Drag Queen Story Hours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

You think a man who dresses like a drag queen on a day to day basis would not also be harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned?

Not like women are, no. I mean they are celebrated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

You think a man who dresses like a drag queen on a day to day basis would not also be harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned?

Not like women are, no. I mean they are celebrated.

So you think a man going into work or walking down the street in drag would be celebrated, but a woman in the same clothes and makeup would be harassed? What reality do you live in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

Do you find male actors who perform women's parts in kabuki problematic? What about British pantomines? Or woman playing male characters in Takurazuka revue? Or any performance of As You Like It?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

You think a man who dresses like a drag queen on a day to day basis would not also be harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned?

Not like women are, no. I mean they are celebrated.

So you think a man going into work or walking down the street in drag would be celebrated, but a woman in the same clothes and makeup would be harassed? What reality do you live in?

The one where men worry about being laughed at, and women worry about being raped and killed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

You think a man who dresses like a drag queen on a day to day basis would not also be harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned?

Not like women are, no. I mean they are celebrated.

So you think a man going into work or walking down the street in drag would be celebrated, but a woman in the same clothes and makeup would be harassed? What reality do you live in?

The one where men worry about being laughed at, and women worry about being raped and killed.

That's a good bumper sticker, but doesn't really apply here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

You think a man who dresses like a drag queen on a day to day basis would not also be harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned?

Not like women are, no. I mean they are celebrated.

So you think a man going into work or walking down the street in drag would be celebrated, but a woman in the same clothes and makeup would be harassed? What reality do you live in?

The one where men worry about being laughed at, and women worry about being raped and killed.

Wait, just a second ago you were saying the man would be celebrated. Are you walking that back now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as it is all voluntary and appropriately advertised, then I don’t see the problem.

If people want to take their kids to this, that’s okay. If people don’t want to take their kids, that’s okay too. What is not okay is if people are not provided options to decide for themselves.

So I would not be a fan of the public library just advertising a “story hour” and you would not be able to know if it was or was not a “drag queen story hour”.

It is important to distinguish this from just a trans person reading stories, which is different because a “drag queen” is a specific persona and in effect a costume.

That's an interesting point. But the library wouldn't need to disclose in advance that Elsa or Alice in Wonderland might show up at story time. Why is that, do you think? What is it about the persona of a Drag Queen that differentiates it from just any fictional female character? Could it be that they are males who are pantomiming female sexuality, and those personas exist to entertain adult patrons in adult spaces regarding sexual themes?

A drag performer is traditionally a cisgender gay man. Some trans people as well as cisgender women do drag now as well. The thing that some people that aren't familiar with drag don't seem to understand is that a drag queen is a character putting on a performance.

A trans woman normally takes hormones which changes the shape of her body/face and make her grow breasts as well as a host of other things that happen on estrogen. There are a lot of possible surgeries that trans women can get. Some get all, some get none. Trans women live their entire lives as women. Sometimes you'll see a really cringy looking trans woman but that's usually early in transition. After a few years, most have the goal of just blending in as best as they can because they just want to live a normal life like they did before. But now as a woman because that matches how they felt inside.

When a drag queen takes off the costume, he's a man under it. A trans woman looks like (or does her best to look like) and lives as a woman all the time.

If you are a cisgender man portraying a caricature of women to children, this is helpful exactly…how? These story times are being branded as a way to promote acceptance. The proponents of drag queen story time can’t seem to agree on who exactly the drag queens are and what are their purpose at a story time is. You all might want to tighten up your story.

I'm not a cisgender man that does drag. I'm a trans woman. I've never once done a drag performance nor do I have any desire to do so. I have no problem watching drag or taking my children to a DQ Story Hour though. It's literally just a man in a dress reading a kid's book.

It's more than that though. You can't just divorce drag from its history and context as a sexualized performative caricature of females by and for adult males, and claim it's for kids now. Just like you can't host a minstrel story hour and claim it's just a guy in a costume reading a book.

Pervert. This is not sexualized.

He/she wasn't saying that the story time is secualized but rather how it all started certainly was. Reading comprehension!

+1000

If it’s not sexualized then why are so many panties in a bunch?

Because of homophobia/transphobia? Anti-LGBT people think of the LGBT community and only think sex.

