr.
-The one who speaks to a tyrannical leader and commands and forbids him, then the latter kills him–he is a martyr
-Whoever is killed unjustly is considered a martyr.
ect....

E
So, whenever a Muslim dies in one of these ways, you will hear other Muslims call him/her "Martyr" and that is why you hear that in Palestine. Muslims believe that the highest and most honorable death is to die as a Martyr, that doesn't mean we walk around wanting to die or we want to die on a battlefield. To the contrary, like i said earlier even dying in a car accident is considered dying as a martyr. We just believe that the reward of the martyr is superior to any other in the after life, and we consider people who are killed in Palestine of having been killed unjustly, that is why you will hear people call them "Martyrs"

Thank you for the explanation.

I think it helps explain why those who clearly wanted to live in peace, those who were prepared to die if necessary for their country and, yes, those who have caused or provoked their own deaths all have been called martys. You are right that the term often has a negative connotation to a Western ear, and I sensed there was more to it than one could glean from various sources of propoganda.

You're welcome. Just one more clarification : Causing your own death is not considered martyrdom, for exemple, suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam and not a path to martyrdom at all...

This is such a BS exchange. If this isn't sock puppeting them no doubt the person posing the question already knew the answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

Let me get this straight. You are insulted that someone is trying to humanize Palestinians? You actually believe that it is a lie that Palestinians could be humanized. And, this is because you don't believe Palestinians to be human?

Don't you know that the Israelis and their supporters are the same side of the coin as Joeseph Goebbles and his propaganda. The way they feel about palestinians is the way the Nazi felt about Jews. The way Hitler and his supporters dehumanized the Jews is the way Israel and it's supporters dehumanize Palestinians. You would think they of all people would get this and have empathy.

You have no clue, absolutely none, of who Joseph Goebbles was. Present day nazi party wannabes share your sentiment, and they are well aware of his full history.

As a supporter of Palestine, I would NEVER associate myself with anything of the Goebbles or his associates including Hitler just to make a political point. Many feel empathy for Israeli fear and Palestine's desperate need for liberation. But to equate this conflict with the likes of the Final Solution, I cannot and will not go there.

I am not Jewish but I definitely would have been part of the Final Solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

That is just an Islamic term and really has been vilified by the West. We even call people who die in childbirth and car accidents martyrs. In Islam, we believe that certain types of deaths elevate the person to a certain level in the Hereafter, because of how painful or tragic the death is. The arabic term is "Shaheed". This has nothing to do with wanting to die, or suicide bombing, terrorism ect.

-The one who dies from a long disease is considered a martyr
-A pregnant woman who dies in pregnancy or while giving birth is considered a martyr
-Whoever is killed defending his property is a martyr.
-he who dies in defense of his own life is a martyr; he who dies in defense of his faith is a martyr; and he who dies in defense of his family is a martyr.
-The one who speaks to a tyrannical leader and commands and forbids him, then the latter kills him–he is a martyr
-Whoever is killed unjustly is considered a martyr.
ect....

E
So, whenever a Muslim dies in one of these ways, you will hear other Muslims call him/her "Martyr" and that is why you hear that in Palestine. Muslims believe that the highest and most honorable death is to die as a Martyr, that doesn't mean we walk around wanting to die or we want to die on a battlefield. To the contrary, like i said earlier even dying in a car accident is considered dying as a martyr. We just believe that the reward of the martyr is superior to any other in the after life, and we consider people who are killed in Palestine of having been killed unjustly, that is why you will hear people call them "Martyrs"

Thank you for the explanation.

I think it helps explain why those who clearly wanted to live in peace, those who were prepared to die if necessary for their country and, yes, those who have caused or provoked their own deaths all have been called martys. You are right that the term often has a negative connotation to a Western ear, and I sensed there was more to it than one could glean from various sources of propoganda.

You're welcome. Just one more clarification : Causing your own death is not considered martyrdom, for exemple, suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam and not a path to martyrdom at all...

This is such a BS exchange. If this isn't sock puppeting them no doubt the person posing the question already knew the answer.

Actually, no. I am not Muslima and I asked the question respectfully and got a detailed answer in response.

I am not unlike a lot of Americans right now, in that we have traditionally been pro-Israel but are now gaining an appreciation of the Palestinian point of view and are horrified at what Israel is doing in Gaza. But as I assess how I want to react and try to make a difference, I have many questions, one of which related to the characterization of civilians killed by Israel as "martyrs," a term which I associated with someone making a conscious sacrifice or being sacrificed intentionally. As noted, Muslima answered my question.

