Drag Queen Story Hours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as it is all voluntary and appropriately advertised, then I don’t see the problem.

If people want to take their kids to this, that’s okay. If people don’t want to take their kids, that’s okay too. What is not okay is if people are not provided options to decide for themselves.

So I would not be a fan of the public library just advertising a “story hour” and you would not be able to know if it was or was not a “drag queen story hour”.

It is important to distinguish this from just a trans person reading stories, which is different because a “drag queen” is a specific persona and in effect a costume.

That's an interesting point. But the library wouldn't need to disclose in advance that Elsa or Alice in Wonderland might show up at story time. Why is that, do you think? What is it about the persona of a Drag Queen that differentiates it from just any fictional female character? Could it be that they are males who are pantomiming female sexuality, and those personas exist to entertain adult patrons in adult spaces regarding sexual themes?

A drag performer is traditionally a cisgender gay man. Some trans people as well as cisgender women do drag now as well. The thing that some people that aren't familiar with drag don't seem to understand is that a drag queen is a character putting on a performance.

A trans woman normally takes hormones which changes the shape of her body/face and make her grow breasts as well as a host of other things that happen on estrogen. There are a lot of possible surgeries that trans women can get. Some get all, some get none. Trans women live their entire lives as women. Sometimes you'll see a really cringy looking trans woman but that's usually early in transition. After a few years, most have the goal of just blending in as best as they can because they just want to live a normal life like they did before. But now as a woman because that matches how they felt inside.

When a drag queen takes off the costume, he's a man under it. A trans woman looks like (or does her best to look like) and lives as a woman all the time.

If you are a cisgender man portraying a caricature of women to children, this is helpful exactly…how? These story times are being branded as a way to promote acceptance. The proponents of drag queen story time can’t seem to agree on who exactly the drag queens are and what are their purpose at a story time is. You all might want to tighten up your story.

I'm not a cisgender man that does drag. I'm a trans woman. I've never once done a drag performance nor do I have any desire to do so. I have no problem watching drag or taking my children to a DQ Story Hour though. It's literally just a man in a dress reading a kid's book.

It's more than that though. You can't just divorce drag from its history and context as a sexualized performative caricature of females by and for adult males, and claim it's for kids now. Just like you can't host a minstrel story hour and claim it's just a guy in a costume reading a book.

I think if I want to take my kids to a book reading, I should be able to. If you don't want me to, that's not your prerogative.

Sure. And we can point out how you are taking your kids to a book reading that relies on the vast systemic and historic oppression of women for “entertainment.”

I am going to keep asking this until someone answers with more than just saying "I feel this way.":


No one has explained how drag shows where performers dance to Cher, Beyonce, and Dolly is misogyny. Saying it is isn't evidence or an argument.

Keep in mine drag queens love these performers because they are naturally over the top feminine. Does that mean Dolly, Cher, and Bey are also misogynists and unworthy of feminist consideration? ETA; and they are propagating systemic and historic oppression of women?
Or--is it maybe just people using feminism in the most venal way possible as a cloak for their bigotry?

Appropriating and performing "female" is different than being a female who is a performer. In the case of the female performers, female is their identity. But drag queen isn't actually an identity, it is a performance. Can you not see the difference?

So when gay actors perform straight stereotypical, but exaggerated straight roles, like say, Neil Patrick Harris playing womanizing Barney Stinson, is that appropriation? After all, being straight isn't NPH's identity?

How about Dustin Hoffman playing Tootsie, or Robin Williams playing Mrs. Doubtfire, both of them playing men playing to stereotypes of uptight, straight-laced women?

Or how about black actors playing roles in Hamilton, or white-as Mel Gibson playing Christ, or etc etc?

If it is okay for Dolly and Bey and Cher to be Dolly and Bey and Cher, why can't men perform as them as performers have been doing for forever--by playing NOT their identities.

What about straight actors playing over-the-top gay characters? Is that okay? What about white actors pretending to be black people with exaggerated, stereotypical tropes? Isn't everything okay because acting?

False analogies. Take a logic class. But I'll try to spell it out for you.

