J.K. Rowling’s post on trans-identity and modern misogyny

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

Why are you assuming that I don't menstruate?

I didn't assume that. Why didn't you read my post?

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

As a cis-woman in a male-dominated profession, I've experienced plenty of misogyny in my time. Somehow, despite all of that, I'm able to be inclusive of "people who menstruate". Why is it so challenging for you? Who hurt you?

DP. This isn't about being hurt. This is about using my voice as a white cis gender women to advocate for poor and disenfranchised girls and women in this country who's lack of access to feminine hygiene products due to cost and access has health, education and socioeconomic consequences. And I will not trade the elevation of one group for the awareness of another needy group.

The fact that you center this conversation as a US problem also shows your INCREDIBLE privilege. In the US women and girls across the country ARE impacted and held back by their periods and not having adequate help to manage them but WORLDWIDE women suffer TREMENDOUSLY because of this issue. I've said it twice in this thread and not once has it been acknowledged but AGAIN girls in certain places in Africa face an enormous education gap because when they get their periods they are NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL. Therefore men in those areas get 25% more education. That is OPPRESSION OF WOMEN coming from their biological condition. And it needs to be talked about for what it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

As a cis-woman in a male-dominated profession, I've experienced plenty of misogyny in my time. Somehow, despite all of that, I'm able to be inclusive of "people who menstruate". Why is it so challenging for you? Who hurt you?

DP
By this do you mean XY transgender women (formerly men) or XX transgender men (formerly women), or both?
It's confusing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

Why are you assuming that I don't menstruate?

I didn't assume that. Why didn't you read my post?

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

I am fully behind free pads & tampons for ALL PEOPLE WHO MENSTRUATE. Why do you want to exclude anyone from that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

As a cis-woman in a male-dominated profession, I've experienced plenty of misogyny in my time. Somehow, despite all of that, I'm able to be inclusive of "people who menstruate". Why is it so challenging for you? Who hurt you?

DP
By this do you mean XY transgender women (formerly men) or XX transgender men (formerly women), or both?
It's confusing.

You are confused by that?

Let's keep it simple -- there are some people who menstruate and some who don't. End of story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

Why are you assuming that I don't menstruate?

I didn't assume that. Why didn't you read my post?

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

Please check your extreme privilege.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

As a cis-woman in a male-dominated profession, I've experienced plenty of misogyny in my time. Somehow, despite all of that, I'm able to be inclusive of "people who menstruate". Why is it so challenging for you? Who hurt you?

DP. This isn't about being hurt. This is about using my voice as a white cis gender women to advocate for poor and disenfranchised girls and women in this country who's lack of access to feminine hygiene products due to cost and access has health, education and socioeconomic consequences. And I will not trade the elevation of one group for the awareness of another needy group.

The fact that you center this conversation as a US problem also shows your INCREDIBLE privilege. In the US women and girls across the country ARE impacted and held back by their periods and not having adequate help to manage them but WORLDWIDE women suffer TREMENDOUSLY because of this issue. I've said it twice in this thread and not once has it been acknowledged but AGAIN girls in certain places in Africa face an enormous education gap because when they get their periods they are NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL. Therefore men in those areas get 25% more education. That is OPPRESSION OF WOMEN coming from their biological condition. And it needs to be talked about for what it is.

Why do you want to exclude ANYONE from that advocacy?

Why don't you want to help ALL "people who menstruate"? Why exclude some?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

As a cis-woman in a male-dominated profession, I've experienced plenty of misogyny in my time. Somehow, despite all of that, I'm able to be inclusive of "people who menstruate". Why is it so challenging for you? Who hurt you?

As a woman I refuse to be labeled as a cis-woman by trans-women, It's like white folks deciding on how black folks should be called!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

As a cis-woman in a male-dominated profession, I've experienced plenty of misogyny in my time. Somehow, despite all of that, I'm able to be inclusive of "people who menstruate". Why is it so challenging for you? Who hurt you?

DP. This isn't about being hurt. This is about using my voice as a white cis gender women to advocate for poor and disenfranchised girls and women in this country who's lack of access to feminine hygiene products due to cost and access has health, education and socioeconomic consequences. And I will not trade the elevation of one group for the awareness of another needy group.

The fact that you center this conversation as a US problem also shows your INCREDIBLE privilege. In the US women and girls across the country ARE impacted and held back by their periods and not having adequate help to manage them but WORLDWIDE women suffer TREMENDOUSLY because of this issue. I've said it twice in this thread and not once has it been acknowledged but AGAIN girls in certain places in Africa face an enormous education gap because when they get their periods they are NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL. Therefore men in those areas get 25% more education. That is OPPRESSION OF WOMEN coming from their biological condition. And it needs to be talked about for what it is.

