The Research on Various Childcare Options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In many parts of Asia, grandparents do the bulk of daytime childcare, so both parents are free to work at demanding jobs. And with loose employment regulations, boy, are those jobs rough.

Don’t the grandparents have jobs? If they’re old enough to be fully retired, I would think they’d be too old to be fully Abe to run around with a young child all day in the way a child needs.

Seems cheap and a way to take advantage of the elderly when they should be relaxing after decades of hard work

I'm the PP who posted about grandparents doing childcare in Asia. The retirement age in China is between 50 and 60, so it wouldn't be too old to run around with a child, especially if there are 2 grandparents babysitting at the same time. It's also a different culture, so family members there are expected to make huge uncompensated sacrifices for each other, for better or for worse.

Chinese person here - this may sound great but I have friends whose parents flew over from China to take care of their baby for months to a year. It may sound great but can also be a headache given the cultural/parenting style differences. I've heard stories of grandparents being super against letting the baby cry, doing any kind of sleep training, putting them on a schedule, etc. It's great that it's free but at least if you have a nanny you can tell them what to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These topics are difficult to discuss in mom forums (like this one) because people feel judged for the choices they make/made.

But let's assume you had access to any childcare option. There's no monetary constraint. You have loving grandparents who want to be caretakers for your infant. You have found the Mary Poppins of baby nannies and the cost is no big deal to you. How many would still choose center-based care for an infant?

Most of these findings line up with my intuitive feelings as a mom whose been through this a couple of times. But I didn't have infinite financial resources, we didn't have grandparents who lived nearby, the US does not grant a year or two years of parental leave, so we did the best we could.

I don't know, I mean I think there are valid questions to be asked about the research. I mean just saying that people don't want to hear what you are saying, doesn't make what you are saying right.

This whole thing about cortisol in kids in daycare strikes me as really disingenuous fearmongering. Cortisol levels vary based on sleep patterns. A lot of kids nap at daycare and don't nap at home. So if you compare weekday level cortisol level patterns to weekends (which is what most of the studies do), you'll see a difference. Is it because daycare is a dystopia of stressed out young children? Maybe but I'm not convinced. It's funny because one of the few studies that actually compares kids that stay at home to kids that go to daycare found that the kids at home had higher cortisol levels. Then suddenly they mention the benefits of daycare - consistent schedules - which are really good for young kids' stress levels.

Yep. In daycare my kid is constantly engaging with other kids and toys he doesn't have at home. At home he gets bored, asks me to be super engaged with playing with him all the time, and wants to watch TV and whines when I say no.

I hear what you’re saying, but my kid has a nanny and she takes him to multiple activities each week, the playground, recreation center, or library every day. He is pretty much always with other kids. I definitely don’t worry about him getting bored.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole cortisol thing seems very concerning. But then I read this study which apparently is one of only a couple of studies to actually compare daycare kids to ones that stay at home (the other studies compare the same children on days they are home vs at child care). It shows cortisol levels are actually higher among kids being cared for at home (by parents or others). Then suddenly it becomes relevant to mention that unobserved/confounding variables play a role, and that the differences are small and vary a lot from child to child.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7497366/

Studies have shown this is related to daycare quality and child temperament. The Finnish daycares are obviously "high quality." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17007228/

All of the research points to some kids being more vulnerable to negative effects than others. If your kid is prone to anxiety/aggression/adhd, then daycare will make those outcomes worse. If your kid is an easygoing adaptable kid with no issues, they probably wont develop issues from daycare.

But the blog post that is the subject of this thread makes clear that daycare is essentially poisoning children with high stress levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In many parts of Asia, grandparents do the bulk of daytime childcare, so both parents are free to work at demanding jobs. And with loose employment regulations, boy, are those jobs rough.

Don’t the grandparents have jobs? If they’re old enough to be fully retired, I would think they’d be too old to be fully Abe to run around with a young child all day in the way a child needs.

Seems cheap and a way to take advantage of the elderly when they should be relaxing after decades of hard work

I'm the PP who posted about grandparents doing childcare in Asia. The retirement age in China is between 50 and 60, so it wouldn't be too old to run around with a child, especially if there are 2 grandparents babysitting at the same time. It's also a different culture, so family members there are expected to make huge uncompensated sacrifices for each other, for better or for worse.

Chinese person here - this may sound great but I have friends whose parents flew over from China to take care of their baby for months to a year. It may sound great but can also be a headache given the cultural/parenting style differences. I've heard stories of grandparents being super against letting the baby cry, doing any kind of sleep training, putting them on a schedule, etc. It's great that it's free but at least if you have a nanny you can tell them what to do.