If BEING Bey, Cher, and Dolly, or overtly feminine isn't offensive, as a couple of anti-drag posters said, playing those characters isn't offensive.
If you are playing an offensive gay or black characters in a club, that would be uncool. Playing them in a movie as a thoughtful role--not offensive.
But don't deflect--answer the questions above and the PP's examples of harry styles et al.

So you believe that blackface is okay, as long as it's not "offensive"?[/quote]

I'm not Black so I don't get to have an opinion on blackface; it doesn't injure me. My Black friends uniformly find it offensive so I take their word for it.

I'm also a cis woman who doesn't find drag offensive or harmful. So I guess the problem here is that the group that is in theory being injured have mixed opinions on the subject. Some of us think it's benign and enjoyable entertainment (me); others find it sexist and misogynist (you).

Nice attempt at a gotcha, but you didn't say blackface. You said "pretending to be black with stereotypical tropes" or something similar. Blackface is offensive. And you and other keep deflecting. Your whole argument stems from the notion that people like Dolly are OFFENSIVE< therefore, it is offensive to act like them.

Which is poppyock.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as it is all voluntary and appropriately advertised, then I don’t see the problem.

If people want to take their kids to this, that’s okay. If people don’t want to take their kids, that’s okay too. What is not okay is if people are not provided options to decide for themselves.

So I would not be a fan of the public library just advertising a “story hour” and you would not be able to know if it was or was not a “drag queen story hour”.

It is important to distinguish this from just a trans person reading stories, which is different because a “drag queen” is a specific persona and in effect a costume.

That's an interesting point. But the library wouldn't need to disclose in advance that Elsa or Alice in Wonderland might show up at story time. Why is that, do you think? What is it about the persona of a Drag Queen that differentiates it from just any fictional female character? Could it be that they are males who are pantomiming female sexuality, and those personas exist to entertain adult patrons in adult spaces regarding sexual themes?

A drag performer is traditionally a cisgender gay man. Some trans people as well as cisgender women do drag now as well. The thing that some people that aren't familiar with drag don't seem to understand is that a drag queen is a character putting on a performance.

A trans woman normally takes hormones which changes the shape of her body/face and make her grow breasts as well as a host of other things that happen on estrogen. There are a lot of possible surgeries that trans women can get. Some get all, some get none. Trans women live their entire lives as women. Sometimes you'll see a really cringy looking trans woman but that's usually early in transition. After a few years, most have the goal of just blending in as best as they can because they just want to live a normal life like they did before. But now as a woman because that matches how they felt inside.

When a drag queen takes off the costume, he's a man under it. A trans woman looks like (or does her best to look like) and lives as a woman all the time.

If you are a cisgender man portraying a caricature of women to children, this is helpful exactly…how? These story times are being branded as a way to promote acceptance. The proponents of drag queen story time can’t seem to agree on who exactly the drag queens are and what are their purpose at a story time is. You all might want to tighten up your story.

I'm not a cisgender man that does drag. I'm a trans woman. I've never once done a drag performance nor do I have any desire to do so. I have no problem watching drag or taking my children to a DQ Story Hour though. It's literally just a man in a dress reading a kid's book.

It's more than that though. You can't just divorce drag from its history and context as a sexualized performative caricature of females by and for adult males, and claim it's for kids now. Just like you can't host a minstrel story hour and claim it's just a guy in a costume reading a book.

I think if I want to take my kids to a book reading, I should be able to. If you don't want me to, that's not your prerogative.

Sure. And we can point out how you are taking your kids to a book reading that relies on the vast systemic and historic oppression of women for “entertainment.”

I am going to keep asking this until someone answers with more than just saying "I feel this way.":


No one has explained how drag shows where performers dance to Cher, Beyonce, and Dolly is misogyny. Saying it is isn't evidence or an argument.

Keep in mine drag queens love these performers because they are naturally over the top feminine. Does that mean Dolly, Cher, and Bey are also misogynists and unworthy of feminist consideration? ETA; and they are propagating systemic and historic oppression of women?
Or--is it maybe just people using feminism in the most venal way possible as a cloak for their bigotry?

