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[quote=Muslima][quote=Anonymous][quote=Muslima][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict.  The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met. [/quote]

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.[/quote]

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade". 
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I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.[/quote]

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.
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[b]Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change[/b]. They rejected it.[/quote]

Not true. I don't think anyone embraces violence per se, they resort to it when everything else fails:

This is a quote from Mandela during the apartheid:

On his decision to take up arms against apartheid:

[quote]“I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” -- Statement at the opening of his defense in the Rivonia treason trial, April 20, 1964.[/quote]

Another one:

[quote]
“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.[/quote]

I think Mandela’s peace-loving qualities are oftentimes confused with him being a pacifist, which he certainly is not.Mandela did support violence where it had a clear practical purpose, and then favored property destruction over harm to people . And it is important to note that Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when then-President George W. Bush signed a bill removing Mandela from it.

[/quote]

Way to go, Muslima. Try to make the change that these two men into a violent struggle to justify your own actions. It was not. They made historic changes without resorting to violence, certainly not on the scale you advocate for the Palestinians.

Change without violence is possible -- but you don't want that. You embrace it. [/quote]

I know you would love for me to embrace violence, I don't. You said Mandela's fight was nonviolent, and I just showed you that that wasn't true. So now, you don't have anything to add to the conversation? Yes, change without violence is possible if you're not oppressing a people and keeping them caged in an open air prison. Just like Mandela said "it was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” - Hamas  was created 20 years after the state Israel was created. You don't oppress people and expect them to sit down around a fire at night and tell stories & dance![/quote]

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