The T-20 obsession comes down to class, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the immigrant parent obsession.

If you're at a top private high school, many parents are completely relaxed about sending their kid to place like Colby or Boston College. I know DCUM think they're all nuts but our experience with 3 kids has been the opposite. Parents are very nonchalant about where their kids land. Often the Ivy gunners are, yes, the immigrant famlies in the bunch.

Meanwhile, on Reddit so many freshmen are trying to transfer up from Emory or Rice or Vanderbilt, etc. "My parents are still so embarrassed that I'm not at an Ivy."

What does that even mean in the context of USA, which is an immigration country? Are you saying you are a Native American Indian?

lol the descendants of thieves trying to project the ownership of the land they stole. Obnoxious is the nicest word I can come up with for those thieves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My nephew had a 1500 (or higher) on the SAT, incredible grades in STEM classes, and he's an Eagle Scout. He lives in Arizona. He went to Arizona because he got a full-scholarship. One parent works for a non-profit and the other is a government scientist. He also loves to mountain bike. He has no connection to the Northeast or Northern California. Arizona made the most sense.

There are lots of students like my nephew who have the stats to enroll in the T-20, but don't, for a variety of financial and personal reasons. Many of my colleagues started at state flagships, graduated from top law schools, and won federal clerkships. None of them grew up in wealthy households. Solid middle class. It doesn't seem that not going to a T-20 for undergrad forecloses opportunities later.

Is this T-20 obsession a 1 percenter thing? Is it about impressing the law firm partners? Or the ladies at the country club? Or is it about replenishing those who think of themselves as elites?

I just started reading this board, and the sturm and drang over admission to this small set of schools is BANANAS.

Yes it's an obsession for top 1-5%.

Most smart kids (outside of really rich areas) apply to their state universities and get good merit awards and attend those!
Even if they apply to a top 25, they proceed with financial smarts and take the full ride (as they should!)

Imo, unless you have already saved (or can easily cash flow) and have also NoT neglected retirement saving to get there, you should attend somewhere that means minimal debt.

Smart kids will do well no matter where they go. It's what they do at college that matters more

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not really because the top schools give a ton of fincancial aid. Most of them are need-based and some give automatic full tuition to families that make 200K or less.

Also, 1500 and great grades in STEM is not enough for top 20. Especially not for a STEM major in top 20. You have to have great grades in everything plus have activities where you have made a real impact. 20-30 you can have great grades in everything and just have more regular activities. And so on. Top 20 has an overwhelming number of high stats students and can choose among them.

But her nephew will excel no matter where he goes. Much better to come out debt free (a student can earn their room and board themselves by summer job along with breaks and a 10 hour/week job while in college). Most who have that extensive "resumes have it because of wealth--the ability to not need to have a job in ha, or need to help the family out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it is all about social mobility.

But the parents on this board who are freaking out the most send their kids to private schools. Seems like they don't need to move up because they are already there.

Exactly! And for them they have the connections even if they attend state u honors program. Most of the kids at t25 schools already have connections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My nephew had a 1500 (or higher) on the SAT, incredible grades in STEM classes, and he's an Eagle Scout. He lives in Arizona. He went to Arizona because he got a full-scholarship. One parent works for a non-profit and the other is a government scientist. He also loves to mountain bike. He has no connection to the Northeast or Northern California. Arizona made the most sense.

There are lots of students like my nephew who have the stats to enroll in the T-20, but don't, for a variety of financial and personal reasons. Many of my colleagues started at state flagships, graduated from top law schools, and won federal clerkships. None of them grew up in wealthy households. Solid middle class. It doesn't seem that not going to a T-20 for undergrad forecloses opportunities later.

Is this T-20 obsession a 1 percenter thing? Is it about impressing the law firm partners? Or the ladies at the country club? Or is it about replenishing those who think of themselves as elites?

I just started reading this board, and the sturm and drang over admission to this small set of schools is BANANAS.

Physical location plays a much greater part of college decisions than anyone wants to admit. To this day, 86% of college students attend a college within 500 miles of home.

If Harvard picked up and moved to Phoenix...guess what, a ton of Arizona kids would be going nuts trying to get into Harvard. As it is, as much as they may want Harvard, it's 3,000 miles away and

Why yes because even if you get great financial aid, a family will need to spend $3-5k on transportation during the year and that might include kid not coming home for fall break or thanksgiving. Much easier to manage from cost perspective when you are a 4-8 hour drivejust not in the conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To me this seems primarily an East Coast obsession.

+a million

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To me this seems primarily an East Coast obsession.

