Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at all. You wish for us to think that way so you can continue to perpetuate hatred and divisiveness. Islam permits Muslim men to marry Jews and Christians. If their religions don't require head covering, and they are whores as a result as viewed by our God, why would marriage to whored be permitted?

But the rationale for this undermines the point you're trying to make. In marriage the man is in charge, so the non-Muslim wife's "erroneous" beliefs about religion or sexuality won't play a role the family's values. The corollary to this is that Muslim women aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim men--he has to convert or the marriage doesn't take place.

Anyway, a PP all but said that many Western women are STD-ridden teen moms. This thinking is certainly out there. Why? My guess is that easy defenses are made from easy stereotypes.

You said we Muslims perceive them (unveiled Jews/Christisans) as whores. Yes or no, is this not what you asserted? So why would our God permit marriages to such terrible whores? And in fact, in Islam the man married to a Jew or Christian must permit his wife to freely practice her faith. If her faith has whore practices, why would our God say its okay? I await your answer.

Get past the American STD defensive attack and address THIS point, because the American STD argument wasn't even brought up until page 23 and after repeated refusal to acknowledge that many women actually PREFER to wear hijab.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at all. You wish for us to think that way so you can continue to perpetuate hatred and divisiveness. Islam permits Muslim men to marry Jews and Christians. If their religions don't require head covering, and they are whores as a result as viewed by our God, why would marriage to whored be permitted?

But the rationale for this undermines the point you're trying to make. In marriage the man is in charge, so the non-Muslim wife's "erroneous" beliefs about religion or sexuality won't play a role the family's values. The corollary to this is that Muslim women aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim men--he has to convert or the marriage doesn't take place.

Anyway, a PP all but said that many Western women are STD-ridden teen moms. This thinking is certainly out there. Why? My guess is that easy defenses are made from easy stereotypes.

You said we Muslims perceive them (unveiled Jews/Christisans) as whores. Yes or no, is this not what you asserted? So why would our God permit marriages to such terrible whores? And in fact, in Islam the man married to a Jew or Christian must permit his wife to freely practice her faith. If her faith has whore practices, why would our God say its okay? I await your answer.

Get past the American STD defensive attack and address THIS point, because the American STD argument wasn't even brought up until page 23 and after repeated refusal to acknowledge that many women actually PREFER to wear hijab.

I believe you brought up the HYPOTHETICAL no head coverings = whores point. Obviously, this is not the case as there are hundreds of millions of very respectable Muslim women who do not wear head coverings and Muslim men marry them with nary a thought of whoredom.

I think I would drop the Muslim men can marry Jews and Christians (Zoroastrians for that matter)--who are free to practice their religion-- line of argumentation. This is true as far as it goes. But they are not entitled to inheritance from their Muslim husbands, and their children are not free to become anything other than Muslims. Also, as has been pointed out several times, Muslim women are not free to marry men of other religions.

[Anonymous]

Was it you who wrote this?

"Wearing the hijab is a choice....a choice to tell the rest of the world that you think women that don't wear one are whores."

This is absolutely false on several counts. Many women who choose to wear hijab don't wear it to let others know they aren't whores. They wear it for modesty.

They also don't assume all nonMuslim women are "whores." Lack of modesty can absolutely lead to sexually free behavior (we know this to be true), but it doesn't follow that women who lack modesty always engage in sexually free behavior. And the evidence for that is that Islam permits Muslim men to marry unveiled Jewish or Christian women.

I don't have the time or the inclination to teach you LSAT prep reasoning skills.

The bottom line is that women who PREFER to wear hijab should not be constantly scrutinized and made to feel like naive, dimwitted, or gullible. Why can't you see how offensive that is?

Once you go down that path, you should be ready to face scrutiny for your own western attire and the unfortunate behaviors that may result.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Was it you who wrote this?

"Wearing the hijab is a choice....a choice to tell the rest of the world that you think women that don't wear one are whores."