I mean, that’s obvious isn’t it? There is no free lunch. They want the grandparents to help out for free, but they don’t want the grandparents to have any opinions on child rearing. People just want someone to do all the hard work for no pay and do whatever is told to them without any questions. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s your kid but you’re using them for free childcare. And everyone who is a parent knows how hard watching a baby all day long is. It’s not fun. It’s hard work, and is like a full time job. Also these grandparents are not professional childcare workers. So they put the kids in front of the TV all day and the parents gets mad because the old people don’t have energy or creativity to engage with young kids. The idea that you can get free childcare from grandparents and also control everything they do and expect them to shut their mouths is ridiculous. I’ve seen a ton of people do it.

There is “price” for free childcare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These topics are difficult to discuss in mom forums (like this one) because people feel judged for the choices they make/made.

But let's assume you had access to any childcare option. There's no monetary constraint. You have loving grandparents who want to be caretakers for your infant. You have found the Mary Poppins of baby nannies and the cost is no big deal to you. How many would still choose center-based care for an infant?

Most of these findings line up with my intuitive feelings as a mom whose been through this a couple of times. But I didn't have infinite financial resources, we didn't have grandparents who lived nearby, the US does not grant a year or two years of parental leave, so we did the best we could.

I don't know, I mean I think there are valid questions to be asked about the research. I mean just saying that people don't want to hear what you are saying, doesn't make what you are saying right.

This whole thing about cortisol in kids in daycare strikes me as really disingenuous fearmongering. Cortisol levels vary based on sleep patterns. A lot of kids nap at daycare and don't nap at home. So if you compare weekday level cortisol level patterns to weekends (which is what most of the studies do), you'll see a difference. Is it because daycare is a dystopia of stressed out young children? Maybe but I'm not convinced. It's funny because one of the few studies that actually compares kids that stay at home to kids that go to daycare found that the kids at home had higher cortisol levels. Then suddenly they mention the benefits of daycare - consistent schedules - which are really good for young kids' stress levels.

Yep. In daycare my kid is constantly engaging with other kids and toys he doesn't have at home. At home he gets bored, asks me to be super engaged with playing with him all the time, and wants to watch TV and whines when I say no.

I hear what you’re saying, but my kid has a nanny and she takes him to multiple activities each week, the playground, recreation center, or library every day. He is pretty much always with other kids. I definitely don’t worry about him getting bored.

I see nannies around my neighborhood all the time and half the time they're just on their phone looking super bored while the kid(s) sit in the stroller.

Hopefully you found a good nanny!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most of the studies she cites are 15+ years old and some are from the 70s. Does not seem very current

Did Science 2 come out in the mean time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the studies she cites are 15+ years old and some are from the 70s. Does not seem very current

Did Science 2 come out in the mean time?

Lol! But old studies do kind of suck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These topics are difficult to discuss in mom forums (like this one) because people feel judged for the choices they make/made.

But let's assume you had access to any childcare option. There's no monetary constraint. You have loving grandparents who want to be caretakers for your infant. You have found the Mary Poppins of baby nannies and the cost is no big deal to you. How many would still choose center-based care for an infant?

Most of these findings line up with my intuitive feelings as a mom whose been through this a couple of times. But I didn't have infinite financial resources, we didn't have grandparents who lived nearby, the US does not grant a year or two years of parental leave, so we did the best we could.

I don't know, I mean I think there are valid questions to be asked about the research. I mean just saying that people don't want to hear what you are saying, doesn't make what you are saying right.

This whole thing about cortisol in kids in daycare strikes me as really disingenuous fearmongering. Cortisol levels vary based on sleep patterns. A lot of kids nap at daycare and don't nap at home. So if you compare weekday level cortisol level patterns to weekends (which is what most of the studies do), you'll see a difference. Is it because daycare is a dystopia of stressed out young children? Maybe but I'm not convinced. It's funny because one of the few studies that actually compares kids that stay at home to kids that go to daycare found that the kids at home had higher cortisol levels. Then suddenly they mention the benefits of daycare - consistent schedules - which are really good for young kids' stress levels.

Yep. In daycare my kid is constantly engaging with other kids and toys he doesn't have at home. At home he gets bored, asks me to be super engaged with playing with him all the time, and wants to watch TV and whines when I say no.

I hear what you’re saying, but my kid has a nanny and she takes him to multiple activities each week, the playground, recreation center, or library every day. He is pretty much always with other kids. I definitely don’t worry about him getting bored.

Your nanny sounds great but worth considering that there is more value to group childcare settings than just socialization with other kids. There's also structure, learning patience and learning to tolerate not being the center of attention. Even if your nanny takes the child to playgroups she is still giving him 1:1 attention.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In many parts of Asia, grandparents do the bulk of daytime childcare, so both parents are free to work at demanding jobs. And with loose employment regulations, boy, are those jobs rough.

Don’t the grandparents have jobs? If they’re old enough to be fully retired, I would think they’d be too old to be fully Abe to run around with a young child all day in the way a child needs.

