Discussion Boundary Map out for APS- elementary schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d like to see 3 maps: Immersion moved to ATS, Carlin Springs and Barcroft. In the Immersion to ATS, move ATS to Barcrft and let’s see that map.

I'm still not getting how everyone cries "walkability" and you can't put a program in a highly walkable neighborhood school because we should be maximizing walkers and minimizing transportation costs, etc.; yet people keep pushing the idea of an option program at Barcroft - one of the most walkable schools.

Hypocrites.

Barcroft has a crazy high transfer rate without having any historical neighborhood preference or other weirdness that I know about other than being in the old Campbell attendance zone. I don't think it's an ideal option school location, but when 299 out of 679 (44%) in the attendance zone are opting out, perhaps it should be considered.

That is entirely irrelevant of the walkability issue. All it indicates is that even MORE students would/could be walking there than already do, which is a very large portion of the student body. It only has 3 buses - and that third bus was only added recently.

But if APS is paying to bus half the school around anyway, it won’t be a sea change for anyone. Option kids aren’t coming back, not even if they close the option schools (which they aren’t). Even if it’s walkable, if most of the people who could walk their kids there WON’T, what is the point? Does walkability matter so much? I don’t think it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So how are option schools not a luxury good then? We are basically paying for public schools for kids who would otherwise go private. That's not a good use of taxpayer dollars.

Personally, I think some of them would stay and pressure APS to fix the demographic mess it has. It ain't perfect. But it might help some.

To the people arguing that the options schools have the best mix, yes, that's true, they tend to be good yes. But they make the problems worse at the neighborhood schools. So is it worth it? Plus they cost more. I just don't see how we can afford them.

The bolded part is especially true. One of the NW schools has seen attrition as more families are leaving and moving to private. It helped get their numbers below 95% (without preschool). We need to get rid of public private school on the APS dime.

Well then maybe we should create public schools that everyone WANTS to go to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

Let me guess; you’re zoned one of the handful of integrated neighborhood schools. Not too rich, not too poor. Good for you. Too bad you would deny everyone that “luxury”.

Right. Because it's worth it to have option schools that we can no longer afford, that mess up all the neighborhood boundaries with all the high opt out rates, that increase our transportation costs, and that in many ways mask our underlying problems or let people ignore them, so that the most motivated parents who know how to play the system, can buy a house in a neighborhood where they wouldn't want their kid to go to school.

It's nice that ATS is a nice mix, but what is the cost to Drew, Randolph, Barcroft of letting many of the UMC opt out of those schools?

But like I said it doesn't matter because APS doesn't care about any of this.

I note you didn’t say which school you are zoned for. Sure hope it’s a 60%+ FRL school that your kids attend, since you’re calling for everyone else’s to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So how are option schools not a luxury good then? We are basically paying for public schools for kids who would otherwise go private. That's not a good use of taxpayer dollars.

Personally, I think some of them would stay and pressure APS to fix the demographic mess it has. It ain't perfect. But it might help some.

To the people arguing that the options schools have the best mix, yes, that's true, they tend to be good yes. But they make the problems worse at the neighborhood schools. So is it worth it? Plus they cost more. I just don't see how we can afford them.

The bolded part is especially true. One of the NW schools has seen attrition as more families are leaving and moving to private. It helped get their numbers below 95% (without preschool). We need to get rid of public private school on the APS dime.

Well then maybe we should create public schools that everyone WANTS to go to.

No. Families moving to private is good for the rest of us. How wonderful that we aren’t awake at knight wondering why we are sending our kids to such an overcrowded school!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

Let me guess; you’re zoned one of the handful of integrated neighborhood schools. Not too rich, not too poor. Good for you. Too bad you would deny everyone that “luxury”.

Right. Because it's worth it to have option schools that we can no longer afford, that mess up all the neighborhood boundaries with all the high opt out rates, that increase our transportation costs, and that in many ways mask our underlying problems or let people ignore them, so that the most motivated parents who know how to play the system, can buy a house in a neighborhood where they wouldn't want their kid to go to school.

It's nice that ATS is a nice mix, but what is the cost to Drew, Randolph, Barcroft of letting many of the UMC opt out of those schools?

But like I said it doesn't matter because APS doesn't care about any of this.

You seem to be under the impression that absent option schools, UMC families would be “forced” to attend high poverty schools that are organized around providing social services and would therefore balance the poverty rate. The reality is that all schools are choice schools and many people will move or go private if the option schools weren’t around anymore. Just look at Alexandria if you doubt me.

