The T-20 obsession comes down to class, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My nephew had a 1500 (or higher) on the SAT, incredible grades in STEM classes, and he's an Eagle Scout. He lives in Arizona. He went to Arizona because he got a full-scholarship. One parent works for a non-profit and the other is a government scientist. He also loves to mountain bike. He has no connection to the Northeast or Northern California. Arizona made the most sense.

There are lots of students like my nephew who have the stats to enroll in the T-20, but don't, for a variety of financial and personal reasons. Many of my colleagues started at state flagships, graduated from top law schools, and won federal clerkships. None of them grew up in wealthy households. Solid middle class. It doesn't seem that not going to a T-20 for undergrad forecloses opportunities later.

Is this T-20 obsession a 1 percenter thing? Is it about impressing the law firm partners? Or the ladies at the country club? Or is it about replenishing those who think of themselves as elites?

I just started reading this board, and the sturm and drang over admission to this small set of schools is BANANAS.

Those of us with multiple kids who have seen what the public flagship undergrad experience is versus T10/ivy understand fully the reasons people chase the latter, for the right kid where that environment would not be too much. It is not about money it is about the opportunities.

For us it was not chasing t25 but chasing the right fit/size. My kid is at a t40 (used to be t30 for decades until class sizes no longer matter). My kid knew they would thrive more with 5-8k undergrads not 15k+

And it worked. They were WL/spring start at 3 t30. They excelled at the t40, have a 3.9+ gpa in chem Eng, 2 years of research and in at a top3 for chem Eng/ai for grad school. At admitted students day (for the specific program) there were two other students from their school/major. So they will do grad school at one of the top places, and their undergrad college obviously prepares students well.
Win win for them.

My kid got way more opportunities at this school with only 6k undergrads than they would at a larger school. It's easier to know profs, do meaningful research and advance. Easier to learn more in classes with 40 students versus 300.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it is all about social mobility.

But the parents on this board who are freaking out the most send their kids to private schools. Seems like they don't need to move up because they are already there.

Exactly! And for them they have the connections even if they attend state u honors program. Most of the kids at t25 schools already have connections.

It all does down to class. Getting your kid into a T-20 ensures that the kids will have membership in the wealthy, super-highly educated group that the parents are part of.

The T-20 schools are a market disguised as a meritocracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My nephew had a 1500 (or higher) on the SAT, incredible grades in STEM classes, and he's an Eagle Scout. He lives in Arizona. He went to Arizona because he got a full-scholarship. One parent works for a non-profit and the other is a government scientist. He also loves to mountain bike. He has no connection to the Northeast or Northern California. Arizona made the most sense.

There are lots of students like my nephew who have the stats to enroll in the T-20, but don't, for a variety of financial and personal reasons. Many of my colleagues started at state flagships, graduated from top law schools, and won federal clerkships. None of them grew up in wealthy households. Solid middle class. It doesn't seem that not going to a T-20 for undergrad forecloses opportunities later.

Is this T-20 obsession a 1 percenter thing? Is it about impressing the law firm partners? Or the ladies at the country club? Or is it about replenishing those who think of themselves as elites?

I just started reading this board, and the sturm and drang over admission to this small set of schools is BANANAS.

You're just realizing this?

The poster did not suggest they are just realizing this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the immigrant parent obsession.

If you're at a top private high school, many parents are completely relaxed about sending their kid to place like Colby or Boston College. I know DCUM think they're all nuts but our experience with 3 kids has been the opposite. Parents are very nonchalant about where their kids land. Often the Ivy gunners are, yes, the immigrant famlies in the bunch.

Meanwhile, on Reddit so many freshmen are trying to transfer up from Emory or Rice or Vanderbilt, etc. "My parents are still so embarrassed that I'm not at an Ivy."

The problem is this doesn't play out in the real world. Go look at Big3 matriculations or top NYC private schools...tons of Ivy and other top 20 admits. Something like 50% of Sidwell's 2025 class attends a top 20 school.

Most of these kids are Americans.

For those families and kids it isn't an obsession, it is an expectation. The expectation is a very good school and many of them will end up at places like Bucknell, HC, Boston College if they cannot make it into a T10 university of SLAC.

Yeah, I don't really understand the difference here...it's expected and they take classes and ECs all along the way in order to meet those expectations. Again, I was being literal in that 50% of Sidwell is at a top 20 school. No Bucknell, HC or BC in that 50%...because they aren't top 20.

Does include Pomona, Swarthmore and the top rated LACs in the top 20.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My nephew had a 1500 (or higher) on the SAT, incredible grades in STEM classes, and he's an Eagle Scout. He lives in Arizona. He went to Arizona because he got a full-scholarship. One parent works for a non-profit and the other is a government scientist. He also loves to mountain bike. He has no connection to the Northeast or Northern California. Arizona made the most sense.