If you think that makes me a sock puppet, so be it, although Jeff can confirm we are different posters. I'm quite sure that I'm far less of a puppet for the Palestinians than many public officials in this country have become for Israel. I appreciate that you dislike having this pointed out.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

That is just an Islamic term and really has been vilified by the West. We even call people who die in childbirth and car accidents martyrs. In Islam, we believe that certain types of deaths elevate the person to a certain level in the Hereafter, because of how painful or tragic the death is. The arabic term is "Shaheed". This has nothing to do with wanting to die, or suicide bombing, terrorism ect.

-The one who dies from a long disease is considered a martyr
-A pregnant woman who dies in pregnancy or while giving birth is considered a martyr
-Whoever is killed defending his property is a martyr.
-he who dies in defense of his own life is a martyr; he who dies in defense of his faith is a martyr; and he who dies in defense of his family is a martyr.
-The one who speaks to a tyrannical leader and commands and forbids him, then the latter kills him–he is a martyr
-Whoever is killed unjustly is considered a martyr.
ect....

E
So, whenever a Muslim dies in one of these ways, you will hear other Muslims call him/her "Martyr" and that is why you hear that in Palestine. Muslims believe that the highest and most honorable death is to die as a Martyr, that doesn't mean we walk around wanting to die or we want to die on a battlefield. To the contrary, like i said earlier even dying in a car accident is considered dying as a martyr. We just believe that the reward of the martyr is superior to any other in the after life, and we consider people who are killed in Palestine of having been killed unjustly, that is why you will hear people call them "Martyrs"

So basically you glorify death. That's why Hamas uses human beings as shields.

We do not glorify death, we mourn our dead the same way you do, we hurt and pain the same way any other human does when they lose a love one. We also believe in another Life after Death, so we do not look at death or this life as the finality of it all!

Here is what you wrote on another thread. It sure sounds like glorifying death and violence.


"Are you sure about that? I don't know of any people/countries who just sat down peacefully, smiles on their faces accepting to be colonized/enslaved/occupied . That did not happen and i don't see that ever happening. History books describe in great details how those countries that you are talking about fought endlessly til one party gave up because they were not strong enough or there was outside pressure or maybe they found their morality somewhere along the way. I dont see how the Palestinians are justifying violence since they are the victims here. In any case, one thing is for sure, Palestinians will fight till Palestine is free, Palestinians do not give up . The route to justice and freedom is paved by bravery, the blood of the people who fight for those ideals, and their memories. Today, most things are manufactured in China but courage is still manufactured in Palestine, and one day Ghaza will be free~ "

You sound like a bunch of rednecks who want everyone out of "their" country who isn't just like them. That land doesn't belong to you any more than it does to the Israelis. Learn to live with others on this planet because that is the direction we are all going as a human race. There is no such thing as countries made up of only one ethnicity any more. Why should that piece of land be any different? I don't feel your pain about it belonging to you or your drama about how you will fight to the death for it. Not feeling it.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade".

I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.

Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change. They rejected it.

Not true. I don't think anyone embraces violence per se, they resort to it when everything else fails:

This is a quote from Mandela during the apartheid:

On his decision to take up arms against apartheid:

“I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” -- Statement at the opening of his defense in the Rivonia treason trial, April 20, 1964.

Another one:

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.

I think Mandela’s peace-loving qualities are oftentimes confused with him being a pacifist, which he certainly is not.Mandela did support violence where it had a clear practical purpose, and then favored property destruction over harm to people . And it is important to note that Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when then-President George W. Bush signed a bill removing Mandela from it.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

Let me get this straight. You are insulted that someone is trying to humanize Palestinians? You actually believe that it is a lie that Palestinians could be humanized. And, this is because you don't believe Palestinians to be human?

That's some twisted logic. You can do better than that Jeff.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course you do. You're permitted to monopolize a thread. Typical.

Monopolize a thread? More like preach from the DcUm pulpit. And preach propaganda at that!

This is so funny. I think Anonymous is the one monopolizing the thread and spreading their own version(s) of propaganda. At least Muslimina identifies her posts.