This is absolutely false on several counts. Many women who choose to wear hijab don't wear it to let others know they aren't whores. They wear it for modesty.

They also don't assume all nonMuslim women are "whores." Lack of modesty can absolutely lead to sexually free behavior (we know this to be true), but it doesn't follow that women who lack modesty always engage in sexually free behavior. And the evidence for that is that Islam permits Muslim men to marry unveiled Jewish or Christian women.

I don't have the time or the inclination to teach you LSAT prep reasoning skills.

The bottom line is that women who PREFER to wear hijab should not be constantly scrutinized and made to feel like naive, dimwitted, or gullible. Why can't you see how offensive that is?

Once you go down that path, you should be ready to face scrutiny for your own western attire and the unfortunate behaviors that may result.

New to this portion of the thread: Clothes send lots of signals, positive and negative, conscious and subconscious. Changing clothes can change the signals, which some people do with purpose. We individually and as a society judge men and women according to the clothes and the signals they send. You are free to judge me and my clothes and extrapolate any real or imagined unfortunate behaviors I might engage in, and I am free to do likewise. I may or may not be aware of what you think when you see and judge me, and I might be hurt or offended if you judge me negatively. The same is true, the other way around. That's how it works, living in society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Was it you who wrote this?

"Wearing the hijab is a choice....a choice to tell the rest of the world that you think women that don't wear one are whores."

This is absolutely false on several counts. Many women who choose to wear hijab don't wear it to let others know they aren't whores. They wear it for modesty.

They also don't assume all nonMuslim women are "whores." Lack of modesty can absolutely lead to sexually free behavior (we know this to be true), but it doesn't follow that women who lack modesty always engage in sexually free behavior. And the evidence for that is that Islam permits Muslim men to marry unveiled Jewish or Christian women.

I don't have the time or the inclination to teach you LSAT prep reasoning skills.

The bottom line is that women who PREFER to wear hijab should not be constantly scrutinized and made to feel like naive, dimwitted, or gullible. Why can't you see how offensive that is?

Once you go down that path, you should be ready to face scrutiny for your own western attire and the unfortunate behaviors that may result.

Unfortunately, people will judge you on your appearance. If you do something people think is stupid, they will think you are stupid. As this board has revealed, a lot of women think the hijab in not really legitimate and is the product of misguided piety. Sorry. I invite you to think whatever you like about my wardrobe. I doubt many women who read this board wear clothing that is terribly sexually provocative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Was it you who wrote this?

"Wearing the hijab is a choice....a choice to tell the rest of the world that you think women that don't wear one are whores."

This is absolutely false on several counts. Many women who choose to wear hijab don't wear it to let others know they aren't whores. They wear it for modesty.

They also don't assume all nonMuslim women are "whores." Lack of modesty can absolutely lead to sexually free behavior (we know this to be true), but it doesn't follow that women who lack modesty always engage in sexually free behavior. And the evidence for that is that Islam permits Muslim men to marry unveiled Jewish or Christian women.

I don't have the time or the inclination to teach you LSAT prep reasoning skills.

The bottom line is that women who PREFER to wear hijab should not be constantly scrutinized and made to feel like naive, dimwitted, or gullible. Why can't you see how offensive that is?

Once you go down that path, you should be ready to face scrutiny for your own western attire and the unfortunate behaviors that may result.

New to this portion of the thread: Clothes send lots of signals, positive and negative, conscious and subconscious. Changing clothes can change the signals, which some people do with purpose. We individually and as a society judge men and women according to the clothes and the signals they send. You are free to judge me and my clothes and extrapolate any real or imagined unfortunate behaviors I might engage in, and I am free to do likewise. I may or may not be aware of what you think when you see and judge me, and I might be hurt or offended if you judge me negatively. The same is true, the other way around. That's how it works, living in society.

Way to go to in diversity acceptance.

