Do you think we will see a massive uptick in women choosing to stay home after this?

[Anonymous]

Okay, so skipping like 40 pages of arguments, I’ll just answer the original question: I’d say at home in a heartbeat if I was secure enough to do so. Unfortunately, I made stupid financial choices in my 20’s and 30’s and i am way behind on any kind or retirement savings. DH’s and I have a very shaky marriage and I can’t count on his (he’s made bad financial decisions as well and has just a federal pension) so I have to keep working.

But if I could? Of course I would. Life is so short. Just this month at home with my 6 year old, even though I’m actually working more at home than in the office, has been amazing. I was able to take a couple of days off before the stay at home order and take him to some national historical parks and we both learned so much. He’s read way more and we read so much together. We camped in the back yard. I don’t wake up every day dreading work and every night de-stressing. I hate my job. I hate losing so much time with my child.

But that’s just me. If I loved my job? I’d be happier doing a job. But I’m a lucky late in life mom and there’s nothing I love more than being with this kid, learning with him, raising him. If I had the money, I’d buy a smal RV and spend a few years road schooling him before middle school.

I’ve accomplished a lot professionally. He knows that and is proud of me. Someday I’ll publish some books. But for now, man, I wish I could do this full time!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay, so skipping like 40 pages of arguments, I’ll just answer the original question: I’d say at home in a heartbeat if I was secure enough to do so. Unfortunately, I made stupid financial choices in my 20’s and 30’s and i am way behind on any kind or retirement savings. DH’s and I have a very shaky marriage and I can’t count on his (he’s made bad financial decisions as well and has just a federal pension) so I have to keep working.

But if I could? Of course I would. Life is so short. Just this month at home with my 6 year old, even though I’m actually working more at home than in the office, has been amazing. I was able to take a couple of days off before the stay at home order and take him to some national historical parks and we both learned so much. He’s read way more and we read so much together. We camped in the back yard. I don’t wake up every day dreading work and every night de-stressing. I hate my job. I hate losing so much time with my child.

But that’s just me. If I loved my job? I’d be happier doing a job. But I’m a lucky late in life mom and there’s nothing I love more than being with this kid, learning with him, raising him. If I had the money, I’d buy a smal RV and spend a few years road schooling him before middle school.

I’ve accomplished a lot professionally. He knows that and is proud of me. Someday I’ll publish some books. But for now, man, I wish I could do this full time!

What is your job that you hate, out of curiosity?

I'm taking off a whole summer before each of my kids starts school.

[Anonymous]

I would quit my job if I won the lottery, so I can't really relate to the people who get a strong sense of self from their work. But I don't know if I would stay home if my husband was my lottery ticket without a post-nup. We have a really good division of labor in our house, where our daughter sees both of us doing everything, which is intentional and something we discussed even when just dating. I would also worry about resentment on the part of the working spouse, just because I feel like unless you think "work/stay home is what men/women are supposed to do" then it's natural to feel stressed/resentful when all the financial worry is on your head. I know there are families where that's not a concern and I think that's really impressive but I'm not sure I'm built for it personally. (DH probably moreso but not perfectly.)

Anyway if you think SAHMs are intellectually incurious or worthless or you think WOHMs don't love their kids or aren't hot enough to bag a provider, you're a certifiable nut job. We're all doing the best we can, and we were all very different people to begin with. The only people I look down on are the ones screaming at each other here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would quit my job if I won the lottery, so I can't really relate to the people who get a strong sense of self from their work. But I don't know if I would stay home if my husband was my lottery ticket without a post-nup. We have a really good division of labor in our house, where our daughter sees both of us doing everything, which is intentional and something we discussed even when just dating. I would also worry about resentment on the part of the working spouse, just because I feel like unless you think "work/stay home is what men/women are supposed to do" then it's natural to feel stressed/resentful when all the financial worry is on your head. I know there are families where that's not a concern and I think that's really impressive but I'm not sure I'm built for it personally. (DH probably moreso but not perfectly.)

Anyway if you think SAHMs are intellectually incurious or worthless or you think WOHMs don't love their kids or aren't hot enough to bag a provider, you're a certifiable nut job. We're all doing the best we can, and we were all very different people to begin with. The only people I look down on are the ones screaming at each other here.

If you want to see certifiable nut jobs, any of these threads and any Meghan Markle thread are a good place to start. There are some people here who have serious issues.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have never met a SAHM who cares if anyone else works or not. The number of WOHMs here, however, that invent weird narratives about SAHMs who live pitiful existences and are miserably married is truly remarkable. No one accused you of anything, but the hostile attacks on SAHMs reeks of mom guilt.