+1 I'm shaking my head at the twisted logic some of these anti-option school posters are using.

That’s because it’s not logic, it’s just punitive, spiteful blathering. It goes like this: “these tricky UMC cheaters, they’re buying houses at a discount in neighborhoods we wouldn’t visit, and getting better (option) schools than they deserve. We paid more for our house in a “better” zone; so deserve the better school we “paid” for.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So how are option schools not a luxury good then? We are basically paying for public schools for kids who would otherwise go private. That's not a good use of taxpayer dollars.

Personally, I think some of them would stay and pressure APS to fix the demographic mess it has. It ain't perfect. But it might help some.

To the people arguing that the options schools have the best mix, yes, that's true, they tend to be good yes. But they make the problems worse at the neighborhood schools. So is it worth it? Plus they cost more. I just don't see how we can afford them.

The bolded part is especially true. One of the NW schools has seen attrition as more families are leaving and moving to private. It helped get their numbers below 95% (without preschool). We need to get rid of public private school on the APS dime.

Well then maybe we should create public schools that everyone WANTS to go to.

No. Families moving to private is good for the rest of us. How wonderful that we aren’t awake at knight wondering why we are sending our kids to such an overcrowded school!

Yeah it’s working out great for Alexandria, isn’t it?

[Anonymous]

Ugh, you all. Find the middle ground. I agree that we should have public schools people want to go to. I agree in theory that option schools could be a tool to help with that. But it's also 100% clear that option schools in Arlington now just serve to give people an out from an "undesirable" neighborhood school.

It was eye-opening last year to see Drew's FARM rate go up 20% (or whatever) when they showed actual attendance vs. boundaries.

Plus the busing costs a ton. Plus when you have schools with super high opt out rates its impossible to predict attendance with high confidence. These are real problems, and large ones.

I think if we dumped option schools we probably could get all schools to under 50% FARMs. And that would be a really good thing for everyone. You might have to draw some weird boundaries, but at least you could, because you could predict where the kids actually were.

More importantly, it would make everyone invested in solving this. Will some people go private? Yes. And that's fine. But it won't be everyone.

And before you complain about others being "entitled" to the school they "paid for" think about how you are coming across as being "entitled" to anything other than a neighborhood school. Guess what? You aren't entitled to your option school any more than anyone else is entitled to go to their closest school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So how are option schools not a luxury good then? We are basically paying for public schools for kids who would otherwise go private. That's not a good use of taxpayer dollars.

Personally, I think some of them would stay and pressure APS to fix the demographic mess it has. It ain't perfect. But it might help some.

To the people arguing that the options schools have the best mix, yes, that's true, they tend to be good yes. But they make the problems worse at the neighborhood schools. So is it worth it? Plus they cost more. I just don't see how we can afford them.

The bolded part is especially true. One of the NW schools has seen attrition as more families are leaving and moving to private. It helped get their numbers below 95% (without preschool). We need to get rid of public private school on the APS dime.

Well then maybe we should create public schools that everyone WANTS to go to.

No. Families moving to private is good for the rest of us. How wonderful that we aren’t awake at knight wondering why we are sending our kids to such an overcrowded school!

Yeah it’s working out great for Alexandria, isn’t it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, you all. Find the middle ground. I agree that we should have public schools people want to go to. I agree in theory that option schools could be a tool to help with that. But it's also 100% clear that option schools in Arlington now just serve to give people an out from an "undesirable" neighborhood school.

It was eye-opening last year to see Drew's FARM rate go up 20% (or whatever) when they showed actual attendance vs. boundaries.

Plus the busing costs a ton. Plus when you have schools with super high opt out rates its impossible to predict attendance with high confidence. These are real problems, and large ones.

I think if we dumped option schools we probably could get all schools to under 50% FARMs. And that would be a really good thing for everyone. You might have to draw some weird boundaries, but at least you could, because you could predict where the kids actually were.

More importantly, it would make everyone invested in solving this. Will some people go private? Yes. And that's fine. But it won't be everyone.

And before you complain about others being "entitled" to the school they "paid for" think about how you are coming across as being "entitled" to anything other than a neighborhood school. Guess what? You aren't entitled to your option school any more than anyone else is entitled to go to their closest school.

Not without really “creative” boundaries. Drew’s actual fr/l rate hasn’t been publicized, but there was never a 20 point swing from the attendance zone vs. actually enrolled, it was 9 (66% vs. 57%).

The only school that moved down significantly and to 50/50 was Barcroft, and only with Alcova Heights included and with Gilliam Place going to Fleet; Randolph was about a 5% difference, Carlin Springs would be less. Barcroft is the outlier here.