Why do you want to exclude ANYONE from that advocacy?

Why don't you want to help ALL "people who menstruate"? Why exclude some?

I don't want to exclude anyone from advocacy, I want to advocate for their SPECIFIC needs. The needs of trans men, the needs of biologically born women and the needs of trans women. And I want to say, specifically, who's needs I am advocating for so that people understand specifically who is harmed. "People who menstruate" makes it sound like "people who like cheeseburgers". A vague group of people who might fit all walks of life. But women and trans women and trans men all face specific kinds of prejudice and should be advocated for as specific groups.

The restriction of access to feminine hygiene products is not something that oppresses a vague group of people, it is the targeted oppression of WOMEN worldwide. And when you say women, you put a face on it. And that is IMPORTANT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

[Anonymous]

Historically, people have been able to advocate for women's rights even though the term "women" has included women who have had hysterectomies (and therefore no longer menstruate), women who have gone through menopause, women who have stopped menstruating due to chemo/PCOS/other medical issues, and women who never menstruated. Why would acknowledging that transwomen are women be any different?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

That not being your anecdotal experience and it existing as a systemic problem across this country are not mutually exclusive possibilities. But you are proving that, regardless of how much you know about transgender people's needs in the advocacy space, you do not know enough about feminism and women's advocacy to be lecturing others on how it does no harm to women to erase the word 'woman' from women's issues.

It's not about anecdotal experiences, it's about extreme, inaccurate generalizations to put down others. This generalization does not apply to any trans people I know and it's really quite absurd to use a defense because you inexplicably feel threatened by people who pose no threat to you.

Again, this is classic TERF:
"It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!"

"And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there."

The core belief I used to speculate on that has literally NOTHING to do with trans people, and that is the 'generalization' I was using. I asked earlier in response to pushback here why then, do you and people who think I'm vile, believe that trans men are not waging the battle that trans women are fighting here. There is no effort to get 'men' taken away from men's issues like prostate cancer or testicular cancer. Trans men are not pushing for this complete and total inclusivity to the exclusion of the issues that men and women face due to their biological sex.

The whole point is be INCLUSIONARY. You aren't being excluded.

DP. The whole point of what? Your agenda? Why should we include biological males under the umbrella term of "women's and girls' rights?" We have different concerns and needs. Biological women have a right to advocate for ourselves and our own rights without biological men co-opting our movement and demanding that we include them.

[Anonymous]

I like how the anti-JKR folks have just resorted to name calling now. TERF and cracker. Got anything better?

(Also you’d be surprised at how much more racially diverse the gender critical movement is than the mainstream wishywashy girl power feminist movement)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

As a cis-woman in a male-dominated profession, I've experienced plenty of misogyny in my time. Somehow, despite all of that, I'm able to be inclusive of "people who menstruate". Why is it so challenging for you? Who hurt you?

DP. This isn't about being hurt. This is about using my voice as a white cis gender women to advocate for poor and disenfranchised girls and women in this country who's lack of access to feminine hygiene products due to cost and access has health, education and socioeconomic consequences. And I will not trade the elevation of one group for the awareness of another needy group.

The fact that you center this conversation as a US problem also shows your INCREDIBLE privilege. In the US women and girls across the country ARE impacted and held back by their periods and not having adequate help to manage them but WORLDWIDE women suffer TREMENDOUSLY because of this issue. I've said it twice in this thread and not once has it been acknowledged but AGAIN girls in certain places in Africa face an enormous education gap because when they get their periods they are NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL. Therefore men in those areas get 25% more education. That is OPPRESSION OF WOMEN coming from their biological condition. And it needs to be talked about for what it is.

Why do you want to exclude ANYONE from that advocacy?

Why don't you want to help ALL "people who menstruate"? Why exclude some?

I don't want to exclude anyone from advocacy, I want to advocate for their SPECIFIC needs. The needs of trans men, the needs of biologically born women and the needs of trans women. And I want to say, specifically, who's needs I am advocating for so that people understand specifically who is harmed. "People who menstruate" makes it sound like "people who like cheeseburgers". A vague group of people who might fit all walks of life. But women and trans women and trans men all face specific kinds of prejudice and should be advocated for as specific groups.

The restriction of access to feminine hygiene products is not something that oppresses a vague group of people, it is the targeted oppression of WOMEN worldwide. And when you say women, you put a face on it. And that is IMPORTANT.

If the target of the oppression is "people who menstruate" then why not advocate for "people who menstruate"?

If you want to be PRECISE...