Signed

Anonymous (I might be one or I might be ten)

I don't think all her posts are identified. Based on the strong writing similarities in posts before she identified herself, you might conclude they belong to her. Also, when someone logs off, that's not to say they don't post anonymously.

It's not a bad thing, far from it.

Just because you think something doesn't make it true. I did not post anonymously since registering, and of course I posted "Anonymously" before registering and then did say in the middle of the discussion that I was going to register.

As I said, it's not a big deal nor would you be the first or last DCUMer to do so. No. Big. Deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

Let me get this straight. You are insulted that someone is trying to humanize Palestinians? You actually believe that it is a lie that Palestinians could be humanized. And, this is because you don't believe Palestinians to be human?

Don't you know that the Israelis and their supporters are the same side of the coin as Joeseph Goebbles and his propaganda. The way they feel about palestinians is the way the Nazi felt about Jews. The way Hitler and his supporters dehumanized the Jews is the way Israel and it's supporters dehumanize Palestinians. You would think they of all people would get this and have empathy.

That's old news. If anything the Palestinians and the Israelis are the opposite sides of the same coin, which is why the Palestinians' argument about how awful Israel is falls flat. They would do the same in a heartbeat. They openly say as much. Their only real issue seems to be that they are losing, which is pretty predictable considering how much stronger Israel is. Make some different choices, Palestinians. Don't fight fire with fire. History has shown you can make great changes without resorting to violence -- but if you choose the violent route, don't then sit back and talk about how terrible it is that your foe defeats you with violence.

You're like my kids who act like they didn't deserve their sibling to smack them back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

And this is a perfect example of the type of generalization that has reduced my empathy for Israel greatly. It's all of a piece - we must be told over and over again that Palestinians do not really value human life, so that we won't react with horror and outrage when Israel decides to kill so many of them. Either they had it coming to them or it's what they really wanted all along, right?

This attitude and the accompanying rhetoric literally sickens me, and it very much makes me believe that Israel in its current state is a major threat to humanity that requires systemic and fundamental change.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

That is just an Islamic term and really has been vilified by the West. We even call people who die in childbirth and car accidents martyrs. In Islam, we believe that certain types of deaths elevate the person to a certain level in the Hereafter, because of how painful or tragic the death is. The arabic term is "Shaheed". This has nothing to do with wanting to die, or suicide bombing, terrorism ect.

-The one who dies from a long disease is considered a martyr
-A pregnant woman who dies in pregnancy or while giving birth is considered a martyr
-Whoever is killed defending his property is a martyr.
-he who dies in defense of his own life is a martyr; he who dies in defense of his faith is a martyr; and he who dies in defense of his family is a martyr.
-The one who speaks to a tyrannical leader and commands and forbids him, then the latter kills him–he is a martyr
-Whoever is killed unjustly is considered a martyr.
ect....

E
So, whenever a Muslim dies in one of these ways, you will hear other Muslims call him/her "Martyr" and that is why you hear that in Palestine. Muslims believe that the highest and most honorable death is to die as a Martyr, that doesn't mean we walk around wanting to die or we want to die on a battlefield. To the contrary, like i said earlier even dying in a car accident is considered dying as a martyr. We just believe that the reward of the martyr is superior to any other in the after life, and we consider people who are killed in Palestine of having been killed unjustly, that is why you will hear people call them "Martyrs"

So basically you glorify death. That's why Hamas uses human beings as shields.

We do not glorify death, we mourn our dead the same way you do, we hurt and pain the same way any other human does when they lose a love one. We also believe in another Life after Death, so we do not look at death or this life as the finality of it all!

Here is what you wrote on another thread. It sure sounds like glorifying death and violence.


"Are you sure about that? I don't know of any people/countries who just sat down peacefully, smiles on their faces accepting to be colonized/enslaved/occupied . That did not happen and i don't see that ever happening. History books describe in great details how those countries that you are talking about fought endlessly til one party gave up because they were not strong enough or there was outside pressure or maybe they found their morality somewhere along the way. I dont see how the Palestinians are justifying violence since they are the victims here. In any case, one thing is for sure, Palestinians will fight till Palestine is free, Palestinians do not give up . The route to justice and freedom is paved by bravery, the blood of the people who fight for those ideals, and their memories. Today, most things are manufactured in China but courage is still manufactured in Palestine, and one day Ghaza will be free~ "

You sound like a bunch of rednecks who want everyone out of "their" country who isn't just like them. That land doesn't belong to you any more than it does to the Israelis. Learn to live with others on this planet because that is the direction we are all going as a human race. There is no such thing as countries made up of only one ethnicity any more. Why should that piece of land be any different? I don't feel your pain about it belonging to you or your drama about how you will fight to the death for it. Not feeling it.