Seems cheap and a way to take advantage of the elderly when they should be relaxing after decades of hard work

I'm the PP who posted about grandparents doing childcare in Asia. The retirement age in China is between 50 and 60, so it wouldn't be too old to run around with a child, especially if there are 2 grandparents babysitting at the same time. It's also a different culture, so family members there are expected to make huge uncompensated sacrifices for each other, for better or for worse.

Chinese person here - this may sound great but I have friends whose parents flew over from China to take care of their baby for months to a year. It may sound great but can also be a headache given the cultural/parenting style differences. I've heard stories of grandparents being super against letting the baby cry, doing any kind of sleep training, putting them on a schedule, etc. It's great that it's free but at least if you have a nanny you can tell them what to do.

I mean, that’s obvious isn’t it? There is no free lunch. They want the grandparents to help out for free, but they don’t want the grandparents to have any opinions on child rearing. People just want someone to do all the hard work for no pay and do whatever is told to them without any questions. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s your kid but you’re using them for free childcare. And everyone who is a parent knows how hard watching a baby all day long is. It’s not fun. It’s hard work, and is like a full time job. Also these grandparents are not professional childcare workers. So they put the kids in front of the TV all day and the parents gets mad because the old people don’t have energy or creativity to engage with young kids. The idea that you can get free childcare from grandparents and also control everything they do and expect them to shut their mouths is ridiculous. I’ve seen a ton of people do it.

There is “price” for free childcare.

Ha yep. My mom graciously watches DD multiple times a year for long weekend couples trips, etc. but hooo boy we have different views on childrearing. I have learned to bite my tongue as nothing she does is unsafe or harmful, just against my preferences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These topics are difficult to discuss in mom forums (like this one) because people feel judged for the choices they make/made.

But let's assume you had access to any childcare option. There's no monetary constraint. You have loving grandparents who want to be caretakers for your infant. You have found the Mary Poppins of baby nannies and the cost is no big deal to you. How many would still choose center-based care for an infant?

Most of these findings line up with my intuitive feelings as a mom whose been through this a couple of times. But I didn't have infinite financial resources, we didn't have grandparents who lived nearby, the US does not grant a year or two years of parental leave, so we did the best we could.

I don't know, I mean I think there are valid questions to be asked about the research. I mean just saying that people don't want to hear what you are saying, doesn't make what you are saying right.

This whole thing about cortisol in kids in daycare strikes me as really disingenuous fearmongering. Cortisol levels vary based on sleep patterns. A lot of kids nap at daycare and don't nap at home. So if you compare weekday level cortisol level patterns to weekends (which is what most of the studies do), you'll see a difference. Is it because daycare is a dystopia of stressed out young children? Maybe but I'm not convinced. It's funny because one of the few studies that actually compares kids that stay at home to kids that go to daycare found that the kids at home had higher cortisol levels. Then suddenly they mention the benefits of daycare - consistent schedules - which are really good for young kids' stress levels.

Yep. In daycare my kid is constantly engaging with other kids and toys he doesn't have at home. At home he gets bored, asks me to be super engaged with playing with him all the time, and wants to watch TV and whines when I say no.

Now you've got a kid who doesn't know how to exist without being constantly stimulated. Not sure that's a win.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These topics are difficult to discuss in mom forums (like this one) because people feel judged for the choices they make/made.

But let's assume you had access to any childcare option. There's no monetary constraint. You have loving grandparents who want to be caretakers for your infant. You have found the Mary Poppins of baby nannies and the cost is no big deal to you. How many would still choose center-based care for an infant?

Most of these findings line up with my intuitive feelings as a mom whose been through this a couple of times. But I didn't have infinite financial resources, we didn't have grandparents who lived nearby, the US does not grant a year or two years of parental leave, so we did the best we could.

I don't know, I mean I think there are valid questions to be asked about the research. I mean just saying that people don't want to hear what you are saying, doesn't make what you are saying right.

This whole thing about cortisol in kids in daycare strikes me as really disingenuous fearmongering. Cortisol levels vary based on sleep patterns. A lot of kids nap at daycare and don't nap at home. So if you compare weekday level cortisol level patterns to weekends (which is what most of the studies do), you'll see a difference. Is it because daycare is a dystopia of stressed out young children? Maybe but I'm not convinced. It's funny because one of the few studies that actually compares kids that stay at home to kids that go to daycare found that the kids at home had higher cortisol levels. Then suddenly they mention the benefits of daycare - consistent schedules - which are really good for young kids' stress levels.

Yep. In daycare my kid is constantly engaging with other kids and toys he doesn't have at home. At home he gets bored, asks me to be super engaged with playing with him all the time, and wants to watch TV and whines when I say no.