If you have spent time in the bay area immigrant community you wouldn't say that. Among the non-immigrant upper class private school crowd on the West Coast things seem to be a bit more chill. Very good schools or better are expected but the T20 obsession definitely isn't as strong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My nephew had a 1500 (or higher) on the SAT, incredible grades in STEM classes, and he's an Eagle Scout. He lives in Arizona. He went to Arizona because he got a full-scholarship. One parent works for a non-profit and the other is a government scientist. He also loves to mountain bike. He has no connection to the Northeast or Northern California. Arizona made the most sense.

There are lots of students like my nephew who have the stats to enroll in the T-20, but don't, for a variety of financial and personal reasons. Many of my colleagues started at state flagships, graduated from top law schools, and won federal clerkships. None of them grew up in wealthy households. Solid middle class. It doesn't seem that not going to a T-20 for undergrad forecloses opportunities later.

Is this T-20 obsession a 1 percenter thing? Is it about impressing the law firm partners? Or the ladies at the country club? Or is it about replenishing those who think of themselves as elites?

I just started reading this board, and the sturm and drang over admission to this small set of schools is BANANAS.

There are 4000 colleges in the US alone, so I suspect the obsession with high rankings is just a lazy way to filter down the number to a more manageable amount to prioritize. Rankings are also an incorrect proxy for quality or outcomes.

Finally, there is no agreed-upon "T20". I believe that if you asked everyone what schools they mean, they are usually talking about 45 or so schools that they think have "T20" quality, regardless of the latest ranking or which ranking they consult. And some include LACs and some don't. Keep in mind the USNWR has been changing criteria based on what they care about, not what students and parents prioritize. They don't give extra points for a great location, or close proximity to a convenient city that college students enjoy being in or that enriches their learning. USNWR does not give any points whatsoever for reducing class size. They used to and so many studies suggest having classes closer to 16 students is ideal learning format. When they eliminated class size from criteria, big state colleges like the UCs (which sometimes have lectures of 500+ or even 1000+) started to rise. But my kids weren't interested in learning in monster-size lectures. They were ok with 1-3 intro classes of roughly 100-ish students, but much preferred schools with average class sizes of 20.

Everyone is different. Fit > generic and sometimes nonsensical rankings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My nephew had a 1500 (or higher) on the SAT, incredible grades in STEM classes, and he's an Eagle Scout. He lives in Arizona. He went to Arizona because he got a full-scholarship. One parent works for a non-profit and the other is a government scientist. He also loves to mountain bike. He has no connection to the Northeast or Northern California. Arizona made the most sense.

There are lots of students like my nephew who have the stats to enroll in the T-20, but don't, for a variety of financial and personal reasons. Many of my colleagues started at state flagships, graduated from top law schools, and won federal clerkships. None of them grew up in wealthy households. Solid middle class. It doesn't seem that not going to a T-20 for undergrad forecloses opportunities later.

Is this T-20 obsession a 1 percenter thing? Is it about impressing the law firm partners? Or the ladies at the country club? Or is it about replenishing those who think of themselves as elites?

I just started reading this board, and the sturm and drang over admission to this small set of schools is BANANAS.

Reposting because my comment got merged into the quote and was hard to read ...

There are 4000 colleges in the US alone, so I suspect the obsession with high rankings is just a lazy way to filter down the number to a more manageable amount to prioritize. Rankings are also an incorrect proxy for quality or outcomes.

Finally, there is no agreed-upon "T20". I believe that if you asked everyone what schools they mean, they are usually talking about 45 or so schools that they think have "T20" quality, regardless of the latest ranking or which ranking they consult. And some include LACs and some don't. Keep in mind the USNWR has been changing criteria based on what they care about, not what students and parents prioritize. They don't give extra points for a great location, or close proximity to a convenient city that college students enjoy being in or that enriches their learning. USNWR does not give any points whatsoever for reducing class size. They used to and so many studies suggest having classes closer to 16 students is ideal learning format. When they eliminated class size from criteria, big state colleges like the UCs (which sometimes have lectures of 500+ or even 1000+) started to rise. But my kids weren't interested in learning in monster-size lectures. They were ok with 1-3 intro classes of roughly 100-ish students, but much preferred schools with average class sizes of 20.

Everyone is different. Fit > generic and sometimes nonsensical rankings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the immigrant parent obsession.

If you're at a top private high school, many parents are completely relaxed about sending their kid to place like Colby or Boston College. I know DCUM think they're all nuts but our experience with 3 kids has been the opposite. Parents are very nonchalant about where their kids land. Often the Ivy gunners are, yes, the immigrant famlies in the bunch.

Meanwhile, on Reddit so many freshmen are trying to transfer up from Emory or Rice or Vanderbilt, etc. "My parents are still so embarrassed that I'm not at an Ivy."