Appropriating and performing "female" is different than being a female who is a performer. In the case of the female performers, female is their identity. But drag queen isn't actually an identity, it is a performance. Can you not see the difference?

So when gay actors perform straight stereotypical, but exaggerated straight roles, like say, Neil Patrick Harris playing womanizing Barney Stinson, is that appropriation? After all, being straight isn't NPH's identity?

How about Dustin Hoffman playing Tootsie, or Robin Williams playing Mrs. Doubtfire, both of them playing men playing to stereotypes of uptight, straight-laced women?

Or how about black actors playing roles in Hamilton, or white-as Mel Gibson playing Christ, or etc etc?

If it is okay for Dolly and Bey and Cher to be Dolly and Bey and Cher, why can't men perform as them as performers have been doing for forever--by playing NOT their identities.

What about straight actors playing over-the-top gay characters? Is that okay? What about white actors pretending to be black people with exaggerated, stereotypical tropes? Isn't everything okay because acting?

False analogies. Take a logic class. But I'll try to spell it out for you.

If BEING Bey, Cher, and Dolly, or overtly feminine isn't offensive, as a couple of anti-drag posters said, playing those characters isn't offensive.
If you are playing an offensive gay or black characters in a club, that would be uncool. Playing them in a movie as a thoughtful role--not offensive.
But don't deflect--answer the questions above and the PP's examples of harry styles et al.

So you believe that blackface is okay, as long as it's not "offensive"?[/quote]

I'm not Black so I don't get to have an opinion on blackface; it doesn't injure me. My Black friends uniformly find it offensive so I take their word for it.

I'm also a cis woman who doesn't find drag offensive or harmful. So I guess the problem here is that the group that is in theory being injured have mixed opinions on the subject. Some of us think it's benign and enjoyable entertainment (me); others find it sexist and misogynist (you).

Nice attempt at a gotcha, but you didn't say blackface. You said "pretending to be black with stereotypical tropes" or something similar. Blackface is offensive. And you and other keep deflecting. Your whole argument stems from the notion that people like Dolly are OFFENSIVE< therefore, it is offensive to act like them.

Which is poppyock.

Seriously. Come tell me that Dolly's persona is offensive and I will throw hands.

[Anonymous]

NP. Middle ground take in the "is drag misogynistic" derailment: not inherently, but can be. I don't have a problem with performers dressing up as women. I have, however, seen some shows that leave a bad taste because they play up a sort "I'm just a dumb helpless woman" trope or some other negative stereotype of women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as it is all voluntary and appropriately advertised, then I don’t see the problem.

If people want to take their kids to this, that’s okay. If people don’t want to take their kids, that’s okay too. What is not okay is if people are not provided options to decide for themselves.

So I would not be a fan of the public library just advertising a “story hour” and you would not be able to know if it was or was not a “drag queen story hour”.

It is important to distinguish this from just a trans person reading stories, which is different because a “drag queen” is a specific persona and in effect a costume.

That's an interesting point. But the library wouldn't need to disclose in advance that Elsa or Alice in Wonderland might show up at story time. Why is that, do you think? What is it about the persona of a Drag Queen that differentiates it from just any fictional female character? Could it be that they are males who are pantomiming female sexuality, and those personas exist to entertain adult patrons in adult spaces regarding sexual themes?

A drag performer is traditionally a cisgender gay man. Some trans people as well as cisgender women do drag now as well. The thing that some people that aren't familiar with drag don't seem to understand is that a drag queen is a character putting on a performance.

A trans woman normally takes hormones which changes the shape of her body/face and make her grow breasts as well as a host of other things that happen on estrogen. There are a lot of possible surgeries that trans women can get. Some get all, some get none. Trans women live their entire lives as women. Sometimes you'll see a really cringy looking trans woman but that's usually early in transition. After a few years, most have the goal of just blending in as best as they can because they just want to live a normal life like they did before. But now as a woman because that matches how they felt inside.

When a drag queen takes off the costume, he's a man under it. A trans woman looks like (or does her best to look like) and lives as a woman all the time.

