Discussion Boundary Map out for APS- elementary schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

DP and 100% with you on all counts. Including, sadly, the last point.

[Anonymous]

You can have successful immersion without 50% native speakers. Yes, it'd be nice if they could fill more of the native Spanish speaker spots, but APS is in a tricky position with that. They can't basically push one option school to a certain segment of the population without getting into some very tricky waters.

If we have ANY option schools, they should be language immersion. Which is a real skill that kids carry with them their whole lives. I understand the other options have wonderful programs, but if we are cutting options, the one that provides a track through high school to become a life long skill should not be at the top of the list.

But I do agree the boundaries for the neighborhood schools should be done first, then figure out the best spots for the option schools. I realize they won't do this because they don't want to move all the choice schools, but it would be one way to balance things county wide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can have successful immersion without 50% native speakers. Yes, it'd be nice if they could fill more of the native Spanish speaker spots, but APS is in a tricky position with that. They can't basically push one option school to a certain segment of the population without getting into some very tricky waters.

If we have ANY option schools, they should be language immersion. Which is a real skill that kids carry with them their whole lives. I understand the other options have wonderful programs, but if we are cutting options, the one that provides a track through high school to become a life long skill should not be at the top of the list.

But I do agree the boundaries for the neighborhood schools should be done first, then figure out the best spots for the option schools. I realize they won't do this because they don't want to move all the choice schools, but it would be one way to balance things county wide.

Absolutely nobody is talking about cutting immersion. Just possibly moving the location, and possibly admitting fewer English speakers until the 50/50 ratio is restored.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

Let me guess; you’re zoned one of the handful of integrated neighborhood schools. Not too rich, not too poor. Good for you. Too bad you would deny everyone that “luxury”.

Right. Because it's worth it to have option schools that we can no longer afford, that mess up all the neighborhood boundaries with all the high opt out rates, that increase our transportation costs, and that in many ways mask our underlying problems or let people ignore them, so that the most motivated parents who know how to play the system, can buy a house in a neighborhood where they wouldn't want their kid to go to school.

It's nice that ATS is a nice mix, but what is the cost to Drew, Randolph, Barcroft of letting many of the UMC opt out of those schools?

But like I said it doesn't matter because APS doesn't care about any of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

I don’t really agree with this point. The option schools are the ones that most closely match the overall demographics of APS. The immersions schools need to be better at getting the 50/50 immersion balance right. But the changes to admission policies and intentional placement of VPI classrooms has yielded fairly balanced option schools.

The aggressively racist housing policy of the last century, and a refusal to course correct, has made balanced neighborhood schools nearly impossible. They can only nibble at the edges there, which I do think they should do even if it results in ugly maps and some kids riding a bus for 20 minutes instead of 10. But until the county completely changes zoning codes to allow multifamily in many new areas (ADUs aren’t going to do sh**), segregated neighborhoods will result in segregated neighborhood schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

Let me guess; you’re zoned one of the handful of integrated neighborhood schools. Not too rich, not too poor. Good for you. Too bad you would deny everyone that “luxury”.

Right. Because it's worth it to have option schools that we can no longer afford, that mess up all the neighborhood boundaries with all the high opt out rates, that increase our transportation costs, and that in many ways mask our underlying problems or let people ignore them, so that the most motivated parents who know how to play the system, can buy a house in a neighborhood where they wouldn't want their kid to go to school.

It's nice that ATS is a nice mix, but what is the cost to Drew, Randolph, Barcroft of letting many of the UMC opt out of those schools?

But like I said it doesn't matter because APS doesn't care about any of this.

The families who opt out to ATS aren’t likely to enroll at Drew, Randolph, Barcroft. OSL and STM aren’t that pricey. They have options, even if you take the free ones away. Know who doesn’t? It’s not the wealthy families.

[Anonymous]

So how are option schools not a luxury good then? We are basically paying for public schools for kids who would otherwise go private. That's not a good use of taxpayer dollars.

Personally, I think some of them would stay and pressure APS to fix the demographic mess it has. It ain't perfect. But it might help some.

To the people arguing that the options schools have the best mix, yes, that's true, they tend to be good yes. But they make the problems worse at the neighborhood schools. So is it worth it? Plus they cost more. I just don't see how we can afford them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So how are option schools not a luxury good then? We are basically paying for public schools for kids who would otherwise go private. That's not a good use of taxpayer dollars.

Personally, I think some of them would stay and pressure APS to fix the demographic mess it has. It ain't perfect. But it might help some.

To the people arguing that the options schools have the best mix, yes, that's true, they tend to be good yes. But they make the problems worse at the neighborhood schools. So is it worth it? Plus they cost more. I just don't see how we can afford them.

The bolded part is especially true. One of the NW schools has seen attrition as more families are leaving and moving to private. It helped get their numbers below 95% (without preschool). We need to get rid of public private school on the APS dime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

Let me guess; you’re zoned one of the handful of integrated neighborhood schools. Not too rich, not too poor. Good for you. Too bad you would deny everyone that “luxury”.

Right. Because it's worth it to have option schools that we can no longer afford, that mess up all the neighborhood boundaries with all the high opt out rates, that increase our transportation costs, and that in many ways mask our underlying problems or let people ignore them, so that the most motivated parents who know how to play the system, can buy a house in a neighborhood where they wouldn't want their kid to go to school.

It's nice that ATS is a nice mix, but what is the cost to Drew, Randolph, Barcroft of letting many of the UMC opt out of those schools?

But like I said it doesn't matter because APS doesn't care about any of this.

