Drag Queen Story Hours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

Not all acting is appropriation that creates a caricature of a traditionally marginalized and oppressed group, representing that group via stereotypes that have been used to perpetuate their oppression.

+1

The “I guess NOBODY CAN ACT NOW” temper tantrum is just so tiresome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

Not all acting is appropriation that creates a caricature of a traditionally marginalized and oppressed group, representing that group via stereotypes that have been used to perpetuate their oppression.

+1

The “I guess NOBODY CAN ACT NOW” temper tantrum is just so tiresome.

Again then, women who dress this way, say Dolly Parton or Madonna or hell, Carmen Miranda--are you arguing that they are (were) helping to continue the oppression of women? They should just disappear then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

Not all acting is appropriation that creates a caricature of a traditionally marginalized and oppressed group, representing that group via stereotypes that have been used to perpetuate their oppression.

+1

The “I guess NOBODY CAN ACT NOW” temper tantrum is just so tiresome.

Again then, women who dress this way, say Dolly Parton or Madonna or hell, Carmen Miranda--are you arguing that they are (were) helping to continue the oppression of women? They should just disappear then?

NP. "women who dress this way" is a dog whistle. You're actually categorizing women by their outfits instead of viewing them as real people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

Not all acting is appropriation that creates a caricature of a traditionally marginalized and oppressed group, representing that group via stereotypes that have been used to perpetuate their oppression.

+1

The “I guess NOBODY CAN ACT NOW” temper tantrum is just so tiresome.

Again then, women who dress this way, say Dolly Parton or Madonna or hell, Carmen Miranda--are you arguing that they are (were) helping to continue the oppression of women? They should just disappear then?

The difference is that these are women dressing how they choose to dress. They are not mimicking any other group. How do you not understand it is not the outfits, it is men taking and mimicking women.

[Anonymous]

Dolley Parton, etc. are off the hook, because they're part of the group that is being caricatured, patronized, or ridiculed. If you're a member of the group, you can, for instance, make jokes about them that would be offensive from an outsider. Sometimes you can use terms that would be offensive from someone who's not a member of the group. Think, for instance, of "hillbilly" or "redneck" jokes. If you don't see the problem, read Barbara Kingsolver's Demon Copperhead

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just something else to do. Always looking for new things to do on the weekends - mainly for me because I think my kid would be fine going to the same park forever, but I need some new kid-friendly experiences mixed in.

Would you be ok if your child asked your husband to dress up and put make up next time they want a bed time story. I’m sorry but it is weird.

If you ate rigid a d uptight perhaps. Kids love dress up. Why is that considered a female thing? There is nothing but culture stopping men from dressing up and wearing makeup. Go watch Herdsman oaf the Sun about the Wodaabe people.

[Anonymous]

Let’s not give this thread anymore oxygen?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as it is all voluntary and appropriately advertised, then I don’t see the problem.

If people want to take their kids to this, that’s okay. If people don’t want to take their kids, that’s okay too. What is not okay is if people are not provided options to decide for themselves.

So I would not be a fan of the public library just advertising a “story hour” and you would not be able to know if it was or was not a “drag queen story hour”.

It is important to distinguish this from just a trans person reading stories, which is different because a “drag queen” is a specific persona and in effect a costume.

That's an interesting point. But the library wouldn't need to disclose in advance that Elsa or Alice in Wonderland might show up at story time. Why is that, do you think? What is it about the persona of a Drag Queen that differentiates it from just any fictional female character? Could it be that they are males who are pantomiming female sexuality, and those personas exist to entertain adult patrons in adult spaces regarding sexual themes?

A drag performer is traditionally a cisgender gay man. Some trans people as well as cisgender women do drag now as well. The thing that some people that aren't familiar with drag don't seem to understand is that a drag queen is a character putting on a performance.

A trans woman normally takes hormones which changes the shape of her body/face and make her grow breasts as well as a host of other things that happen on estrogen. There are a lot of possible surgeries that trans women can get. Some get all, some get none. Trans women live their entire lives as women. Sometimes you'll see a really cringy looking trans woman but that's usually early in transition. After a few years, most have the goal of just blending in as best as they can because they just want to live a normal life like they did before. But now as a woman because that matches how they felt inside.

When a drag queen takes off the costume, he's a man under it. A trans woman looks like (or does her best to look like) and lives as a woman all the time.

If you are a cisgender man portraying a caricature of women to children, this is helpful exactly…how? These story times are being branded as a way to promote acceptance. The proponents of drag queen story time can’t seem to agree on who exactly the drag queens are and what are their purpose at a story time is. You all might want to tighten up your story.