The option schools aren’t making it any hard to draw economically balanced boundaries. Our County Board made it impossible. APS can’t draw anything approaching a neighborhood boundary and wind up with all schools in South Arlington at 50%. And it doesn’t matter because this isn’t what’s happening anyway. They aren’t going to do squat about segregation, so plan accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, you all. Find the middle ground. I agree that we should have public schools people want to go to. I agree in theory that option schools could be a tool to help with that. But it's also 100% clear that option schools in Arlington now just serve to give people an out from an "undesirable" neighborhood school.

It was eye-opening last year to see Drew's FARM rate go up 20% (or whatever) when they showed actual attendance vs. boundaries.

Plus the busing costs a ton. Plus when you have schools with super high opt out rates its impossible to predict attendance with high confidence. These are real problems, and large ones.

I think if we dumped option schools we probably could get all schools to under 50% FARMs. And that would be a really good thing for everyone. You might have to draw some weird boundaries, but at least you could, because you could predict where the kids actually were.

More importantly, it would make everyone invested in solving this. Will some people go private? Yes. And that's fine. But it won't be everyone.

And before you complain about others being "entitled" to the school they "paid for" think about how you are coming across as being "entitled" to anything other than a neighborhood school. Guess what? You aren't entitled to your option school any more than anyone else is entitled to go to their closest school.

Do you not realize that many people who are zoned to a "desirable" neighborhood school still choose option? ?

[Anonymous]

If we take option schools away, the UMC white families will not just automatically see the light, enroll in Barcroft and Randolph and magically balance the FARMS rates. They will move to private or move out of the neighborhood altogether to a zone with a "better" school.

People who think Arlington is the only place with this problem and that it's caused by option schools are terribly naive. This issue has existed for decades nationwide. No one has solved it. Busing was unfortunately a sad failure that led to white flight and arguably even weaker public schools due to the loss of those families from the system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If we take option schools away, the UMC white families will not just automatically see the light, enroll in Barcroft and Randolph and magically balance the FARMS rates. They will move to private or move out of the neighborhood altogether to a zone with a "better" school.

People who think Arlington is the only place with this problem and that it's caused by option schools are terribly naive. This issue has existed for decades nationwide. No one has solved it. Busing was unfortunately a sad failure that led to white flight and arguably even weaker public schools due to the loss of those families from the system.

The problems are with capitalism, private property, and resource hoarding by wealthy whites. It will take disruptive changes to make things better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we take option schools away, the UMC white families will not just automatically see the light, enroll in Barcroft and Randolph and magically balance the FARMS rates. They will move to private or move out of the neighborhood altogether to a zone with a "better" school.

People who think Arlington is the only place with this problem and that it's caused by option schools are terribly naive. This issue has existed for decades nationwide. No one has solved it. Busing was unfortunately a sad failure that led to white flight and arguably even weaker public schools due to the loss of those families from the system.

The problems are with capitalism, private property, and resource hoarding by wealthy whites. It will take disruptive changes to make things better.

Time for you to vote for Bernie I guess. Lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we take option schools away, the UMC white families will not just automatically see the light, enroll in Barcroft and Randolph and magically balance the FARMS rates. They will move to private or move out of the neighborhood altogether to a zone with a "better" school.

People who think Arlington is the only place with this problem and that it's caused by option schools are terribly naive. This issue has existed for decades nationwide. No one has solved it. Busing was unfortunately a sad failure that led to white flight and arguably even weaker public schools due to the loss of those families from the system.

The problems are with capitalism, private property, and resource hoarding by wealthy whites. It will take disruptive changes to make things better.

Time for you to vote for Bernie I guess. Lol.

Nope. Warren all the way. Ordered my action figure too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we take option schools away, the UMC white families will not just automatically see the light, enroll in Barcroft and Randolph and magically balance the FARMS rates. They will move to private or move out of the neighborhood altogether to a zone with a "better" school.

People who think Arlington is the only place with this problem and that it's caused by option schools are terribly naive. This issue has existed for decades nationwide. No one has solved it. Busing was unfortunately a sad failure that led to white flight and arguably even weaker public schools due to the loss of those families from the system.

.
The problems are with capitalism, private property, and resource hoarding by wealthy whites. It will take disruptive changes to make things better.

Time for you to vote for Bernie I guess. Lol.

Nope. Warren all the way. Ordered my action figure too.

I'm sure she'll be all over the Arlington boundaries. Just the same as she has a plan for taxing wealth and medicare for all. Totes gonna happen.