+1. I see nastiness on both sides, but the vitriol from the working moms is on another level. Thinking sahms are worthless, don’t contribute to society, really? You have to have a deep sense of self hatred and raging jealousy to have such strong feelings about anyone else.

Nope, sorry, but you have blinders on. There is SO much vitriol from stay at home moms who accuse working moms of "abandoning their kids in daycares" and ask why they bothered to have kids at all. You sound like a fool for blaming one group more than the other.

I have been on both sides and it’s definitely nastier from WOH, 100%. UMC circle though where you don’t get a lot of SAHMs that don’t use housekeeper or preschool, so there’s not much of the “letting other people raise your kids” narrative since most use some form of childcare themselves and see the merits of it.

+ 1
I feel a rage in many WOH moms. It ranges from calling SAHMs worthless, submissive, anti-feminists, doormats to accusing them of "riding the gravy train". There are dire predictions that their DH's will leave them for a working woman, thereby leaving the SAHM and her kids destitute. Then on other forums they are crying about being devalued at work, being incompetent, having a boss from hell. They cry about hating their husband, sexual dysfunction, being attracted to others and husband cheating. They are unhappy about their messy homes or behaviour problems with their kids. THey are stressed out and bitchy when they have to function on the weekends in any social capacity. They are also very dismissive of other WOHMs - no sympathy for a new WOHM who is trying to pump or breastfeed at work for example. They are dismissive of other WOHMs who don't make enough money to outsource chores, and they are absolutely nasty to the other WOHMs who are cleaning their homes or looking after their children.

It is just RAGE, RAGE, RAGE...

I agree. I’ve always wondered why they get so triggered.

Like the PP who said something about meeting her kids at the door every day. It’s been quoted several times. If you are secure in your choice to work, why do you care that she thinks it’s a luxury worth paying for (in forgone she become) to greet her kids at the door?

Really, why do you care? I want to know. And don’t give me any crap about setting a bad example for her kids because that is dumb. Kids grow into adults who do what they want to do.

I was one of the people who responded to the mom at the door. There were others, so it's not like I was the only one with that opinion. But in any event, I don't care what other people think. So if she thinks it's a luxury to greet her kids at the door every day then good for her. I'm all for women being in a position to choose what they want to do, whatever that is. However, I also happen to think that having both parents be present in kids' lives in very important. So to me, what I think, not that it should matter to anyone else, is that both parents should be the ones making dinner, taking their kids to activities, giving them baths, greeting that at the door. And your "crap about setting a bad example for her kids" isn't actually crap. Sure, kids can make conscious choices to be different than their parents, but many, many people grow up imitating what they saw from their parents. You're a fool if you completely discount that.

Door greeter mom here. My husband gets home at 6 or 6:30 on a normal (pre pandemic) day. So he’s home plenty. As soon as he gets home, we sit down to dinner together as a family. Our kids are old enough not to need help with baths anymore but back when they hey we’re little, he did his share of bath time and middle of the night feedings.

So your assumptions are totally off. Not every SAHM mom is married to an absentee father.

So, he’s not taking the kids to after-school activities. He’s not making dinner. He’s not greeting them at the door. Your post doesn’t change anything.

He’s home with us for typically 3 hours before they go to bed. For one thing, he often does pick up at some of their activities. I drop them off and stay for a bit to watch because they like that and actively request it. Them I leave about midway to 2/3 through to get dinner started so we can eat when they all walk in the door. The two of us clean up together while the kids take baths or showers. Then it’s time to do homework and study, which we both help with in a divide and conquer way. Then we either play a game together as a family or pull out books to read before bed. Then bedtime routines. We both still give our kids 5-10 minute cuddles before bed.

So he’s very involved in our home life. Not to mention, we always do something fun together on the weekends. That’s the biggest perk of having a SAHP. Weekends are free from errands and chores so we can just spend time together. We live in Denver so we have a lot of great outdoor adventures around us. We ski every Saturday in the winter, go hiking in the non winter months, day trips, weekend trips, museums, bike rides, picnics, etc.

He’s very involved in our family life.

Nice u-turn you took to defend yourself. Your original post doesn't paint this picture.

Because it didn’t come up initially. I said I SAH because when I was working, I wasn’t the kind of parent I wanted to be. I felt preoccupied, stressed, and irritable all the time. When I came home from work, the last thing I wanted to do was take care of a baby. It didn’t have much to do with my husband other than that he makes a good income and was supportive of whatever I wanted to do.