If you are a cisgender man portraying a caricature of women to children, this is helpful exactly…how? These story times are being branded as a way to promote acceptance. The proponents of drag queen story time can’t seem to agree on who exactly the drag queens are and what are their purpose at a story time is. You all might want to tighten up your story.

I'm not a cisgender man that does drag. I'm a trans woman. I've never once done a drag performance nor do I have any desire to do so. I have no problem watching drag or taking my children to a DQ Story Hour though. It's literally just a man in a dress reading a kid's book.

It's more than that though. You can't just divorce drag from its history and context as a sexualized performative caricature of females by and for adult males, and claim it's for kids now. Just like you can't host a minstrel story hour and claim it's just a guy in a costume reading a book.

Pervert. This is not sexualized.

He/she wasn't saying that the story time is secualized but rather how it all started certainly was. Reading comprehension!

+1000

If it’s not sexualized then why are so many panties in a bunch?

Because of homophobia/transphobia? Anti-LGBT people think of the LGBT community and only think sex.

Bingo

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. Middle ground take in the "is drag misogynistic" derailment: not inherently, but can be. I don't have a problem with performers dressing up as women. I have, however, seen some shows that leave a bad taste because they play up a sort "I'm just a dumb helpless woman" trope or some other negative stereotype of women.

True but that's not inherent to drag. That's just...people in drag being a$$holes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

They are paraded around on FoxNews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

That's true regardless of whether or not women dress the way that drag queens do. It's not connected to that particular style.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

This is a fair point.

But OTOH, I wouldn't bring my kid to burlesque story hour either. For the same reasons - its unnecessary and rooted in adult entertainment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

This is a fair point.

But OTOH, I wouldn't bring my kid to burlesque story hour either. For the same reasons - its unnecessary and rooted in adult entertainment.

Luckily, no one is advocating for mandatory drag queen story hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

EXACTLY. And cis women who are dressed the same way drag queens do are not ridiculed or minimized -- in fact, they're often lionized.

And they are far more often victimized for it. They pay a price for it. Women are harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned. Men adopt that as a costume, then discard the costume. That’s sexist privilege that men doing drag avail themselves of, without any acknowledgment that is what they are doing.

You think a man who dresses like a drag queen on a day to day basis would not also be harassed, subject to derision, professionally penalized, and sometimes shunned?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as it is all voluntary and appropriately advertised, then I don’t see the problem.

If people want to take their kids to this, that’s okay. If people don’t want to take their kids, that’s okay too. What is not okay is if people are not provided options to decide for themselves.

So I would not be a fan of the public library just advertising a “story hour” and you would not be able to know if it was or was not a “drag queen story hour”.

It is important to distinguish this from just a trans person reading stories, which is different because a “drag queen” is a specific persona and in effect a costume.

That's an interesting point. But the library wouldn't need to disclose in advance that Elsa or Alice in Wonderland might show up at story time. Why is that, do you think? What is it about the persona of a Drag Queen that differentiates it from just any fictional female character? Could it be that they are males who are pantomiming female sexuality, and those personas exist to entertain adult patrons in adult spaces regarding sexual themes?

A drag performer is traditionally a cisgender gay man. Some trans people as well as cisgender women do drag now as well. The thing that some people that aren't familiar with drag don't seem to understand is that a drag queen is a character putting on a performance.

A trans woman normally takes hormones which changes the shape of her body/face and make her grow breasts as well as a host of other things that happen on estrogen. There are a lot of possible surgeries that trans women can get. Some get all, some get none. Trans women live their entire lives as women. Sometimes you'll see a really cringy looking trans woman but that's usually early in transition. After a few years, most have the goal of just blending in as best as they can because they just want to live a normal life like they did before. But now as a woman because that matches how they felt inside.

When a drag queen takes off the costume, he's a man under it. A trans woman looks like (or does her best to look like) and lives as a woman all the time.

If you are a cisgender man portraying a caricature of women to children, this is helpful exactly…how? These story times are being branded as a way to promote acceptance. The proponents of drag queen story time can’t seem to agree on who exactly the drag queens are and what are their purpose at a story time is. You all might want to tighten up your story.

