I’m confused! Trans swimmers Lia Thomas and Iszac Henig went head-to-head in the pool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the article;

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/7/22850789/trans-athletes-college-ncaa-lia-thomas

Keep in mind that in any given year there are about 500,000 NCAA,NAIA and JC athletes. You are more likely to get bitten by a shark than compete against or with a trans athlete.

Why do people think we should find this comforting? One of those supposedly super rare trans athletes joins the Penn women’s swim team and immediately smashes records. What happens when more and more trans athletes join women’s teams?

Women’s sports needs to remain the domain of those born female. Otherwise it is in no way fair competition.

More and more trans athletes? Form where are all these phantom athletes going to materials? This is a very rare situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh dear. Yes that long standing and beloved Akron Zips pool record in the 500 yard event is now held by Thomas. Why - who can forget that important pool record holder from some year (quick what is her name? Insert it here).

Why every year we celebrate the holder of the Zips pool record in the 500 yard race (or was it the 1650 yard race?) with a cake and cookies? When is the party this year?

If you really don’t want Thomas’ name on that pool wall you could hold a regional JO event there, or another invitational and get a couple SEC teams to come.

It doesn't matter if people cannot remember or even know the record-holder's name.
The point is that allowing a biological male to compete against females makes the race not equitable....... the biological male has a genetic advantage.
It is a slap in the face to the biological females competing against the biological male.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the article;

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/7/22850789/trans-athletes-college-ncaa-lia-thomas

Keep in mind that in any given year there are about 500,000 NCAA,NAIA and JC athletes. You are more likely to get bitten by a shark than compete against or with a trans athlete.

Why do people think we should find this comforting? One of those supposedly super rare trans athletes joins the Penn women’s swim team and immediately smashes records. What happens when more and more trans athletes join women’s teams?

Women’s sports needs to remain the domain of those born female. Otherwise it is in no way fair competition.

More and more trans athletes? Form where are all these phantom athletes going to materials? This is a very rare situation.

Rare now. And, unfair now.
How can you say this won't become more prevalent in 2 years? 5 years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the article;

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/7/22850789/trans-athletes-college-ncaa-lia-thomas

Keep in mind that in any given year there are about 500,000 NCAA,NAIA and JC athletes. You are more likely to get bitten by a shark than compete against or with a trans athlete.

Why do people think we should find this comforting? One of those supposedly super rare trans athletes joins the Penn women’s swim team and immediately smashes records. What happens when more and more trans athletes join women’s teams?

Women’s sports needs to remain the domain of those born female. Otherwise it is in no way fair competition.

More and more trans athletes? Form where are all these phantom athletes going to materials? This is a very rare situation.

It’s either right or wrong, rare or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The question OP asked has yet to be answered. He should on the male swim team, which I am in full support of. But why did they let him stay on the females? Plus, its likeky causing great distress for him.

Him staying on the women's team is the unfair outcome of being a trans athlete. To be clear, I don't think there is an answer that's fair to everyone, but the way this is playing out is particularly unfair to biological women. Henig did not join the men's team because he couldn't compete and wouldn't win in the men's competitions; we don't even know if he would have made the team. Trans men have to make that choice of whether or not to fully transition OR stay competitive in the sport they've played since childhood and invested a lot of time and money in. Henig made his choice. Trans women, on the other hand, don't have to make any sort of choice like that. It's a win-win, because Thomas gets to transition AND dominant the sport.

My concern with trans athletes is that it's only going one way. We aren't seeing any trans men push to join the men's team because it's a biological impossibility to be competitive, even if they have taken a few years of testosterone. Trans men aren't joining the track team, as trans women are. They aren't joining the swim team. They aren't joining the basketball team. So trans men are out of luck and by transitioning are accepting they are giving up the ability to play competitive sports. Trans women aren't giving up anything.

The argument that it's unfair for all trans athletes to have to give up their sport if they transition is a false false dilemma, because it only goes one way and that's to the advantage of the biological male.

In your experience, do all cis males make every team they try out for?

Yes, in my experience, all cis male athletes would make the female team of the same sport.

That wasn't the question. though. was it?

There will always be cis boys who don't make the boy's team.
There will always be cis girls who don't make the girl's team.

If you think the thing holding your daughter back from being Katie Ledecky is that there is a trans girl on her swim team, I don't know what to tell you.

You're missing my point.

How many trans women athletes previously playing on the men's team will make the women's team? All of them.

How many trans men athletes previously playing on the women's team will make the men's team? None of them.

We are arguing over the rights of biological males to transition and compete. Any rules do not, in any practical way, apply to biological females who transition. It's a one way street and nobody seems to be concerned about how to make it more fair for trans men. We're only talking about trans women.

