TJ Discrimination Case

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Not necessarily true, only if they choose to work very hard. It's more likely that a normal student who is curious and motivated will outperform a gifted student at TJ. I think many people here have been drinking too much from the gifted Kool Aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Agree and why local norms are considered a best practice in gifted education selection since actual giftedness is evenly distributed throughout the population. Sure, some parents hate this since it makes it hard for them to game admissions, but all indications are it yields the best outcomes.

True, but many would prefer to believe that privilege equates to merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Not necessarily true, only if they choose to work very hard. It's more likely that a normal student who is curious and motivated will outperform a gifted student at TJ. I think many people here have been drinking too much from the gifted Kool Aid.

Nope. The normal student who is curious and motivated will drown at TJ. They’ll work incredibly hard but will have to invest so much time and energy to keep up that they won’t be able to do anything besides schoolwork to support their experience.

These are the kids who get acceptable grades but stay up until 1 in the morning every night and contribute very little to the culture of the school. Current TJ parents - a SHOCKING number of your children fit into this category.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Agree and why local norms are considered a best practice in gifted education selection since actual giftedness is evenly distributed throughout the population. Sure, some parents hate this since it makes it hard for them to game admissions, but all indications are it yields the best outcomes.

Citation for that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Not necessarily true, only if they choose to work very hard. It's more likely that a normal student who is curious and motivated will outperform a gifted student at TJ. I think many people here have been drinking too much from the gifted Kool Aid.

Nope. The normal student who is curious and motivated will drown at TJ. They’ll work incredibly hard but will have to invest so much time and energy to keep up that they won’t be able to do anything besides schoolwork to support their experience.

These are the kids who get acceptable grades but stay up until 1 in the morning every night and contribute very little to the culture of the school. Current TJ parents - a SHOCKING number of your children fit into this category.

You're referring to kids who have little intrinsic interest in math and science, usually ones where their parents are more interested in them attending for prestige reasons than the kids are. Naturally they will not work that hard, or will work hard to please their parents but not because they want to. Curious and motivated students who are interested in math and science (and have shown it by doing well in base schools) would thrive at TJ. Your assertion that TJ is for gifted students only is baloney. TJ just has a lot more rigor and volume of work than normal high schools, it has nothing to do with giftedness. Note that TJ has overall better teachers and more resources to help students, but in the end the kids who are passionate about math and science will succeed there. That set of students is definitely a lot more than the set you're labeling as 'truly gifted', which is meaningless without an actual definition, which you haven't supplied.

[Anonymous]

Some of the TJ students admitted under the new admissions process are just a bad fit. Whether it is lacking intelligence, motivation, preparation, or work ethic, it doesn't matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Agree and why local norms are considered a best practice in gifted education selection since actual giftedness is evenly distributed throughout the population. Sure, some parents hate this since it makes it hard for them to game admissions, but all indications are it yields the best outcomes.

Citation for that?

Try google it's a widely accepted fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of the TJ students admitted under the new admissions process are just a bad fit. Whether it is lacking intelligence, motivation, preparation, or work ethic, it doesn't matter.

Sadly, even more, admitted under the old process, struggled to keep up. All that prep made average kids appear gifted who once at TJ just couldn't hack it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the TJ students admitted under the new admissions process are just a bad fit. Whether it is lacking intelligence, motivation, preparation, or work ethic, it doesn't matter.

Sadly, even more, admitted under the old process, struggled to keep up. All that prep made average kids appear gifted who once at TJ just couldn't hack it.

You are deeply committed to the notion that the new admissions process is leading to happier students and better results, despite the lack of evidence to support that.

One could just as easily speculate - and it is speculation at this point - that the new admissions process will lead to a reduction in TJ's academic standards and more kids who struggle to keep up even with less rigor.

At least the kids you disparage so much worked hard to keep up and please their parents. One suspects many current students applied on a lark, were admitted to fill middle school quotas, and over time will contribute to TJ's just becoming another FCPS high school, although one with better labs and stronger academics than schools like Annandale, Lewis, and Mount Vernon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Not necessarily true, only if they choose to work very hard. It's more likely that a normal student who is curious and motivated will outperform a gifted student at TJ. I think many people here have been drinking too much from the gifted Kool Aid.

Nope. The normal student who is curious and motivated will drown at TJ. They’ll work incredibly hard but will have to invest so much time and energy to keep up that they won’t be able to do anything besides schoolwork to support their experience.

These are the kids who get acceptable grades but stay up until 1 in the morning every night and contribute very little to the culture of the school. Current TJ parents - a SHOCKING number of your children fit into this category.

Yes, as a parent of a TJ graduate, I also saw this situation play out there. My child’s phone, which was kept in the kitchen after he went to bed, would be pinging until 1 and 2 in the morning with kids asking him questions about homework. My child was sound asleep, after having sports practice after school, sometimes another outside sports activity, and getting his own homework done.

I always felt bad for those kids. They had had tutoring sessions earlier in the evening or afternoon, but still needed help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the TJ students admitted under the new admissions process are just a bad fit. Whether it is lacking intelligence, motivation, preparation, or work ethic, it doesn't matter.