There are lots of students like my nephew who have the stats to enroll in the T-20, but don't, for a variety of financial and personal reasons. Many of my colleagues started at state flagships, graduated from top law schools, and won federal clerkships. None of them grew up in wealthy households. Solid middle class. It doesn't seem that not going to a T-20 for undergrad forecloses opportunities later.

Is this T-20 obsession a 1 percenter thing? Is it about impressing the law firm partners? Or the ladies at the country club? Or is it about replenishing those who think of themselves as elites?

I just started reading this board, and the sturm and drang over admission to this small set of schools is BANANAS.

Those of us with multiple kids who have seen what the public flagship undergrad experience is versus T10/ivy understand fully the reasons people chase the latter, for the right kid where that environment would not be too much. It is not about money it is about the opportunities.

For us it was not chasing t25 but chasing the right fit/size. My kid is at a t40 (used to be t30 for decades until class sizes no longer matter). My kid knew they would thrive more with 5-8k undergrads not 15k+

And it worked. They were WL/spring start at 3 t30. They excelled at the t40, have a 3.9+ gpa in chem Eng, 2 years of research and in at a top3 for chem Eng/ai for grad school. At admitted students day (for the specific program) there were two other students from their school/major. So they will do grad school at one of the top places, and their undergrad college obviously prepares students well.
Win win for them.

My kid got way more opportunities at this school with only 6k undergrads than they would at a larger school. It's easier to know profs, do meaningful research and advance. Easier to learn more in classes with 40 students versus 300.

That's nice, except you have no way of knowing whether he could have accomplished all these things at the larger school. You can't compare something you know to something you don't and conclude which is better. You can only compare things you know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To me this seems primarily an East Coast obsession.

If you have spent time in the bay area immigrant community you wouldn't say that. Among the non-immigrant upper class private school crowd on the West Coast things seem to be a bit more chill. Very good schools or better are expected but the T20 obsession definitely isn't as strong.

Most of the west coast is less obsessed with this as well. Moves from east coast to PNW when one kid was in hs other was ms. The differences in students and parents was immediately apparent, even tho if h we lived in similarly "rich" areas. It's just so much more laid back out west. Yes kids apply to many schools but a lot are happy to attend our state flagship for low prices that is top 50 ranked

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sigh. I know I should just go outside and pull some weeds or do something else more useful than participate in yet another pissing match on this board, but I'll bite.

Hard working immigrants and other disadvantaged folks can actually benefit more from a top 20 than others because going to one of them moves them up from first base to third, where most of the others who attend those schools started on third base in the first place. Study after study confirms this.

But if you're ALREADY on third base, as most DCUM families and private school families are, then no it doesn't matter in the slightest.

It would depend on what the kid wants to do. Even for those born on third base, going to a T20 matters if they want to go into finance, consulting or increasingly tech. And that typically is where a majority of graduates end up from the top 20 schools. That degree opens doors on Wall Street, FAANG and so on that are largely closed to everyone else.

Also, as others have noted, the top 20 universities are often the most affordable option for bright and accomplished MC and UMC students. The cost is often substantially lower than going to the state flagship. Add in the peer group and generally a great education and you can see why so many want to attend.

[Anonymous]

You're setting up a strawman with 'foreclose.' For STEM careers, where you did your undergrad does matter. Georgia Tech, UT Cockrell, Caltech, Rice, MIT aren't just names on the back of your SUV. The research pipelines, faculty connections, peer networks, and venture capital ecosystems (looking at you, Stanford and MIT) shape outcomes in concrete ways, especially for students headed toward PhD programs, elite research positions, or startups.
The law school analogy isn't quite right. A strong LSAT and GPA can get you from Arizona into a T-14, and from there the law school prestige and targeted recruiting does the heavy lifting for clerkships, the academy, big law. PhD admissions, research opportunities, faculty recommendations, the institutional reputation (prestige) runs through all of it in STEM in ways the law school pipeline simply doesn't.

[Anonymous]

I'm a child of immigrants and I don't think the obsession with prestige is due only to immigrants, although I will admit that my immigrant in-laws are obsessed with ivy league colleges and don't understand that it's a sports conference.

I think a fair number of us on this board went to top schools and are successful, and are surrounded by people who went to top schools and were successful, so we want the same for our kids, but getting into the same schools has gotten way harder.

Also, with the cost of college tuition, more parents are concerned about post-college opportunities and want their kids go to schools and programs that are well known to employers or that will provide networks that will allow our kids to find employment that will put them on a good path.

Finally, we live in a well-off suburb where there are a lot of high-achieving kids who do go to top schools. Why would I want my kid, who is going to graduate at the very top of their class, go to our state flagship (not ranked as high as UVA) when they can get into a highly selective T20 school?

[Anonymous]

What are T20s? US news?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sigh. I know I should just go outside and pull some weeds or do something else more useful than participate in yet another pissing match on this board, but I'll bite.

Hard working immigrants and other disadvantaged folks can actually benefit more from a top 20 than others because going to one of them moves them up from first base to third, where most of the others who attend those schools started on third base in the first place. Study after study confirms this.