You've never played sports, I'm guessing. I'm not missing your point; I just don't agree with you. I am a cis woman (and I'm also old and cranky). I played sports throughout childhood and D3 (generally poorly). The reason tryouts and jv teams and developmental teams and divisions etc exist is because you don't put the lesser athlete on a team they can't compete on just because it's "not fair" that they can't play as well as others. A trans girl is a girl. She's not taking your daughter's spot, she's just a better athlete, and I suspect most athletes would agree with me. What about the cis girls who are better than your kid? What's your beef with them? She's taller? It's not fair that her parents got her a private coach? It's not fair she has better equipment? She got to go to better camps? There is no army of cis boys taking over girls teams. Knock it off.

np If a trans girl was always a girl than what are they transitioning to? I've played sports and yes not everyone can make the team but, we didn't fight for women's sports all this time just to have former men take over. What if the whole team was trans women? Where do cis women get to compete? And we are allowed to discuss this. Sorry you think you have the right to tell us to shut up but, we won't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The question OP asked has yet to be answered. He should on the male swim team, which I am in full support of. But why did they let him stay on the females? Plus, its likeky causing great distress for him.

Him staying on the women's team is the unfair outcome of being a trans athlete. To be clear, I don't think there is an answer that's fair to everyone, but the way this is playing out is particularly unfair to biological women. Henig did not join the men's team because he couldn't compete and wouldn't win in the men's competitions; we don't even know if he would have made the team. Trans men have to make that choice of whether or not to fully transition OR stay competitive in the sport they've played since childhood and invested a lot of time and money in. Henig made his choice. Trans women, on the other hand, don't have to make any sort of choice like that. It's a win-win, because Thomas gets to transition AND dominant the sport.

My concern with trans athletes is that it's only going one way. We aren't seeing any trans men push to join the men's team because it's a biological impossibility to be competitive, even if they have taken a few years of testosterone. Trans men aren't joining the track team, as trans women are. They aren't joining the swim team. They aren't joining the basketball team. So trans men are out of luck and by transitioning are accepting they are giving up the ability to play competitive sports. Trans women aren't giving up anything.

The argument that it's unfair for all trans athletes to have to give up their sport if they transition is a false false dilemma, because it only goes one way and that's to the advantage of the biological male.

In your experience, do all cis males make every team they try out for?

Yes, in my experience, all cis male athletes would make the female team of the same sport.

That wasn't the question. though. was it?

There will always be cis boys who don't make the boy's team.
There will always be cis girls who don't make the girl's team.

If you think the thing holding your daughter back from being Katie Ledecky is that there is a trans girl on her swim team, I don't know what to tell you.

You're missing my point.

How many trans women athletes previously playing on the men's team will make the women's team? All of them.

How many trans men athletes previously playing on the women's team will make the men's team? None of them.

We are arguing over the rights of biological males to transition and compete. Any rules do not, in any practical way, apply to biological females who transition. It's a one way street and nobody seems to be concerned about how to make it more fair for trans men. We're only talking about trans women.

You've never played sports, I'm guessing. I'm not missing your point; I just don't agree with you. I am a cis woman (and I'm also old and cranky). I played sports throughout childhood and D3 (generally poorly). The reason tryouts and jv teams and developmental teams and divisions etc exist is because you don't put the lesser athlete on a team they can't compete on just because it's "not fair" that they can't play as well as others. A trans girl is a girl. She's not taking your daughter's spot, she's just a better athlete, and I suspect most athletes would agree with me. What about the cis girls who are better than your kid? What's your beef with them? She's taller? It's not fair that her parents got her a private coach? It's not fair she has better equipment? She got to go to better camps? There is no army of cis boys taking over girls teams. Knock it off.

np If a trans girl was always a girl than what are they transitioning to? I've played sports and yes not everyone can make the team but, we didn't fight for women's sports all this time just to have former men take over. What if the whole team was trans women? Where do cis women get to compete? And we are allowed to discuss this. Sorry you think you have the right to tell us to shut up but, we won't.

You just need to understand that the best female athletes are those that have gone through puberty as boys. It's not even that complicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the article;

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/7/22850789/trans-athletes-college-ncaa-lia-thomas

Keep in mind that in any given year there are about 500,000 NCAA,NAIA and JC athletes. You are more likely to get bitten by a shark than compete against or with a trans athlete.

Why do people think we should find this comforting? One of those supposedly super rare trans athletes joins the Penn women’s swim team and immediately smashes records. What happens when more and more trans athletes join women’s teams?

Women’s sports needs to remain the domain of those born female. Otherwise it is in no way fair competition.

More and more trans athletes? Form where are all these phantom athletes going to materials? This is a very rare situation.

It’s either right or wrong, rare or not.

Ok. We are all in the process of sorting this issue out. But don't oversimplify a complete issue and don't spend all your time and energy carrying on about a situation that is extremely rare when there are much more common problems needing attention.

