Again, help me to understand why Blacks can't be anti gay marriage

[Anonymous]

Jews are such a small segment of the population their views either way doesn't shape the outcome of the election.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jews are such a small segment of the population their views either way doesn't shape the outcome of the election.

But I'm really glad that they are the most supportive religious group when it comes to gay rights. Someone has to prove that religion is not a barrier to gay marriage.

[Anonymous]

The issue is a sensitive one because it exposes a fault line in the coalition of identity politics groups that constitute much of the democratic base. Particularly in an election year where Obama needs heavy turnout from both african americans, who do tend to oppose gay marriage on average, and urban progressives, who not only strongly favor gay marriage, but think that it is an issue upon which reasonable people cannot disagree. This makes the issue a difficult one to paper over. Yes, much of the opposition to gay marriage comes from evangelicals and mormons, but no one on the left cares what they do because they are the enemy. It is the in-house nature of the dispute on gay marriage between groups that are supposed to be on the same team that causes all the angst.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with all of your post except the part in bold. Black people were not the deciding factor in the passage of Prop 8. In fact, if not a single black person had voted in the election, Prop 8 still would have passed.

I think what was really glossed over was that blacks make up only ~6% of California's population.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/12/01/081201taco_talk_hertzberg?printable=true#ixzz1uU12iBzv
http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/issues/egan_sherrill_prop8_1_6_09.pdf

I don't see how that makes the black vote any more or less right. Plus you are essentially making an argument that black voters don't matter because they aren't a big enough constituency, which is not a position that benefits the black community.

In fact every voter matters. Each of us shares responsibility for the outcome.

I think the PP was not saying that black voters are unimportant, but that their votes did not determine the outcome in California, and that it's silly to make a fuss about "the black vote" on gay marriage.

This is exactly my point. I don't think it's silly to care about the black vote on gay marriage, because it's important and I'm glad to see more blacks (just like more people of all races) are becoming more open minded with each year that passes.

What I find troubling is the hyperfocus on the black vote, and the obsession with holding up blacks as the most important reason gay marriage isn't legal. It's simply not true, and people are willing to ignore the truth or make up their own "truth" to reinforce this idea. This smacks of racism and wanting blacks to "know their place."

There are five or so threads in the last week about blacks neon enemy number one of gay marriage. No threads on any other racial or ethnic group who is against it. I just don't believe that it's not part of the centuries-long American obsession with painting everything blacks do as wrong.

There are zero responses to the thread about the progress beig made among religious black people in regards to gay marriage. There are tons of responses in this and other threads.

On black forums, this issue is bong debated, but it's bot being debated so simplistically because the posters recognize the issue is obviously larger than "black people hate gays, how dare we do so, we once weren't allowed to vote." The debate is actually about religion and human rights, which are the real issues.

Pleas excuse any typos, I'm on a phone.

[Anonymous]

No one should be against gay marriage.

[Anonymous]

13:48 - at least one of those threads was started by a right wing troll and everyone fell for it and started to fight about this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep, 00:22, that's totally it.

I'm not even going to get into why people who take their political influence from the likes of Cam'ron aren't likely to hold much clout in the elections...

I can see it now, are you going to Vote Obama, pause, no homo

The black community would of been ok with obama said I support gay marriage , no homo

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep, 00:22, that's totally it.

I'm not even going to get into why people who take their political influence from the likes of Cam'ron aren't likely to hold much clout in the elections...

I can see it now, are you going to Vote Obama, pause, no homo

The black community would of been ok with obama said I support gay marriage , no homo

Would of or would have?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with all of your post except the part in bold. Black people were not the deciding factor in the passage of Prop 8. In fact, if not a single black person had voted in the election, Prop 8 still would have passed.

I think what was really glossed over was that blacks make up only ~6% of California's population.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/12/01/081201taco_talk_hertzberg?printable=true#ixzz1uU12iBzv
http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/issues/egan_sherrill_prop8_1_6_09.pdf

I don't see how that makes the black vote any more or less right. Plus you are essentially making an argument that black voters don't matter because they aren't a big enough constituency, which is not a position that benefits the black community.

In fact every voter matters. Each of us shares responsibility for the outcome.

I think the PP was not saying that black voters are unimportant, but that their votes did not determine the outcome in California, and that it's silly to make a fuss about "the black vote" on gay marriage.

This is exactly my point. I don't think it's silly to care about the black vote on gay marriage, because it's important and I'm glad to see more blacks (just like more people of all races) are becoming more open minded with each year that passes.