Sadly, even more, admitted under the old process, struggled to keep up. All that prep made average kids appear gifted who once at TJ just couldn't hack it.

You are deeply committed to the notion that the new admissions process is leading to happier students and better results, despite the lack of evidence to support that.

One could just as easily speculate - and it is speculation at this point - that the new admissions process will lead to a reduction in TJ's academic standards and more kids who struggle to keep up even with less rigor.

At least the kids you disparage so much worked hard to keep up and please their parents. One suspects many current students applied on a lark, were admitted to fill middle school quotas, and over time will contribute to TJ's just becoming another FCPS high school, although one with better labs and stronger academics than schools like Annandale, Lewis, and Mount Vernon.

DP, agree with this. If one looks at the top TJ kids, ALL of them work very hard, it's not like "Oh, they're so gifted they don't need to strive as much as the rest". This is such a silly American misconception that one is born gifted thus they don't need to work as hard as others who are not. The PPs who keep claiming that the kids who work hard only 'appear gifted' will have to prove their silly claim by 1) defining what the heck they're talking about when using the word 'gifted' and 2) showing how they know that kids who work hard are not 'gifted' by their definition. The data at TJ is very much like the data at other base schools: the kids who work hard, are dedicated, and passionate, do very well. It's as simple as that; those qualities lead to success. It has nothing to do with the suggestion that normal kids with above qualities and no learning issues cannot somehow cut it at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Not necessarily true, only if they choose to work very hard. It's more likely that a normal student who is curious and motivated will outperform a gifted student at TJ. I think many people here have been drinking too much from the gifted Kool Aid.

Nope. The normal student who is curious and motivated will drown at TJ. They’ll work incredibly hard but will have to invest so much time and energy to keep up that they won’t be able to do anything besides schoolwork to support their experience.

These are the kids who get acceptable grades but stay up until 1 in the morning every night and contribute very little to the culture of the school. Current TJ parents - a SHOCKING number of your children fit into this category.

Yes, as a parent of a TJ graduate, I also saw this situation play out there. My child’s phone, which was kept in the kitchen after he went to bed, would be pinging until 1 and 2 in the morning with kids asking him questions about homework. My child was sound asleep, after having sports practice after school, sometimes another outside sports activity, and getting his own homework done.

I always felt bad for those kids. They had had tutoring sessions earlier in the evening or afternoon, but still needed help.

BS, you're blaming this solely on prepping? Think about how silly that claim is. Those kids were calling your kid at late hours precisely because they WEREN'T studying and were slacking off during the day! Please don't make up illogical arguments.

[Anonymous]

Both sides continue to be wrong as always

1. If you took every kid in FCPS and gave them double math instruction plus every day the kids most "advanced" and "Qualified" for TJ would be very different

2. At the same time, anyone arguing folks at the bottom 50% of middle schools or folks who are taking Algebra 1 in 8th should be making any decent chunk of TJ are full of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Agree and why local norms are considered a best practice in gifted education selection since actual giftedness is evenly distributed throughout the population. Sure, some parents hate this since it makes it hard for them to game admissions, but all indications are it yields the best outcomes.

You've posted this before. The link you gave was talking about gifted programs within a school. That the school should look at the top kids at that school, and not kids who rate top for the district or country. This is not the same as selecting for a single gifted program at another school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From yesterdays Supreme Court hearings..

“ But he suggested that programmes like the University of Texas’s Top Ten Percent plan (which offers admission to the top decile of every high school in the state) could be kosher if they can be justified by appeals to “socioeconomic” or “geographic”, rather than racial, diversity. ..”

Folks.. u can keep arguing about racial bias and discriminations against asians etc.. but it is futile. FCPS has no intent to discriminate against any particular race and that is why it has not been escalated to the Supreme Court.

But keep arguing. Youngkin and his crazy Indian appointee to the VA DOE are still clueless.

OK. But in return we have to agree to stop calling the process a better way of identifying the most gifted students in Fairfax County and admit it is set up to avoid that outcome (a class of the most gifted) by assuring spots based on geography and socioeconomic factors as opposed to objective merit. I am willing to do that and agree that FCPS has decided that is how they want to fill the class at TJ and move on. I feel badly for the more gifted and objectively meritorious students, but accept FCPS' decision. I accept that every middle school has county tax payers and thus deserve some seats to a public high school that serves the county. But I will not try to argue that it is set up to find the best and brightest as many continue to do.

The problem is there has never been a method that uses objective merit. Many parents put their thumb on the scale by using $$$ to enroll their kids in outside enrichment which skews these measures. A truly gifted student at a less affluent school can outperform a heavily prepped student at a wealthy school when given the same opportunities and since this is public school after all we need to be concerned about fairness.

Agree and why local norms are considered a best practice in gifted education selection since actual giftedness is evenly distributed throughout the population. Sure, some parents hate this since it makes it hard for them to game admissions, but all indications are it yields the best outcomes.

Citation for that?

It is about measurement. You do realize that the Asian population is mainly immigrant with specialized skills who are already self selected. I know people don’t want to speak about this but it is just a statistical fact. If the base is the population of all of Asia (10 times the population of the US) they are already in the top few %. It is still about not giftedness but ability to work hard.