[Anonymous]

How ironic that I, as a Muslim that hails from a country with backward laws oppressing women needs to instruct you on diversity acceptance. Smh

[Anonymous]

I am a Muslim woman who posted a few days ago. I agree with a lot of you that this is really an interesting thread. It has made me think of my own values vis a vis Hijab. As a liberal Muslim, I sometimes feel that I need to defend myself on two fronts: 1) from the Donald Trump types of the world who perpetuate bigotry based on no understanding of Muslims and the Muslim world; and 2) against the Wahabi inspired extremism that has taken hold among a lot of people in Muslims. I had posted earlier that I certainly defend the right of those to wear it. I recently had a conversation with a woman who had worn one despite the objections of her parents. For her it was a highly personal decision and she saw it as away to be closer to God. I certainly respected her decision. None the less, I am highly uncomfortable with the hijab (not to mention the veil ) for many of the reasons mentioned by other posters.

One other thought, I have travelled a lot for both business and pleasure over my lifetime. The only places where I have been stared at, leared at, felt objectified, etc.. are Muslim majority countries where I have been modestly dressed with my head covered. To me, women don't need to cover up in order to be treated respectfully, it is instead the men that need to change.

[Anonymous]

PP, I am a Muslim woman who doesn't wear hijab, either. I respect a Muslim woman's choice. Hijab is truly a decision between a woman and her Creator.

However, it is important that other parties, many of them non Muslim, many of them who loathe Islam, particularly in these times when Islamophobia is rampant, many of them who hate any aspect of Islamic life that strongly and observably diverges from western lifestyle, not scrutinize or ridicule our personal choice.

What vested goal and interest do they have to imply women, who do choose to wear hijab, are gullible, oppressed, and naive? The goal is in shaming hijabi women until they adopt a more western style of clothing. The interest is in diluting the faith and practice of Islam.

Now, it may be true that some Muslim countries require hijab for women. It may also be true that some women in such countries do not wish to wear hijab. I agree, hijab should not be forced upon any woman. After all, the Quran says clearyl, "Let there be no compulsion in religion."

That said, some rules and necessary for the governance of a moral society. The vast majority of Muslims do not want a society where individuals are free to dress any way they like even if that means wearing tiny shorts, bikinis, or short skirts. The vast majority of Muslims also do not desire a society where there is free and unfettered sexual expression between unmarried people. The vast majority of Muslims do not want a society that says porn should be legal. Muslims do not want these and these views are in accordance with Islam.

Modesty in dress and behavior is an important part of Islam. It is absolutely connected to piety, because it is hard to achieve piety when one absolutely has no modesty. Hijab is not clearly mentioned in the Quran, however. As such, it should be left up to the individual. However, if the woman is styling her hair so as to make it attractive, particularly to men, this is contrary to Islam's expectation of modesty.

I, too, have traveled to Muslim countries over my lifetime. I've been to moderate Muslim countries, such as Jordan, as well as very strict Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia. I recall being leered at once in Saudi Arabia also. What causes these Muslim men to leer? Is the religion of Islam to blame? Or is the culture to blame? It's the culture. It is never the religion. Remember that Arab society still has many remnants of pre-Islamic tribal culture that have been mixed with their practice of Islam and also confused with it.

Are Muslim countries the only place where men have stared or leered at me? Of course not. I have been gawked at, approached, and harassed in this country all through my teens, twenties, and thirties. I'm in my forties now and relieved that it's no longer an issue for me.

Probably the worst gawking and harassment I've ever endured was in non Muslim, South Asian countries as I went shopping with my family. I was told it was because I clearly looked and dressed like a foreigner. I tried to fit in by wearing the same style of clothing the women wore there, but people there could tell I looked American.

The point is -- to say that hijab should be a reminder to men (and women) to avoid the sin of gazing does not mean that it's absence should invite disrespectful treatment. Of course men should exercise self control also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at all. You wish for us to think that way so you can continue to perpetuate hatred and divisiveness. Islam permits Muslim men to marry Jews and Christians. If their religions don't require head covering, and they are whores as a result as viewed by our God, why would marriage to whored be permitted?