What I find troubling is the hyperfocus on the black vote, and the obsession with holding up blacks as the most important reason gay marriage isn't legal. It's simply not true, and people are willing to ignore the truth or make up their own "truth" to reinforce this idea. This smacks of racism and wanting blacks to "know their place."

There are five or so threads in the last week about blacks neon enemy number one of gay marriage. No threads on any other racial or ethnic group who is against it. I just don't believe that it's not part of the centuries-long American obsession with painting everything blacks do as wrong.

There are zero responses to the thread about the progress beig made among religious black people in regards to gay marriage. There are tons of responses in this and other threads.

On black forums, this issue is bong debated, but it's bot being debated so simplistically because the posters recognize the issue is obviously larger than "black people hate gays, how dare we do so, we once weren't allowed to vote." The debate is actually about religion and human rights, which are the real issues.

Pleas excuse any typos, I'm on a phone.

You conveniently left out that they also debate aspects of AA culture -not just religion - as causes of the issue. There are issues of black masculinity that have a huge impact. And the hip hop culture as well which in part reflects that.

[Anonymous]

Conveniently, as if I did it purposely?

Hip hop culture isn't brought up very often in the discussions I witness, no. Perhaps it comes up on message boards that are geared towards hip hop fans. Those kinds of boards are also more populated by male posters, and males of every race are more likely to be against same-sex marriage than women.

Nearly everyone who is against it in the discussions I witness is against it for religious reasons. These people also tend to be against hip hop and rap music, too, even if it's hip hop with a religious message. They're extremely conservative.

Educational level, political affiliation, and religiosity have all been found to be reliable predictors of a person's opposition/support of same-sex marriage. While I'm not denying that there are issues of homophobia and masculinity among the culture, I'd be interested if you could provide credible information that shows that those the masculinity issue is as big of a predictor (or even nearly as big of a predictor) among the voting population.  It is a huge problem that needs to be addressed, but it is being addressed, just not by everyone. There are issues with sexism, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Conveniently, as if I did it purposely?

Hip hop culture isn't brought up very often in the discussions I witness, no. Perhaps it comes up on message boards that are geared towards hip hop fans. Those kinds of boards are also more populated by male posters, and males of every race are more likely to be against same-sex marriage than women.

Nearly everyone who is against it in the discussions I witness is against it for religious reasons. These people also tend to be against hip hop and rap music, too, even if it's hip hop with a religious message. They're extremely conservative.

Educational level, political affiliation, and religiosity have all been found to be reliable predictors of a person's opposition/support of same-sex marriage. While I'm not denying that there are issues of homophobia and masculinity among the culture, I'd be interested if you could provide credible information that shows that those the masculinity issue is as big of a predictor (or even nearly as big of a predictor) among the voting population.  It is a huge problem that needs to be addressed, but it is being addressed, just not by everyone. There are issues with sexism, too.

Hip hop culture is just one of the manifestations. I brought it up because it is something that people recognize outside of the black community. I didn't say *JUST* hip hop culture.

I would say that your message boards are probably mostly straight people of higher SES. They don't understand the experience of black gay males in poorer neighborhoods. I already posted several books/authors on the subject of black homophobia, and I'm sure they got ignored, so until I hear someone say they checked any of it out I'll pass on more proof.

[Anonymous]

I think it's deep-seated anguish over the number of gay black men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Conveniently, as if I did it purposely?

Hip hop culture isn't brought up very often in the discussions I witness, no. Perhaps it comes up on message boards that are geared towards hip hop fans. Those kinds of boards are also more populated by male posters, and males of every race are more likely to be against same-sex marriage than women.

Nearly everyone who is against it in the discussions I witness is against it for religious reasons. These people also tend to be against hip hop and rap music, too, even if it's hip hop with a religious message. They're extremely conservative.

Educational level, political affiliation, and religiosity have all been found to be reliable predictors of a person's opposition/support of same-sex marriage. While I'm not denying that there are issues of homophobia and masculinity among the culture, I'd be interested if you could provide credible information that shows that those the masculinity issue is as big of a predictor (or even nearly as big of a predictor) among the voting population.  It is a huge problem that needs to be addressed, but it is being addressed, just not by everyone. There are issues with sexism, too.

Hip hop culture is just one of the manifestations. I brought it up because it is something that people recognize outside of the black community. I didn't say *JUST* hip hop culture.

I would say that your message boards are probably mostly straight people of higher SES. They don't understand the experience of black gay males in poorer neighborhoods. I already posted several books/authors on the subject of black homophobia, and I'm sure they got ignored, so until I hear someone say they checked any of it out I'll pass on more proof.