When our kids were little, my husband did half of the middle of the night wake ups. Our kids see him cooking and cleaning. They see me taking out the trash and mowing the lawn. They see both of us at their activities and schools and helping them with their homework and projects. I know that we’re modeling a happy, strong marriage and partnership to them. I have no concerns on that front.

These were your exact words:

And they have a mom at home who greets them at the door, runs them around to activities, hosts the play dates, volunteers in their schools, makes a home cooked meal every night, makes sure the house is nice and tidy, keeps on top of their homework schedules, etc.

The fact that YOU said YOU do all of this stuff is what people have an issue with. So own what you said and stop trying to backpedal your way into some sort of alternate family story.

I love that you’re trying to tell me about MY life like you know anything about it. Everything I’ve said is true and none of it is mutually exclusive. Kids come home at 3. I’m there to open the door to them, give them a snack, and hear about their day. Depending on the day, we either go to one of their scheduled activities, have a play date, go to the park or on a bike ride if it’s nice, or just veg out together by watching a movie.

DH comes home between 6-6:30. On some days, he brings the kids with him. Other days they’re already home. Then dinner, homework, shower, books, bed.

I haven’t said one untrue thing in this entire thread.

I SAH but most of my WOHMs do all these things and have high salaries ($200k+) ... everyone’s situation is different. I’m envious of WOH mom’s that have high paid flexible part time jobs.

Now this is just inaccurate. No MOST WOHMs are NOT home at 3 pm spending the hours between 3-6:30 with their kids. So just stop with this.

I’m a working mom and I don’t get home until 6:30-7 and I refuse to feel bad about it. Because I know most people who work are not home at that time of day either. It is what it is.

This is your own reading comprehension fail. I said most of MY WOHM friends. Two part time lawyers, two small business owners, one project manager and one in marketing. No one said you should feel bad above it. I’m just making the point that these blanket statements don’t apply to everyone. Everyone’s situation is unique.

You know how many ambitious people, both male and female, would look down on you and your friends for going part time and “mommy tracking” your careers? Justifiably. You’re not going to get to the top by going part time or deliberately dead ending your career. I’m sure your husbands know this? You know, the ones supplementing your part time income. I don’t know why you think you are so superior to the SAHMs. You’re just another mom who couldn’t hack it either.

NP. Maybe YOU, PP would look down on someone who managed to get a flexible yet well-paying job so that she could spend a lot of time with her kids. But honestly, I think most people would be jealous of a situation like that. What on earth do you mean about a mom who couldn't hack it? Just please stop, you're making all of us working moms look terrible. You and the RAGE SAHM should just go somewhere else.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For the working moms who think they are superior to stay at home moms because they make actual money, do you feel superior to working moms who make less than you? I'm a working mom, and I'm curious about this. I have friends who work harder than I do who make less and it would never occur to me to put a value on anyone (or deem anyone superior) because they made more money. To me, it's about how hard someone works, which could happen either at work or in a home. Putting a dollar value on the work someone does it something that is so subjective as to be meaningless. I mean, I don't think the movie stars who make $5M per movie are working that much harder than anyone else. They just happen to be in an industry that pays exorbitant sums.

Nah. Working isn’t just about money. Which is what many SAHMs don’t understand.

But it MOSTLY is. That is where you lose me. You can shout from the rooftops that you are doing this to be a role model to your children or to have something outside of children to talk about but when it comes down to it, most are making the choice to work for financial reasons and when you run the numbers of your personal family budget, it makes sense for both parents in your household to work to have the lifestyle you want. That's ok and I am sure you have taken the other reasons into some consideration as well, but they aren't number one. There are a lot of opportunities to be pretty involved on a pro bono level in many industries without taking a paycheck.

NP, but you're just failing to understand what some people get out of working. For some, it is much more about intellectual stimulation, etc. For you to say it isn't doesn't make it so. And to say that someone should work pro bono instead if money isn't their number one concern is also not understanding. You can admit that for YOU money is the consideration. But you don't get to say that it is for everyone else.

If you are seriously trying to argue that most people don’t work for financial reasons I have nothing else to say..

PP said that money is the number one consideration for everyone. And no, it isn't.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are middle grounds here. I work during school hours & early in the morning. It actually adds up to 40 hours, but I get to pick up my daughter. I realize I’m fortunate. Everyone should do what works for their specific family!!

+ 100. I am similar and feel like we should spend our time forcing companies to allow these kind of flexible roles (and to extend maternity and paternity leaves). It would be a lot more productive these tired SAHM vs. WOHM debates.