But the rationale for this undermines the point you're trying to make. In marriage the man is in charge, so the non-Muslim wife's "erroneous" beliefs about religion or sexuality won't play a role the family's values. The corollary to this is that Muslim women aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim men--he has to convert or the marriage doesn't take place.

Anyway, a PP all but said that many Western women are STD-ridden teen moms. This thinking is certainly out there. Why? My guess is that easy defenses are made from easy stereotypes.

You said we Muslims perceive them (unveiled Jews/Christisans) as whores. Yes or no, is this not what you asserted? So why would our God permit marriages to such terrible whores? And in fact, in Islam the man married to a Jew or Christian must permit his wife to freely practice her faith. If her faith has whore practices, why would our God say its okay? I await your answer.

Get past the American STD defensive attack and address THIS point, because the American STD argument wasn't even brought up until page 23 and after repeated refusal to acknowledge that many women actually PREFER to wear hijab.

I believe you brought up the HYPOTHETICAL no head coverings = whores point. Obviously, this is not the case as there are hundreds of millions of very respectable Muslim women who do not wear head coverings and Muslim men marry them with nary a thought of whoredom.

I think I would drop the Muslim men can marry Jews and Christians (Zoroastrians for that matter)--who are free to practice their religion-- line of argumentation. This is true as far as it goes. But they are not entitled to inheritance from their Muslim husbands, and their children are not free to become anything other than Muslims. Also, as has been pointed out several times, Muslim women are not free to marry men of other religions.

I'm the poster being responded to and I agree with PP. A Muslim, nobody else, first mentioned the supposed link between Western women, promiscuity, STDs and teen pregnancy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, I am a Muslim woman who doesn't wear hijab, either. I respect a Muslim woman's choice. Hijab is truly a decision between a woman and her Creator.

However, it is important that other parties, many of them non Muslim, many of them who loathe Islam, particularly in these times when Islamophobia is rampant, many of them who hate any aspect of Islamic life that strongly and observably diverges from western lifestyle, not scrutinize or ridicule our personal choice.

What vested goal and interest do they have to imply women, who do choose to wear hijab, are gullible, oppressed, and naive? The goal is in shaming hijabi women until they adopt a more western style of clothing. The interest is in diluting the faith and practice of Islam.

Now, it may be true that some Muslim countries require hijab for women. It may also be true that some women in such countries do not wish to wear hijab. I agree, hijab should not be forced upon any woman. After all, the Quran says clearyl, "Let there be no compulsion in religion."

That said, some rules and necessary for the governance of a moral society. The vast majority of Muslims do not want a society where individuals are free to dress any way they like even if that means wearing tiny shorts, bikinis, or short skirts. The vast majority of Muslims also do not desire a society where there is free and unfettered sexual expression between unmarried people. The vast majority of Muslims do not want a society that says porn should be legal. Muslims do not want these and these views are in accordance with Islam.

Modesty in dress and behavior is an important part of Islam. It is absolutely connected to piety, because it is hard to achieve piety when one absolutely has no modesty. Hijab is not clearly mentioned in the Quran, however. As such, it should be left up to the individual. However, if the woman is styling her hair so as to make it attractive, particularly to men, this is contrary to Islam's expectation of modesty.

I, too, have traveled to Muslim countries over my lifetime. I've been to moderate Muslim countries, such as Jordan, as well as very strict Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia. I recall being leered at once in Saudi Arabia also. What causes these Muslim men to leer? Is the religion of Islam to blame? Or is the culture to blame? It's the culture. It is never the religion. Remember that Arab society still has many remnants of pre-Islamic tribal culture that have been mixed with their practice of Islam and also confused with it.