I'm the PP you quoted- to clarify, most of the women on the message boards I frequent are pro gay marriage. It's just that those who are against it are super conservative Christians. Homophobia (including homophobia related to the whole masculinity issue) within the community is discussed, but it's usually in threads unrelated to SSM because the SSM threads are dominated by the religious debate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Conveniently, as if I did it purposely?

Hip hop culture isn't brought up very often in the discussions I witness, no. Perhaps it comes up on message boards that are geared towards hip hop fans. Those kinds of boards are also more populated by male posters, and males of every race are more likely to be against same-sex marriage than women.

Nearly everyone who is against it in the discussions I witness is against it for religious reasons. These people also tend to be against hip hop and rap music, too, even if it's hip hop with a religious message. They're extremely conservative.

Educational level, political affiliation, and religiosity have all been found to be reliable predictors of a person's opposition/support of same-sex marriage. While I'm not denying that there are issues of homophobia and masculinity among the culture, I'd be interested if you could provide credible information that shows that those the masculinity issue is as big of a predictor (or even nearly as big of a predictor) among the voting population.  It is a huge problem that needs to be addressed, but it is being addressed, just not by everyone. There are issues with sexism, too.

Hip hop culture is just one of the manifestations. I brought it up because it is something that people recognize outside of the black community. I didn't say *JUST* hip hop culture.

I would say that your message boards are probably mostly straight people of higher SES. They don't understand the experience of black gay males in poorer neighborhoods. I already posted several books/authors on the subject of black homophobia, and I'm sure they got ignored, so until I hear someone say they checked any of it out I'll pass on more proof.

Sorry I just realized there are two different threads on the same topic, and I posted to one of the other ones. Here:

You can google black gay support groups and see for yourself. Or read "The Greatest Taboo: Homosexuality in Black Communities" by Delroy Constantine-Simms and Skip Gates, where a few essays in particular will go a long way in this discussion. Or read something by bell hooks (sic) or Eric Brandt. If you want to understand how homophobia in hip hop is related to culture and economics watch the documentary by Byron Hurt http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/hiphop/film.htm Hip hop does reflect some aspects of the general culture. At its root is the dilemma that many black males face of finding a way to prove your masculinity in a society where economic opportunity is lacking. Unfortunately rejection of homosexuality is a side effect of this. Now obviously this is not the experience of every black person in America, but it's a factor for many. Here is a short video, also by Byron Hurt, which discusses black masculinity in this regard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOQZqCGHctE Or if you really want to do some reading, here is a bibliography on black masculinity including the historical and economic challenges to black male identity: http://www.library.illinois.edu/afx/Masculinity.htm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Conveniently, as if I did it purposely?

Hip hop culture isn't brought up very often in the discussions I witness, no. Perhaps it comes up on message boards that are geared towards hip hop fans. Those kinds of boards are also more populated by male posters, and males of every race are more likely to be against same-sex marriage than women.

Nearly everyone who is against it in the discussions I witness is against it for religious reasons. These people also tend to be against hip hop and rap music, too, even if it's hip hop with a religious message. They're extremely conservative.

Educational level, political affiliation, and religiosity have all been found to be reliable predictors of a person's opposition/support of same-sex marriage. While I'm not denying that there are issues of homophobia and masculinity among the culture, I'd be interested if you could provide credible information that shows that those the masculinity issue is as big of a predictor (or even nearly as big of a predictor) among the voting population.  It is a huge problem that needs to be addressed, but it is being addressed, just not by everyone. There are issues with sexism, too.

Hip hop culture is just one of the manifestations. I brought it up because it is something that people recognize outside of the black community. I didn't say *JUST* hip hop culture.

I would say that your message boards are probably mostly straight people of higher SES. They don't understand the experience of black gay males in poorer neighborhoods. I already posted several books/authors on the subject of black homophobia, and I'm sure they got ignored, so until I hear someone say they checked any of it out I'll pass on more proof.

I'm the PP you quoted- to clarify, most of the women on the message boards I frequent are pro gay marriage. It's just that those who are against it are super conservative Christians. Homophobia (including homophobia related to the whole masculinity issue) within the community is discussed, but it's usually in threads unrelated to SSM because the SSM threads are dominated by the religious debate.

Well that is interesting because in a regression analysis I read religion was a more important factor for women. Black male attitudes may be much less shaped by religion and more by cultural attitudes toward black masculinity.