You seem to be under the impression that absent option schools, UMC families would be “forced” to attend high poverty schools that are organized around providing social services and would therefore balance the poverty rate. The reality is that all schools are choice schools and many people will move or go private if the option schools weren’t around anymore. Just look at Alexandria if you doubt me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

Let me guess; you’re zoned one of the handful of integrated neighborhood schools. Not too rich, not too poor. Good for you. Too bad you would deny everyone that “luxury”.

Right. Because it's worth it to have option schools that we can no longer afford, that mess up all the neighborhood boundaries with all the high opt out rates, that increase our transportation costs, and that in many ways mask our underlying problems or let people ignore them, so that the most motivated parents who know how to play the system, can buy a house in a neighborhood where they wouldn't want their kid to go to school.

It's nice that ATS is a nice mix, but what is the cost to Drew, Randolph, Barcroft of letting many of the UMC opt out of those schools?

But like I said it doesn't matter because APS doesn't care about any of this.

You seem to be under the impression that absent option schools, UMC families would be “forced” to attend high poverty schools that are organized around providing social services and would therefore balance the poverty rate. The reality is that all schools are choice schools and many people will move or go private if the option schools weren’t around anymore. Just look at Alexandria if you doubt me.

Moreover, SA as a whole is 50 percent FRl and rising with every CAF that gets built. If we had completely equitable school boundaries, and no option programs, every single school would be title 1. It’s literally the “best” we can do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: I think option schools should go away. I feel like they are a relic of the past and don't make sense with our current enrollment issues.

I don't think option schools should ever get new buildings (I'm looking at you, HB). They should be the ones that rely on older facilities and trailers b/c the families who send their kids there had a choice.

IF we have to have option schools, they should also be in areas with the lowest enrollment, assuming there are other schools nearby that can pick up the slack. Building capacity matters, but total student body size has a significant impact on the school. Since neighborhood schools can't turn people away, they should, unfortunately, be the ones with greatest capacity (all those 700+ seat schools).

Again, I think option schools should go away, but I realize that argument is never going to get me anywhere.

+1 I'm with you actually. Option schools are a relic of APS being a rich system. They are a luxury good. The only benefit I see to them is helping to spread demographics, but they would need to be done intentionally, which it's not. Right now they are mainly an escape valve for parents to avoid certain schools -- both schools that are too rich and schools that are too poor.

I think we need to start at the middle school level and create balanced schools with good demographics. Then we create feeder patterns of elem. schools into those middle schools. You can't get each elem. school balanced, but we can try to do somewhat better. Then we give the poorer schools extra resources. At the same time, we pay a lot of attention to county housing policies and put a stop to building affordable housing in the areas that already have poor schools. That's the best solution I can think of, and it doesn't matter, because we still won't do anything.

Let me guess; you’re zoned one of the handful of integrated neighborhood schools. Not too rich, not too poor. Good for you. Too bad you would deny everyone that “luxury”.

Right. Because it's worth it to have option schools that we can no longer afford, that mess up all the neighborhood boundaries with all the high opt out rates, that increase our transportation costs, and that in many ways mask our underlying problems or let people ignore them, so that the most motivated parents who know how to play the system, can buy a house in a neighborhood where they wouldn't want their kid to go to school.

It's nice that ATS is a nice mix, but what is the cost to Drew, Randolph, Barcroft of letting many of the UMC opt out of those schools?

But like I said it doesn't matter because APS doesn't care about any of this.

You seem to be under the impression that absent option schools, UMC families would be “forced” to attend high poverty schools that are organized around providing social services and would therefore balance the poverty rate. The reality is that all schools are choice schools and many people will move or go private if the option schools weren’t around anymore. Just look at Alexandria if you doubt me.

+1 I'm shaking my head at the twisted logic some of these anti-option school posters are using.

[Anonymous]

Look, even without option schools, some schools would still be above 50 FRL. Randolph, Barcroft and Carlin Springs simply do not have enough middle class SFHs in their boundaries to make much of a difference. Maybe go from 80-60FRL, but is that much better.

And Campbell is an option school at about 60% FRL. It went down to 50% for one year when an additional class was added, but it will never be much less than 60% because it has many VPI classrooms who are guaranteed admission in K.

[Anonymous]

Debating whether APS should have option schools is perhaps a fun thought experiment for future generations of kids, but the current generation will soon be choosing from the offerings put forth in the IPP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d like to see 3 maps: Immersion moved to ATS, Carlin Springs and Barcroft. In the Immersion to ATS, move ATS to Barcrft and let’s see that map.

I'm still not getting how everyone cries "walkability" and you can't put a program in a highly walkable neighborhood school because we should be maximizing walkers and minimizing transportation costs, etc.; yet people keep pushing the idea of an option program at Barcroft - one of the most walkable schools.

Hypocrites.

Barcroft has a crazy high transfer rate without having any historical neighborhood preference or other weirdness that I know about other than being in the old Campbell attendance zone. I don't think it's an ideal option school location, but when 299 out of 679 (44%) in the attendance zone are opting out, perhaps it should be considered.

That is entirely irrelevant of the walkability issue. All it indicates is that even MORE students would/could be walking there than already do, which is a very large portion of the student body. It only has 3 buses - and that third bus was only added recently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look, even without option schools, some schools would still be above 50 FRL. Randolph, Barcroft and Carlin Springs simply do not have enough middle class SFHs in their boundaries to make much of a difference. Maybe go from 80-60FRL, but is that much better.

And Campbell is an option school at about 60% FRL. It went down to 50% for one year when an additional class was added, but it will never be much less than 60% because it has many VPI classrooms who are guaranteed admission in K.

I don't think 60% is acceptable when the overall rate of the student population is almost half that. Nevertheless, 60% IS indeed significantly better than 70-80%.