And I will repeat it again.The road to justice and freedom is paved by bravery and the blood of the people who fight for the ideals of freedom and justice. There has not been throughout history any freedom or justice that came about without people dying for the sake of freedom. That is an historical truth. Now the rest of your comment is pretty pointless if it was aimed at me because I have been saying all along that I want to see a one nation of Israelis and Palestinians living together peacefully as it happened in Germany, South Africa and Northern Ireland. You don't need to feel my pain, that's not my purpose~

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

And this is a perfect example of the type of generalization that has reduced my empathy for Israel greatly. It's all of a piece - we must be told over and over again that Palestinians do not really value human life, so that we won't react with horror and outrage when Israel decides to kill so many of them. Either they had it coming to them or it's what they really wanted all along, right?

This attitude and the accompanying rhetoric literally sickens me, and it very much makes me believe that Israel in its current state is a major threat to humanity that requires systemic and fundamental change.

Systemic change. Like the final solution?

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade".

I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.

Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change. They rejected it.

Not true. I don't think anyone embraces violence per se, they resort to it when everything else fails:

This is a quote from Mandela during the apartheid:

On his decision to take up arms against apartheid:

“I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” -- Statement at the opening of his defense in the Rivonia treason trial, April 20, 1964.

Another one:

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.

I think Mandela’s peace-loving qualities are oftentimes confused with him being a pacifist, which he certainly is not.Mandela did support violence where it had a clear practical purpose, and then favored property destruction over harm to people . And it is important to note that Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when then-President George W. Bush signed a bill removing Mandela from it.

Way to go, Muslima. Try to make the change that these two men into a violent struggle to justify your own actions. It was not. They made historic changes without resorting to violence, certainly not on the scale you advocate for the Palestinians.

Change without violence is possible -- but you don't want that. You embrace it.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade".

I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.

Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change. They rejected it.

Not true. I don't think anyone embraces violence per se, they resort to it when everything else fails:

This is a quote from Mandela during the apartheid:

On his decision to take up arms against apartheid:

“I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” -- Statement at the opening of his defense in the Rivonia treason trial, April 20, 1964.

Another one:

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.

I think Mandela’s peace-loving qualities are oftentimes confused with him being a pacifist, which he certainly is not.Mandela did support violence where it had a clear practical purpose, and then favored property destruction over harm to people . And it is important to note that Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when then-President George W. Bush signed a bill removing Mandela from it.

Way to go, Muslima. Try to make the change that these two men into a violent struggle to justify your own actions. It was not. They made historic changes without resorting to violence, certainly not on the scale you advocate for the Palestinians.

Change without violence is possible -- but you don't want that. You embrace it.

I know you would love for me to embrace violence, I don't. You said Mandela's fight was nonviolent, and I just showed you that that wasn't true. So now, you don't have anything to add to the conversation? Yes, change without violence is possible if you're not oppressing a people and keeping them caged in an open air prison. Just like Mandela said "it was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” - Hamas was created 20 years after the state Israel was created. You don't oppress people and expect them to sit down around a fire at night and tell stories & dance!

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade".

I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.

Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change. They rejected it.

Where should I begin? First, the discussion is about sacrificing lives for a cause. Many people -- Americans included -- honor the practice of preferring death to life without liberty. New Hampshire's license plates actually say "Live Free or Die". Gandhi entered confrontations knowing that it might result his or other deaths. Mandela, despite your apparent lack of knowledge of the topic, also practiced armed struggle. He certainly was not imprisoned for leading a sit-in. He was the leader of the ANC's armed wing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

And this is a perfect example of the type of generalization that has reduced my empathy for Israel greatly. It's all of a piece - we must be told over and over again that Palestinians do not really value human life, so that we won't react with horror and outrage when Israel decides to kill so many of them. Either they had it coming to them or it's what they really wanted all along, right?

This attitude and the accompanying rhetoric literally sickens me, and it very much makes me believe that Israel in its current state is a major threat to humanity that requires systemic and fundamental change.

Uh, we are not Israelis. We are Americans, voicing our opinions.