I'm not a cisgender man that does drag. I'm a trans woman. I've never once done a drag performance nor do I have any desire to do so. I have no problem watching drag or taking my children to a DQ Story Hour though. It's literally just a man in a dress reading a kid's book.

It's more than that though. You can't just divorce drag from its history and context as a sexualized performative caricature of females by and for adult males, and claim it's for kids now. Just like you can't host a minstrel story hour and claim it's just a guy in a costume reading a book.

Pervert. This is not sexualized.

This wig is amazing. I love it so much.

omg she is fabulous, that's amazing

And what would you say to an actual older woman who showed up to kids story hour dressed like that, with that hair and makeup? Still just fine? You’d happily hand your kids to her?

"YOU GO GIRL!!!"

That would be wonderful.

I'm not a girly girl at all, don't wear makeup, do very little with my straight hair, don't do my nails or wear heels, wear very little jewelry. But I love costumes on other people. I'm imagining a character from Lemony Snicket!! Did you watch the amazing series on Netflix with Neil Patrick Harris? OMG I LOVED those costumes. So fantastic.

[Anonymous]

So y’all would be cool if white ppl started wearing sombreros and carrying maracas and speaking with a Spanish accent. Just good fun?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dolley Parton, etc. are off the hook, because they're part of the group that is being caricatured, patronized, or ridiculed. If you're a member of the group, you can, for instance, make jokes about them that would be offensive from an outsider. Sometimes you can use terms that would be offensive from someone who's not a member of the group. Think, for instance, of "hillbilly" or "redneck" jokes. If you don't see the problem, read Barbara Kingsolver's Demon Copperhead

I think a lot of the drag supporters regularly make redneck jokes. They won’t see that as a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So y’all would be cool if white ppl started wearing sombreros and carrying maracas and speaking with a Spanish accent. Just good fun?

Idk, I’m not Mexican so I’m not going to speak for Mexicans. But I am a woman and drag doesn’t bother me. I think it’s a fun expression of femininity and challenge of what gender means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So y’all would be cool if white ppl started wearing sombreros and carrying maracas and speaking with a Spanish accent. Just good fun?

Idk, I’m not Mexican so I’m not going to speak for Mexicans. But I am a woman and drag doesn’t bother me. I think it’s a fun expression of femininity and challenge of what gender means.

It’s an interesting comparison because this is something where there is a generational divide. In my extended Latino/Hispanic family/friends, the older generation is more likely to think the sombreros and maracas (never fake accent though) are harmless fun. The younger folks meanwhile are horrified by it and consider sombreros and maracas to be racist minstrelry. All are united on not mocking accents. It’s not uniform but generally speaking it breaks down on generational lines.

I tend to think drag is millennial and older thing. Gen Z just isn’t as into it. If you go to drag shows now, it’s an old audience. Honestly I think this is one of the motivators of DQSH. But I think drag will probably eventually just fade away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

Not all acting is appropriation that creates a caricature of a traditionally marginalized and oppressed group, representing that group via stereotypes that have been used to perpetuate their oppression.

+1

The “I guess NOBODY CAN ACT NOW” temper tantrum is just so tiresome.

Again then, women who dress this way, say Dolly Parton or Madonna or hell, Carmen Miranda--are you arguing that they are (were) helping to continue the oppression of women? They should just disappear then?

NP. "women who dress this way" is a dog whistle. You're actually categorizing women by their outfits instead of viewing them as real people.

The drag queen reading the book a few pages back was wearing a dress and a sweater. I'm not sure I would describe her costume as overly sexual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So y’all would be cool if white ppl started wearing sombreros and carrying maracas and speaking with a Spanish accent. Just good fun?

You mean Cinco de Mayo?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

Not all acting is appropriation that creates a caricature of a traditionally marginalized and oppressed group, representing that group via stereotypes that have been used to perpetuate their oppression.

+1

The “I guess NOBODY CAN ACT NOW” temper tantrum is just so tiresome.

Again then, women who dress this way, say Dolly Parton or Madonna or hell, Carmen Miranda--are you arguing that they are (were) helping to continue the oppression of women? They should just disappear then?

NP. "women who dress this way" is a dog whistle. You're actually categorizing women by their outfits instead of viewing them as real people.

The drag queen reading the book a few pages back was wearing a dress and a sweater. I'm not sure I would describe her costume as overly sexual.

Any male who wears fake breasts is by definition appropriating female physical secondary sexual characteristics. You may not describe her costume as overtly sexual but it is.