I have no dog in this fight and wouldn't necessarily not take my kid to a DGSH. But can we please stop with calling people homophobes and transphobes when they disagree with you and/or have a different view or comfort level. I certainly don't think everything in the gay or trans community is sexualized, but have you been to a drag show? I have many times. It was a great time and would go again, but to say it is not sexualized is just stupid. Not saying that a kid story hour would be, but I can hear other's opinions without assuming the worst about them.

Except the people who have ginned up all of this stuff about drag queen story hour are not, and have not been, acting in good faith. They've just decided that today, they target the drag queens = and they've built a frothing mob as they've done it. None of them are dumb enough or sheltered enough to believe the things they're saying - and that now they've got other people parroting. They are political opportunists who think that this is the issue that'll win them power - who cares how stupid and craven.

Typical that you assume all people who disagree with you are incapable of reaching their own conclusions.

I thought drag was misogynist and was reading feminist literature about sexism in drag in the mid-2000s. There is a long history of feminist discussion on this topic, but I suspect you don’t actually care what women think.

Oh for gd's sake. I read Dworkin like every other feminist in the 90s. Of course I care what women think.

The thing is that the people harping on the allegely feminist critique of drag queen story hour - and just fk all of this nonsense for even making me write these words - may believe what they're saying, but it sure sounds like they're just looking for what they believe to be the left wing gotcha point here. And it's just stupid. It's just stupid.

The right wingers are craven opportunists. The people pretending to be left wingers should pick better company.

Shorter version: “Women, just shut up.”

NP. No. Your interpretation of that perhaps. You are set on an agenda. That’s fine. But it’s exactly your opinion. It doesn’t not belong to this feminist.

Then that PP should have no problem with people disagreeing with her, but she seems to have serious problems accepting that people disagree with her.

Let’s face it: she wants people who think DQSH is misogynist and sexist to shut up. If she didn’t, she would be okay with disagreement. But she obviously isn’t okay with disagreements.

The misogynist poster wants to run this conversation. They really aren’t leaving space for any other viewpoint. Including parents who are responding to the original post. This is off the rails.

don't mess with people trying to defend their turf

You misspelled "terf."

Just use the b-word. That’s what you really mean.

Not really. Terfs are more angry, misguided, scared and cruel -- the b-word doesn't really cover it.

Oh, got it, so you like using two misogynist slurs, not just one. Of course. I should have predicted that.

PP, you really need to stop calling "arguments I don't like" and "words that hurt my fee-fees" misogynist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

Not all acting is appropriation that creates a caricature of a traditionally marginalized and oppressed group, representing that group via stereotypes that have been used to perpetuate their oppression.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

Then I repeat my question from earlier---is it okay for male performers like Harry Styles and Billy Porter to take on feminine tropes in their dress and performance? That must be an appropriation and reinterpretation as well?

Or NPH playing a womanizer? Isn't he appropriating straight identity and reinterpreting it?

Or if we just stick to stage performances--what about all the burlesque shows where there are cross gender/sex performances from both men and women?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

You think a man who dresses like a drag queen on a day to day basis would not also be harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned?

Not like women are, no. I mean they are celebrated.

On stage?How do you think that goes over in most of America on the street?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as it is all voluntary and appropriately advertised, then I don’t see the problem.

If people want to take their kids to this, that’s okay. If people don’t want to take their kids, that’s okay too. What is not okay is if people are not provided options to decide for themselves.

So I would not be a fan of the public library just advertising a “story hour” and you would not be able to know if it was or was not a “drag queen story hour”.

It is important to distinguish this from just a trans person reading stories, which is different because a “drag queen” is a specific persona and in effect a costume.

That's an interesting point. But the library wouldn't need to disclose in advance that Elsa or Alice in Wonderland might show up at story time. Why is that, do you think? What is it about the persona of a Drag Queen that differentiates it from just any fictional female character? Could it be that they are males who are pantomiming female sexuality, and those personas exist to entertain adult patrons in adult spaces regarding sexual themes?

A drag performer is traditionally a cisgender gay man. Some trans people as well as cisgender women do drag now as well. The thing that some people that aren't familiar with drag don't seem to understand is that a drag queen is a character putting on a performance.

A trans woman normally takes hormones which changes the shape of her body/face and make her grow breasts as well as a host of other things that happen on estrogen. There are a lot of possible surgeries that trans women can get. Some get all, some get none. Trans women live their entire lives as women. Sometimes you'll see a really cringy looking trans woman but that's usually early in transition. After a few years, most have the goal of just blending in as best as they can because they just want to live a normal life like they did before. But now as a woman because that matches how they felt inside.