Are Muslim countries the only place where men have stared or leered at me? Of course not. I have been gawked at, approached, and harassed in this country all through my teens, twenties, and thirties. I'm in my forties now and relieved that it's no longer an issue for me.

Probably the worst gawking and harassment I've ever endured was in non Muslim, South Asian countries as I went shopping with my family. I was told it was because I clearly looked and dressed like a foreigner. I tried to fit in by wearing the same style of clothing the women wore there, but people there could tell I looked American.

The point is -- to say that hijab should be a reminder to men (and women) to avoid the sin of gazing does not mean that it's absence should invite disrespectful treatment. Of course men should exercise self control also.

Thank you for the thoughtful explanation. It's clear you've given the veil a lot of thought and feel passionately about other women's right to wear it. As do I!

We disagree, however, on the cultural message it sends.

I continue to wonder that placing the onus for chastity on woman (men don't veil, just lower their eyes) effectively absolved men from responsibility, and that's why they don't bother try to control the leering. These attitudes, whether or not they're cultural, seem underscored by women's lesser legal rights in the areas of inheritance, divorce, and witness testimony. Some will argue that these rights aren't "lesser" when viewed in the context of "equal but different responsibilities" for the house as contrasted to men's responsibility for bringing in income. But don't you think the impact is the same, to cause some men to think that women don't have a rightful place in the working and outside worlds?

When you say above that I style my hair "attractively" to "attract men," is that cultural? There are so many other possible assumptions you could have made--that I want to look professional, that I do it for other women or for myself--so that your assumption that I do it for random men on the metro or at work is offensive. It's a step from saying uncovered women have STDs, as an earlier Muslim poster said, but it's on the continuum. Given that we seem to agree that the veil is not always necessary, is this a cultural bias you share?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, I am a Muslim woman who doesn't wear hijab, either. I respect a Muslim woman's choice. Hijab is truly a decision between a woman and her Creator.

However, it is important that other parties, many of them non Muslim, many of them who loathe Islam, particularly in these times when Islamophobia is rampant, many of them who hate any aspect of Islamic life that strongly and observably diverges from western lifestyle, not scrutinize or ridicule our personal choice.

What vested goal and interest do they have to imply women, who do choose to wear hijab, are gullible, oppressed, and naive? The goal is in shaming hijabi women until they adopt a more western style of clothing. The interest is in diluting the faith and practice of Islam.

Have you ever asked yourself why this purported interest in diluting the faith and practice is directed only against Islam? Why is no one trying to dilute the practices of kipa- and wig-wearing Jewish people? Why is no one trying to dilute the practices of sari-clad Indian women? Sikhs? Why do you think the West has this particular feeling only for Muslims? Might it have something to do with what the West thinks Muslims are like? Why do Muslims enjoy such a reputation in the West?

Anonymous wrote:
Now, it may be true that some Muslim countries require hijab for women. It may also be true that some women in such countries do not wish to wear hijab. I agree, hijab should not be forced upon any woman. After all, the Quran says clearyl, "Let there be no compulsion in religion."

That said, some rules and necessary for the governance of a moral society. The vast majority of Muslims do not want a society where individuals are free to dress any way they like even if that means wearing tiny shorts, bikinis, or short skirts. The vast majority of Muslims also do not desire a society where there is free and unfettered sexual expression between unmarried people. The vast majority of Muslims do not want a society that says porn should be legal. Muslims do not want these and these views are in accordance with Islam.

You don't know the vast majority of Muslims, you haven't spoken to them, you don't speak FOR them, and the above is your opinion, not fact. No one knows what the vast majority of Muslims want or do not want.

Anonymous wrote:
I, too, have traveled to Muslim countries over my lifetime. I've been to moderate Muslim countries, such as Jordan, as well as very strict Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia. I recall being leered at once in Saudi Arabia also. What causes these Muslim men to leer? Is the religion of Islam to blame? Or is the culture to blame? It's the culture. It is never the religion. Remember that Arab society still has many remnants of pre-Islamic tribal culture that have been mixed with their practice of Islam and also confused with it.