But if you're ALREADY on third base, as most DCUM families and private school families are, then no it doesn't matter in the slightest.

It would depend on what the kid wants to do. Even for those born on third base, going to a T20 matters if they want to go into finance, consulting or increasingly tech. And that typically is where a majority of graduates end up from the top 20 schools. That degree opens doors on Wall Street, FAANG and so on that are largely closed to everyone else.

Also, as others have noted, the top 20 universities are often the most affordable option for bright and accomplished MC and UMC students. The cost is often substantially lower than going to the state flagship. Add in the peer group and generally a great education and you can see why so many want to attend.

That is not my experience. I went to my state flagship because I had a full ride. The flagship in the neighboring state gave me a partial scholarship. Plenty of kids from my kid's high school get scholarships to in-state universities. If a kid has the qualifications to be admitted to a T-20, with financial aid, there is no way that kid is not going to get a substantial (or full) scholarship from their own state university.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sigh. I know I should just go outside and pull some weeds or do something else more useful than participate in yet another pissing match on this board, but I'll bite.

Hard working immigrants and other disadvantaged folks can actually benefit more from a top 20 than others because going to one of them moves them up from first base to third, where most of the others who attend those schools started on third base in the first place. Study after study confirms this.

But if you're ALREADY on third base, as most DCUM families and private school families are, then no it doesn't matter in the slightest.

It would depend on what the kid wants to do. Even for those born on third base, going to a T20 matters if they want to go into finance, consulting or increasingly tech. And that typically is where a majority of graduates end up from the top 20 schools. That degree opens doors on Wall Street, FAANG and so on that are largely closed to everyone else.

Also, as others have noted, the top 20 universities are often the most affordable option for bright and accomplished MC and UMC students. The cost is often substantially lower than going to the state flagship. Add in the peer group and generally a great education and you can see why so many want to attend.

Yeah, fine, I guess. But I can't imagine raising a kid who wants to "go into finance, consulting or increasingly tech." Kids who want to do that are all about making money. If I had a 16-year-old who thought that was I'd be really disappointed. So, ok, you can have the top 20 if that's what they're about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You're setting up a strawman with 'foreclose.' For STEM careers, where you did your undergrad does matter. Georgia Tech, UT Cockrell, Caltech, Rice, MIT aren't just names on the back of your SUV. The research pipelines, faculty connections, peer networks, and venture capital ecosystems (looking at you, Stanford and MIT) shape outcomes in concrete ways, especially for students headed toward PhD programs, elite research positions, or startups.
The law school analogy isn't quite right. A strong LSAT and GPA can get you from Arizona into a T-14, and from there the law school prestige and targeted recruiting does the heavy lifting for clerkships, the academy, big law. PhD admissions, research opportunities, faculty recommendations, the institutional reputation (prestige) runs through all of it in STEM in ways the law school pipeline simply doesn't.

Strive much?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a child of immigrants and I don't think the obsession with prestige is due only to immigrants, although I will admit that my immigrant in-laws are obsessed with ivy league colleges and don't understand that it's a sports conference.

I think a fair number of us on this board went to top schools and are successful, and are surrounded by people who went to top schools and were successful, so we want the same for our kids, but getting into the same schools has gotten way harder.

Also, with the cost of college tuition, more parents are concerned about post-college opportunities and want their kids go to schools and programs that are well known to employers or that will provide networks that will allow our kids to find employment that will put them on a good path.

Finally, we live in a well-off suburb where there are a lot of high-achieving kids who do go to top schools. Why would I want my kid, who is going to graduate at the very top of their class, go to our state flagship (not ranked as high as UVA) when they can get into a highly selective T20 school?

Because your kid could get a quality education for less money.

You answered OP's question. It's about class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You're setting up a strawman with 'foreclose.' For STEM careers, where you did your undergrad does matter. Georgia Tech, UT Cockrell, Caltech, Rice, MIT aren't just names on the back of your SUV. The research pipelines, faculty connections, peer networks, and venture capital ecosystems (looking at you, Stanford and MIT) shape outcomes in concrete ways, especially for students headed toward PhD programs, elite research positions, or startups.
The law school analogy isn't quite right. A strong LSAT and GPA can get you from Arizona into a T-14, and from there the law school prestige and targeted recruiting does the heavy lifting for clerkships, the academy, big law. PhD admissions, research opportunities, faculty recommendations, the institutional reputation (prestige) runs through all of it in STEM in ways the law school pipeline simply doesn't.

You are correct...but there has to be a reason when you see the undergrads at say Yale or Harvard law school, you may only see 2-3 kids who attended Arizona, but you will see literally hundreds that attended an Ivy or other Top 20 undergrad. Both Yale and Harvard law schools alone will have like 100+ kids who attended Yale undergrad and a 100+ kids who attended Harvard undergrad.

Perhaps it's because Arizona undergrads for the most part just want to practice law in Phoenix or Tucson...I don't know. I would imagine the University of Arizona law school has 100+ kids who went to University of Arizona undergrad.