In my mind, there is no question that it’s best for babies and toddlers to spend the majority of their waking hours with a parent or grandparent. On the other hand, it shouldn’t require sacrificing one’s career (and ambition and mental capabilities) to do so.

Just stop with this nonsense.

[Anonymous]

I have a slack (but very well paying) job that allows me to be home when my kids get home and leave when me kids leave for school. I never miss a swim class or ballet class. We have family dinners every night. (Husband works 95% from home)

We also make enough money to have a lot of added luxuries than if I didn’t work.

I enjoy my coworkers and even my boss.

No way I’m giving this up. Life is too good!

[Anonymous]

One thing this thread has shown is that insanity and unhappiness have little to do with whether you WOH or SAH. Some of you ladies are certifiable.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are middle grounds here. I work during school hours & early in the morning. It actually adds up to 40 hours, but I get to pick up my daughter. I realize I’m fortunate. Everyone should do what works for their specific family!!

+ 100. I am similar and feel like we should spend our time forcing companies to allow these kind of flexible roles (and to extend maternity and paternity leaves). It would be a lot more productive these tired SAHM vs. WOHM debates.

In my mind, there is no question that it’s best for babies and toddlers to spend the majority of their waking hours with a parent or grandparent. On the other hand, it shouldn’t require sacrificing one’s career (and ambition and mental capabilities) to do so.

Just stop with this nonsense.

Your extreme guilt is preventing you from admitting the obvious.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are middle grounds here. I work during school hours & early in the morning. It actually adds up to 40 hours, but I get to pick up my daughter. I realize I’m fortunate. Everyone should do what works for their specific family!!

+ 100. I am similar and feel like we should spend our time forcing companies to allow these kind of flexible roles (and to extend maternity and paternity leaves). It would be a lot more productive these tired SAHM vs. WOHM debates.

In my mind, there is no question that it’s best for babies and toddlers to spend the majority of their waking hours with a parent or grandparent. On the other hand, it shouldn’t require sacrificing one’s career (and ambition and mental capabilities) to do so.

Just stop with this nonsense.

Your extreme guilt is preventing you from admitting the obvious.

Loving, attentive caregivers is what an infant needs. Blood relation is not necessary.

[Anonymous]

Women are so evil to each other. Just because someone is doing something differently than you doesn’t mean one is right and the other is wrong. This is bizarre.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are middle grounds here. I work during school hours & early in the morning. It actually adds up to 40 hours, but I get to pick up my daughter. I realize I’m fortunate. Everyone should do what works for their specific family!!

+ 100. I am similar and feel like we should spend our time forcing companies to allow these kind of flexible roles (and to extend maternity and paternity leaves). It would be a lot more productive these tired SAHM vs. WOHM debates.

In my mind, there is no question that it’s best for babies and toddlers to spend the majority of their waking hours with a parent or grandparent. On the other hand, it shouldn’t require sacrificing one’s career (and ambition and mental capabilities) to do so.

Just stop with this nonsense.

Your extreme guilt is preventing you from admitting the obvious.

I'm a NP and no, this is not obvious. My MIL is a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks CIA is after our family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a slack (but very well paying) job that allows me to be home when my kids get home and leave when me kids leave for school. I never miss a swim class or ballet class. We have family dinners every night. (Husband works 95% from home)

We also make enough money to have a lot of added luxuries than if I didn’t work.

I enjoy my coworkers and even my boss.

No way I’m giving this up. Life is too good!

I have a flexible job, good pay, love my colleagues and the mission of my work. I also do not want to give any of that up, regardless of what happens in the current climate.

I'm extremely grateful for the blessings in my life, including work. But if something happens and we need to make changes or adapt, we will. And I like being home as well. If that is what ends up being our situation, we'll make the best of it and will enjoy the upsides.

I sincerely pray that everyone is safe, healthy, secure and prosperous going forward, no matter what your situation or what choices you make or need to make. Good luck, everyone!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have never met a SAHM who cares if anyone else works or not. The number of WOHMs here, however, that invent weird narratives about SAHMs who live pitiful existences and are miserably married is truly remarkable. No one accused you of anything, but the hostile attacks on SAHMs reeks of mom guilt.

+1. I see nastiness on both sides, but the vitriol from the working moms is on another level. Thinking sahms are worthless, don’t contribute to society, really? You have to have a deep sense of self hatred and raging jealousy to have such strong feelings about anyone else.

Nope, sorry, but you have blinders on. There is SO much vitriol from stay at home moms who accuse working moms of "abandoning their kids in daycares" and ask why they bothered to have kids at all. You sound like a fool for blaming one group more than the other.