If the religion clearly connects modest dress to piety, then the religion clearly connects the lack of modest dress (as defined by the religion) to the lack of piety.

Anonymous wrote:
Are Muslim countries the only place where men have stared or leered at me? Of course not. I have been gawked at, approached, and harassed in this country all through my teens, twenties, and thirties. I'm in my forties now and relieved that it's no longer an issue for me.

This country has no religiously embraced expectation that you WON'T be gawked at or approached, while Muslim-majority countries clearly SHOULD have this expectation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Was it you who wrote this?

"Wearing the hijab is a choice....a choice to tell the rest of the world that you think women that don't wear one are whores."

This is absolutely false on several counts. Many women who choose to wear hijab don't wear it to let others know they aren't whores. They wear it for modesty.

They also don't assume all nonMuslim women are "whores." Lack of modesty can absolutely lead to sexually free behavior (we know this to be true), but it doesn't follow that women who lack modesty always engage in sexually free behavior. And the evidence for that is that Islam permits Muslim men to marry unveiled Jewish or Christian women.

I don't have the time or the inclination to teach you LSAT prep reasoning skills.

The bottom line is that women who PREFER to wear hijab should not be constantly scrutinized and made to feel like naive, dimwitted, or gullible. Why can't you see how offensive that is?

Once you go down that path, you should be ready to face scrutiny for your own western attire and the unfortunate behaviors that may result.

There is nothing to say that women who don't wear hijabs are immodest, nor that the hijab is the ONLY way to express modesty in dress.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab is a choice....a choice to tell the rest of the world that you think women that don't wear one are whores.

That's ridiculous. Are your clothing choices about what YOU want, or about the rest of the world?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at all. You wish for us to think that way so you can continue to perpetuate hatred and divisiveness. Islam permits Muslim men to marry Jews and Christians. If their religions don't require head covering, and they are whores as a result as viewed by our God, why would marriage to whored be permitted?

But the rationale for this undermines the point you're trying to make. In marriage the man is in charge, so the non-Muslim wife's "erroneous" beliefs about religion or sexuality won't play a role the family's values. The corollary to this is that Muslim women aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim men--he has to convert or the marriage doesn't take place.

Anyway, a PP all but said that many Western women are STD-ridden teen moms. This thinking is certainly out there. Why? My guess is that easy defenses are made from easy stereotypes.

You said we Muslims perceive them (unveiled Jews/Christisans) as whores. Yes or no, is this not what you asserted? So why would our God permit marriages to such terrible whores? And in fact, in Islam the man married to a Jew or Christian must permit his wife to freely practice her faith. If her faith has whore practices, why would our God say its okay? I await your answer.

Get past the American STD defensive attack and address THIS point, because the American STD argument wasn't even brought up until page 23 and after repeated refusal to acknowledge that many women actually PREFER to wear hijab.

I believe you brought up the HYPOTHETICAL no head coverings = whores point. Obviously, this is not the case as there are hundreds of millions of very respectable Muslim women who do not wear head coverings and Muslim men marry them with nary a thought of whoredom.

I think I would drop the Muslim men can marry Jews and Christians (Zoroastrians for that matter)--who are free to practice their religion-- line of argumentation. This is true as far as it goes. But they are not entitled to inheritance from their Muslim husbands, and their children are not free to become anything other than Muslims. Also, as has been pointed out several times, Muslim women are not free to marry men of other religions.

No child (or person) is free to become anything other than Muslim in Islam, so let's not pretend that it's limited to children of non-Muslim women.

Inheritance is easy to work around.

No Abrahamic religion actually encourages outmarriage. In fact, Islam seems the only one of the three that has clear rules about outmarriage. Judaism and Christianity, as far as I know, scripturally do not permit outmarriage at all. Why pick on Islam?