[Anonymous]

Complex issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let’s get this out of the way : No transphobic comments so this thread doesn’t get shut down.

Now, I don’t have an issue with trans-athletes competing on their new gendered team as long as the appropriate changes have been made relative to the sports requirements. That said, I don’t understand why there is a trans man is competing on the Yale’s female swim team. How does that make any sense, this person should WANT to be on the male swim team. Doesn’t this make it an open/mixed team.

Here is the article : https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/9/22874147/lia-thomas-iszac-henig-penn-swimming-transgender-athlete-yale-ncaa-ivy

The headline: Thomas showed slower times in her two wins, as Yale transgender swimmer Iszac Henig showed speed, beating Thomas head-to-head.

Just seems people choose the team that is more convenient to them and the school is happy to scoop up medals because it means more $$ for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

Wait a year. You'll see.

So - no proof at all. Considered there are not 40 MtF or FtM trans athletes participating in high school today - out of about 6,000,000 high school athletes unless you have some proof - take your anti -trans, and anti-lgbt rhetoric elsewhere.

PP—Your logic is lacking. You can’t predict the future of this topic based on what you see now. The high school numbers don’t matter when someone doesn’t become trans until college. Your post makes no sense.

Take your anti-woman thinking elsewhere.

Your last anti-trans thread got nuked also. Go away.

I didn’t start a thread and I’m not anti-trans. Let’s create whole trans teams. I’m all for that. Why are you against that?

There aren’t any. 27 MtF and FtM trans athletes participating in college sports in 10 years. Ohhh. Scary. Whatever shall we do?

Sarcasm: The easy out.

Sarcasm: How to say something while saying nothing.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand people who care about sports. But people who care about who is trans or what gender someone is or what gender they were born with vs. now.... incomprehensible to me that anyone cares. Unless you are romantically interested in a person WHO CARES

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

Wait a year. You'll see.

So - no proof at all. Considered there are not 40 MtF or FtM trans athletes participating in high school today - out of about 6,000,000 high school athletes unless you have some proof - take your anti -trans, and anti-lgbt rhetoric elsewhere.

PP—Your logic is lacking. You can’t predict the future of this topic based on what you see now. The high school numbers don’t matter when someone doesn’t become trans until college. Your post makes no sense.

Take your anti-woman thinking elsewhere.

Your last anti-trans thread got nuked also. Go away.

I didn’t start a thread and I’m not anti-trans. Let’s create whole trans teams. I’m all for that. Why are you against that?

There aren’t any. 27 MtF and FtM trans athletes participating in college sports in 10 years. Ohhh. Scary. Whatever shall we do?

Sarcasm: The easy out.

Sarcasm: How to say something while saying nothing.

I will help you out if you are struggling to understand the sarcasm.. It would be impossible to have a separate league for trans individuals since there are very very few teams athletes.

[Anonymous]

Trans athletes*

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand people who care about sports. But people who care about who is trans or what gender someone is or what gender they were born with vs. now.... incomprehensible to me that anyone cares. Unless you are romantically interested in a person WHO CARES

They don't understand or care. This is yet another issue being manipulated for political advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enough.

Out Magazine did the research. In the 10 years since the NCAA adopted its latest set of rules regarding trans athlete participation there have been a grand total of 27 trans athletes, MtF and FtM, who have participated in a and college sport. That’s NCAA, NAIA, and Junior college. So - far more than 1,000,000 college athletes over that same 10 year period. And, so far, the only trans athlete to win any championship- either individually or as a team - is CeCe Telfer who ran a 57.53 400m hurdles in 2019. That time would not have put her in the D1 finals for that event.

So?
You don't think the number of trans athletes will increase in the next couple of years?
I do. Considerably.
At the expense of biological women.

And your proof?

Wait a year. You'll see.

So - no proof at all. Considered there are not 40 MtF or FtM trans athletes participating in high school today - out of about 6,000,000 high school athletes unless you have some proof - take your anti -trans, and anti-lgbt rhetoric elsewhere.

PP—Your logic is lacking. You can’t predict the future of this topic based on what you see now. The high school numbers don’t matter when someone doesn’t become trans until college. Your post makes no sense.

Take your anti-woman thinking elsewhere.

Your last anti-trans thread got nuked also. Go away.

I didn’t start a thread and I’m not anti-trans. Let’s create whole trans teams. I’m all for that. Why are you against that?

There aren’t any. 27 MtF and FtM trans athletes participating in college sports in 10 years. Ohhh. Scary. Whatever shall we do?

Sarcasm: The easy out.

Sarcasm: How to say something while saying nothing.

I will help you out if you are struggling to understand the sarcasm.. It would be impossible to have a separate league for trans individuals since there are very very few teams athletes.

Then perhaps the trans athletes could simply pursue their sport recreationally and leave women’s competitions alone. If there’s so few of them, what’s the big deal with that?