When a drag queen takes off the costume, he's a man under it. A trans woman looks like (or does her best to look like) and lives as a woman all the time.

If you are a cisgender man portraying a caricature of women to children, this is helpful exactly…how? These story times are being branded as a way to promote acceptance. The proponents of drag queen story time can’t seem to agree on who exactly the drag queens are and what are their purpose at a story time is. You all might want to tighten up your story.

I'm not a cisgender man that does drag. I'm a trans woman. I've never once done a drag performance nor do I have any desire to do so. I have no problem watching drag or taking my children to a DQ Story Hour though. It's literally just a man in a dress reading a kid's book.

It's more than that though. You can't just divorce drag from its history and context as a sexualized performative caricature of females by and for adult males, and claim it's for kids now. Just like you can't host a minstrel story hour and claim it's just a guy in a costume reading a book.

Pervert. This is not sexualized.

He/she wasn't saying that the story time is secualized but rather how it all started certainly was. Reading comprehension!

+1000

If it’s not sexualized then why are so many panties in a bunch?

Because of homophobia/transphobia? Anti-LGBT people think of the LGBT community and only think sex.

I have no dog in this fight and wouldn't necessarily not take my kid to a DGSH. But can we please stop with calling people homophobes and transphobes when they disagree with you and/or have a different view or comfort level. I certainly don't think everything in the gay or trans community is sexualized, but have you been to a drag show? I have many times. It was a great time and would go again, but to say it is not sexualized is just stupid. Not saying that a kid story hour would be, but I can hear other's opinions without assuming the worst about them.

Except the people who have ginned up all of this stuff about drag queen story hour are not, and have not been, acting in good faith. They've just decided that today, they target the drag queens = and they've built a frothing mob as they've done it. None of them are dumb enough or sheltered enough to believe the things they're saying - and that now they've got other people parroting. They are political opportunists who think that this is the issue that'll win them power - who cares how stupid and craven.

Typical that you assume all people who disagree with you are incapable of reaching their own conclusions.

I thought drag was misogynist and was reading feminist literature about sexism in drag in the mid-2000s. There is a long history of feminist discussion on this topic, but I suspect you don’t actually care what women think.

Oh for gd's sake. I read Dworkin like every other feminist in the 90s. Of course I care what women think.

The thing is that the people harping on the allegely feminist critique of drag queen story hour - and just fk all of this nonsense for even making me write these words - may believe what they're saying, but it sure sounds like they're just looking for what they believe to be the left wing gotcha point here. And it's just stupid. It's just stupid.

The right wingers are craven opportunists. The people pretending to be left wingers should pick better company.

Shorter version: “Women, just shut up.”

NP. No. Your interpretation of that perhaps. You are set on an agenda. That’s fine. But it’s exactly your opinion. It doesn’t not belong to this feminist.

Then that PP should have no problem with people disagreeing with her, but she seems to have serious problems accepting that people disagree with her.

Let’s face it: she wants people who think DQSH is misogynist and sexist to shut up. If she didn’t, she would be okay with disagreement. But she obviously isn’t okay with disagreements.

The misogynist poster wants to run this conversation. They really aren’t leaving space for any other viewpoint. Including parents who are responding to the original post. This is off the rails.

don't mess with people trying to defend their turf

You misspelled "terf."

Just use the b-word. That’s what you really mean.

Not really. Terfs are more angry, misguided, scared and cruel -- the b-word doesn't really cover it.

Oh, got it, so you like using two misogynist slurs, not just one. Of course. I should have predicted that.

PP, you really need to stop calling "arguments I don't like" and "words that hurt my fee-fees" misogynist.

You think the b-word and the t-word are acceptable ways to refer to women. I know all I need to know about you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.

By this standard, all performance and acting is offensive.

How so?

All acting is a performative reinterpretation

Not all acting is appropriation that creates a caricature of a traditionally marginalized and oppressed group, representing that group via stereotypes that have been used to perpetuate their oppression.

As I tell my writing students, that's a whole lotta words for saying a whole lotta nothing. If real women dress and act as drag queens, how is it representing stereotypes rather than celebrating one kind of woman? Or are you the gatekeeper for the kind of women who should be represented on stage?