This doesn’t make me want to send my child to daycare. I’d be worried about the constant stimuli and noise. Your poor child never gets a break from other kids, movement, noise etc. I understand that kids have siblings but daycare is on another level. I’d be concerned if your child is acting like this at home. You can almost tell daycare kids because they are always work out and over stimulated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These topics are difficult to discuss in mom forums (like this one) because people feel judged for the choices they make/made.

But let's assume you had access to any childcare option. There's no monetary constraint. You have loving grandparents who want to be caretakers for your infant. You have found the Mary Poppins of baby nannies and the cost is no big deal to you. How many would still choose center-based care for an infant?

Most of these findings line up with my intuitive feelings as a mom whose been through this a couple of times. But I didn't have infinite financial resources, we didn't have grandparents who lived nearby, the US does not grant a year or two years of parental leave, so we did the best we could.

I don't know, I mean I think there are valid questions to be asked about the research. I mean just saying that people don't want to hear what you are saying, doesn't make what you are saying right.

This whole thing about cortisol in kids in daycare strikes me as really disingenuous fearmongering. Cortisol levels vary based on sleep patterns. A lot of kids nap at daycare and don't nap at home. So if you compare weekday level cortisol level patterns to weekends (which is what most of the studies do), you'll see a difference. Is it because daycare is a dystopia of stressed out young children? Maybe but I'm not convinced. It's funny because one of the few studies that actually compares kids that stay at home to kids that go to daycare found that the kids at home had higher cortisol levels. Then suddenly they mention the benefits of daycare - consistent schedules - which are really good for young kids' stress levels.

Yep. In daycare my kid is constantly engaging with other kids and toys he doesn't have at home. At home he gets bored, asks me to be super engaged with playing with him all the time, and wants to watch TV and whines when I say no.

Now you've got a kid who doesn't know how to exist without being constantly stimulated. Not sure that's a win.

I’m a DP and just commented something similar! I read the PP and was thinking YIKES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole cortisol thing seems very concerning. But then I read this study which apparently is one of only a couple of studies to actually compare daycare kids to ones that stay at home (the other studies compare the same children on days they are home vs at child care). It shows cortisol levels are actually higher among kids being cared for at home (by parents or others). Then suddenly it becomes relevant to mention that unobserved/confounding variables play a role, and that the differences are small and vary a lot from child to child.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7497366/

Studies have shown this is related to daycare quality and child temperament. The Finnish daycares are obviously "high quality." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17007228/

All of the research points to some kids being more vulnerable to negative effects than others. If your kid is prone to anxiety/aggression/adhd, then daycare will make those outcomes worse. If your kid is an easygoing adaptable kid with no issues, they probably wont develop issues from daycare.

So my pancake would be cold or hot or medium?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These topics are difficult to discuss in mom forums (like this one) because people feel judged for the choices they make/made.

But let's assume you had access to any childcare option. There's no monetary constraint. You have loving grandparents who want to be caretakers for your infant. You have found the Mary Poppins of baby nannies and the cost is no big deal to you. How many would still choose center-based care for an infant?

Most of these findings line up with my intuitive feelings as a mom whose been through this a couple of times. But I didn't have infinite financial resources, we didn't have grandparents who lived nearby, the US does not grant a year or two years of parental leave, so we did the best we could.

I don't know, I mean I think there are valid questions to be asked about the research. I mean just saying that people don't want to hear what you are saying, doesn't make what you are saying right.

This whole thing about cortisol in kids in daycare strikes me as really disingenuous fearmongering. Cortisol levels vary based on sleep patterns. A lot of kids nap at daycare and don't nap at home. So if you compare weekday level cortisol level patterns to weekends (which is what most of the studies do), you'll see a difference. Is it because daycare is a dystopia of stressed out young children? Maybe but I'm not convinced. It's funny because one of the few studies that actually compares kids that stay at home to kids that go to daycare found that the kids at home had higher cortisol levels. Then suddenly they mention the benefits of daycare - consistent schedules - which are really good for young kids' stress levels.

Yep. In daycare my kid is constantly engaging with other kids and toys he doesn't have at home. At home he gets bored, asks me to be super engaged with playing with him all the time, and wants to watch TV and whines when I say no.

This doesn’t make me want to send my child to daycare. I’d be worried about the constant stimuli and noise. Your poor child never gets a break from other kids, movement, noise etc. I understand that kids have siblings but daycare is on another level. I’d be concerned if your child is acting like this at home. You can almost tell daycare kids because they are always work out and over stimulated.

There are Family daycares that has spaces/rooms for children that feel overstimulsted.

Shhh it's called the quiet rooms

Usually it has pillows, books, not much posters, it's a safe area. Parents finds Daycares that can help thier kids who has disabilities. Many providers are trained. Kids like adhd needs small groups or a nanny.

[Anonymous]

*overstimulated