What does that even mean in the context of USA, which is an immigration country? Are you saying you are a Native American Indian?

lol the descendants of thieves trying to project the ownership of the land they stole. Obnoxious is the nicest word I can come up with for those thieves.

Stupid is the most accurate word that I can come up with for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the immigrant parent obsession.

If you're at a top private high school, many parents are completely relaxed about sending their kid to place like Colby or Boston College. I know DCUM think they're all nuts but our experience with 3 kids has been the opposite. Parents are very nonchalant about where their kids land. Often the Ivy gunners are, yes, the immigrant famlies in the bunch.

Meanwhile, on Reddit so many freshmen are trying to transfer up from Emory or Rice or Vanderbilt, etc. "My parents are still so embarrassed that I'm not at an Ivy."

The problem is this doesn't play out in the real world. Go look at Big3 matriculations or top NYC private schools...tons of Ivy and other top 20 admits. Something like 50% of Sidwell's 2025 class attends a top 20 school.

Most of these kids are Americans.

Thanks for this response. Following this forum too closely and you may come to believe it is all the fault of immigrants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To me this seems primarily an East Coast obsession.

If you have spent time in the bay area immigrant community you wouldn't say that. Among the non-immigrant upper class private school crowd on the West Coast things seem to be a bit more chill. Very good schools or better are expected but the T20 obsession definitely isn't as strong.

My experience is that once it is basically accepted the kid has no shot at an Ivy+ or U Chicago or JHU, then the T20 obsession fades.

Maybe parents a bit more chill in accepting that it just isn't going to happen, so now let's focus on Tulane or Wake or whatever (they still tend to heavily skew towards private colleges).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the immigrant parent obsession.

If you're at a top private high school, many parents are completely relaxed about sending their kid to place like Colby or Boston College. I know DCUM think they're all nuts but our experience with 3 kids has been the opposite. Parents are very nonchalant about where their kids land. Often the Ivy gunners are, yes, the immigrant famlies in the bunch.

Meanwhile, on Reddit so many freshmen are trying to transfer up from Emory or Rice or Vanderbilt, etc. "My parents are still so embarrassed that I'm not at an Ivy."

The problem is this doesn't play out in the real world. Go look at Big3 matriculations or top NYC private schools...tons of Ivy and other top 20 admits. Something like 50% of Sidwell's 2025 class attends a top 20 school.

Most of these kids are Americans.

For those families and kids it isn't an obsession, it is an expectation. The expectation is a very good school and many of them will end up at places like Bucknell, HC, Boston College if they cannot make it into a T10 university of SLAC.

[Anonymous]

It's also about anxiety about downward mobility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My nephew had a 1500 (or higher) on the SAT, incredible grades in STEM classes, and he's an Eagle Scout. He lives in Arizona. He went to Arizona because he got a full-scholarship. One parent works for a non-profit and the other is a government scientist. He also loves to mountain bike. He has no connection to the Northeast or Northern California. Arizona made the most sense.

There are lots of students like my nephew who have the stats to enroll in the T-20, but don't, for a variety of financial and personal reasons. Many of my colleagues started at state flagships, graduated from top law schools, and won federal clerkships. None of them grew up in wealthy households. Solid middle class. It doesn't seem that not going to a T-20 for undergrad forecloses opportunities later.

Is this T-20 obsession a 1 percenter thing? Is it about impressing the law firm partners? Or the ladies at the country club? Or is it about replenishing those who think of themselves as elites?

I just started reading this board, and the sturm and drang over admission to this small set of schools is BANANAS.

Reposting because my comment got merged into the quote and was hard to read ...

There are 4000 colleges in the US alone, so I suspect the obsession with high rankings is just a lazy way to filter down the number to a more manageable amount to prioritize. Rankings are also an incorrect proxy for quality or outcomes.

Finally, there is no agreed-upon "T20". I believe that if you asked everyone what schools they mean, they are usually talking about 45 or so schools that they think have "T20" quality, regardless of the latest ranking or which ranking they consult. And some include LACs and some don't. Keep in mind the USNWR has been changing criteria based on what they care about, not what students and parents prioritize. They don't give extra points for a great location, or close proximity to a convenient city that college students enjoy being in or that enriches their learning. USNWR does not give any points whatsoever for reducing class size. They used to and so many studies suggest having classes closer to 16 students is ideal learning format. When they eliminated class size from criteria, big state colleges like the UCs (which sometimes have lectures of 500+ or even 1000+) started to rise. But my kids weren't interested in learning in monster-size lectures. They were ok with 1-3 intro classes of roughly 100-ish students, but much preferred schools with average class sizes of 20.

Everyone is different. Fit > generic and sometimes nonsensical rankings.

Every ranking has a "methodology" that you can read so, no, they are not nonsensical.