I'm not a cisgender man that does drag. I'm a trans woman. I've never once done a drag performance nor do I have any desire to do so. I have no problem watching drag or taking my children to a DQ Story Hour though. It's literally just a man in a dress reading a kid's book.

It's more than that though. You can't just divorce drag from its history and context as a sexualized performative caricature of females by and for adult males, and claim it's for kids now. Just like you can't host a minstrel story hour and claim it's just a guy in a costume reading a book.

Pervert. This is not sexualized.

He/she wasn't saying that the story time is secualized but rather how it all started certainly was. Reading comprehension!

+1000

If it’s not sexualized then why are so many panties in a bunch?

Because of homophobia/transphobia? Anti-LGBT people think of the LGBT community and only think sex.

I have no dog in this fight and wouldn't necessarily not take my kid to a DGSH. But can we please stop with calling people homophobes and transphobes when they disagree with you and/or have a different view or comfort level. I certainly don't think everything in the gay or trans community is sexualized, but have you been to a drag show? I have many times. It was a great time and would go again, but to say it is not sexualized is just stupid. Not saying that a kid story hour would be, but I can hear other's opinions without assuming the worst about them.

Except the people who have ginned up all of this stuff about drag queen story hour are not, and have not been, acting in good faith. They've just decided that today, they target the drag queens = and they've built a frothing mob as they've done it. None of them are dumb enough or sheltered enough to believe the things they're saying - and that now they've got other people parroting. They are political opportunists who think that this is the issue that'll win them power - who cares how stupid and craven.

Typical that you assume all people who disagree with you are incapable of reaching their own conclusions.

I thought drag was misogynist and was reading feminist literature about sexism in drag in the mid-2000s. There is a long history of feminist discussion on this topic, but I suspect you don’t actually care what women think.

Oh for gd's sake. I read Dworkin like every other feminist in the 90s. Of course I care what women think.

The thing is that the people harping on the allegely feminist critique of drag queen story hour - and just fk all of this nonsense for even making me write these words - may believe what they're saying, but it sure sounds like they're just looking for what they believe to be the left wing gotcha point here. And it's just stupid. It's just stupid.

The right wingers are craven opportunists. The people pretending to be left wingers should pick better company.

Shorter version: “Women, just shut up.”

NP. No. Your interpretation of that perhaps. You are set on an agenda. That’s fine. But it’s exactly your opinion. It doesn’t not belong to this feminist.

Then that PP should have no problem with people disagreeing with her, but she seems to have serious problems accepting that people disagree with her.

Let’s face it: she wants people who think DQSH is misogynist and sexist to shut up. If she didn’t, she would be okay with disagreement. But she obviously isn’t okay with disagreements.

The misogynist poster wants to run this conversation. They really aren’t leaving space for any other viewpoint. Including parents who are responding to the original post. This is off the rails.

don't mess with people trying to defend their turf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it is ok for men to dress up as exaggerated stereotypes of women then can white people (minus black face) dress in dreds, gold chains and slouchy clothes and mimic an AAVE dialect in an attempt to 'celebrate' black stereotypes?

Now hold up. First off, drag isn't naturally a an exaggerated stereotype, since there are plenty of real women who dress similarly. Further, tt's more akin to burlesque and it's a performance. As for the second part, tell me how that would play in a performance in a bar, club, or cabaret? What kind of show would that be?

Sasha Baren Cohen did something similar as Ali G, a British rap style dude, and it was okay, because it was a performance with a purpose and was fun.

Trying to equate minstrel shows with drag continuously is not a good argument, because your first premise would have to be that real women who dress like drag queens are offensive to all women.
See:

Women who dress over the top are offensive
Drag queens dress as over the top women.
Therefore, drag queens are offensive.

That's the only way to square that. Is this what you are arguing, or are you trying to pretend that there aren't woman who act and dress just like drag queens, which are whom they are performing as?

Thanks for that ridiculous straw man. The offensiveness is not because women don't like women who dress sexy. Drag is a performance that appropriates female sexuality. The offensiveness of drag is in its appropriation and performative reinterpretation (by males) of what it is to be female.