I have been on both sides and it’s definitely nastier from WOH, 100%. UMC circle though where you don’t get a lot of SAHMs that don’t use housekeeper or preschool, so there’s not much of the “letting other people raise your kids” narrative since most use some form of childcare themselves and see the merits of it.

+ 1
I feel a rage in many WOH moms. It ranges from calling SAHMs worthless, submissive, anti-feminists, doormats to accusing them of "riding the gravy train". There are dire predictions that their DH's will leave them for a working woman, thereby leaving the SAHM and her kids destitute. Then on other forums they are crying about being devalued at work, being incompetent, having a boss from hell. They cry about hating their husband, sexual dysfunction, being attracted to others and husband cheating. They are unhappy about their messy homes or behaviour problems with their kids. THey are stressed out and bitchy when they have to function on the weekends in any social capacity. They are also very dismissive of other WOHMs - no sympathy for a new WOHM who is trying to pump or breastfeed at work for example. They are dismissive of other WOHMs who don't make enough money to outsource chores, and they are absolutely nasty to the other WOHMs who are cleaning their homes or looking after their children.

It is just RAGE, RAGE, RAGE...

I agree. I’ve always wondered why they get so triggered.

Like the PP who said something about meeting her kids at the door every day. It’s been quoted several times. If you are secure in your choice to work, why do you care that she thinks it’s a luxury worth paying for (in forgone she become) to greet her kids at the door?

Really, why do you care? I want to know. And don’t give me any crap about setting a bad example for her kids because that is dumb. Kids grow into adults who do what they want to do.

I wondered about this too. That came up several times and it seems like one of the more innocuous things a SAHM can say.

She literally said, I’ve been both but SAH is better for MY kids because xyz reasons. She wants to greet her kids at the door and take them to their activities. Who cares? What’s wrong with that? No grand pronouncements on how daycare is evil or working moms aren’t raising their kids.

Wow, you guys are dense. The issue isn't that she said working moms are bad. The issue, as multiple people noted, is that having the MOM do all the stuff is what some people want to model for their children. If that mom does, fine. But that doesn't mean that others aren't allowed to have other opinions. You're really twisting all the comments together and ignoring the fact that multiple people have commented in a single thread, so it's not like someone making a nasty comment somewhere down the line is saying the same thing as someone who commented upstream.

Just curious, do you give overweight parents a hard time about the unhealthy diet and exercise habits they’re modeling for their kids? Or the moms who overdo it on nightly wine consumption? If the answer is no, then ask yourself why you feel it’s any of your business to weigh in on other women’s employment choices.

+1 what a weird argument. My mom was SAHM my whole life and went back to work and eventually became a senior executive after I went to college. I never thought she was lazy or incapable of working. She took care of me and taught me to read and write; she was there for me after school and read books to me even as a teenager. She is very smart and I have a lot of respect for her. My DH and I decided early on that we did not want daycare for our children. It doesn’t make anyone else’s choices invalid. I’m not sure why all the hate in SAHMs here.

Well you don’t sound very bright, so there’s that.

Aw, you sound sad. I’m sure Bright Horizons loves your baby, don’t take it personally.

And we are sure your husband thinks you’re smart and ambitious. I’m sure you seem just as smart as the educated women he works with daily who spend time daily with working adults. You appear just as smart and have plenty to talk about. We promise!

Lol that you think that you’re smart because you work. You’re just a cog in the wheel, entirely insignificant and wholly replaceable. OTOH, if you actually liked and spent more time with your family, your brow beaten husband might post less often on the relationship forum about how his mistress is so much hotter and nicer than his wife.

Clearly I hit a nerve!!

This is every worker, including your husband. Also you’re sexist unless you also criticize your husband for not spending time with his family because he’s employed.

Anyway - for the most part, a woman who works IS going to come across as smarter and more interesting. Women who stay home have most of their network and activities revolving around their children. Women who work are out and about with other adults completely unrelated to their family or children. It’s a big world out there and most SAHMs have everything centered around their immediate family. It’s less interesting and is myopic. Dressing up and leaving your house most days to go and better yourself instead of just staying home and serving your family, makes you a more interesting person.

Lame response. I wouldn’t expect anything else from a drone though. Lmao that you agree that every worker is a cog in the wheel, yet dressing up(lol!) and going to work to your dispensable job is somehow bettering yourself. Today, we have knowledge about virtually everything at our fingertips and the freedom to work/learn/take care of household or a combination of these in any way we want. Your idea of a full life is what’s myopic and uninteresting.