J.K. Rowling’s post on trans-identity and modern misogyny

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Much has been written on girls being raised differently than boys (and boys, as a result, learning how to view women as less than from young ages) and it resulting in gaps in professional success and misogyny. A sampling:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/05/the-confidence-gap/359815/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprino/2017/06/15/gender-bias-at-work-why-men-call-forceful-women-hysterical-and-try-to-silence-them/#38553bcf3ea2

https://www.payscale.com/career-news/2016/12/assertive-women-earn-more

https://time.com/22004/how-to-not-sound-like-a-sexist-jerk-even-if-youre-a-woman/

https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/11/how-to-stop-sexism-and-raise-a-son-who-respects-women.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/where-do-kids-learn-to-undervalue-women-from-their-parents/2017/11/10/724518b2-c439-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

There’s no hysteria. I’m going to continue to refer to the sex that menstruates and female because that’s a fact. I will also continue to refer to these females as women. I will not change based on .6% of the population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s like being born a female and liking pink and expressing femininity is something bad. Like it needs to be purged and erased. Don’t do his to me. Don’t do this to the billions of women who think this way around the world. Women are still inunde el p,aging fields here. Heck we still don’t even have paid maternity leave in the freaking United States! Unlike some other countries. We get no propriety in society at all.

I accept you, trans or whatever you are. I love you. I admire you. I see you. But you must show the same regard to me. And also listen to the points here about how totally unfair it is to compete in our space, when we have struggle for so long to carve out our space, and gain some sense of traction in society.

How can you think trans women DON’T see and feel those same struggles as we do? Do you think they didn’t face struggles of their own growing up in an body they felt wasn’t theirs? That they didn’t face discrimination for who they are? Amazing you think YOUR womanhood is threatened or discounted by theirs.

Okay explain to me then why they don't want cis-women playing trans roles, you can't have it both ways, the struggle is not the same. And how anyone can support Jenner getting Woman of the Year, who is still a republican and before transitioning had never come out and supported LGBTQ issues is beyond me. She should have refused the award and I quote in acceptance speech, "“The hardest part about being a woman is figuring out what to wear.” F$$$ Y$$

Ugh, that just trivializes women. Jenner became a misogynist caricature of what men think women are. No, wearing heels and makeup and getting a boob job won't make you a woman. It is offensive.

Plenty of women choose to express themselves in a “feminine” way by wearing heels, wearing makeup, and getting boob jobs.

The fact that you are focusing on how Caitlin is expressing herself - and not millions of other women who do the exact same thing - says more about you than it does about her. You are singling her out in a bigoted way.

Nope. And in a related point, drag queens are deeply misogynistic - and frequently racist - depictions of womanhood.

OK, disgusting TERF.

Please take your deep-seeded mommy issues to a shrink.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

That not being your anecdotal experience and it existing as a systemic problem across this country are not mutually exclusive possibilities. But you are proving that, regardless of how much you know about transgender people's needs in the advocacy space, you do not know enough about feminism and women's advocacy to be lecturing others on how it does no harm to women to erase the word 'woman' from women's issues.

It's not about anecdotal experiences, it's about extreme, inaccurate generalizations to put down others. This generalization does not apply to any trans people I know and it's really quite absurd to use a defense because you inexplicably feel threatened by people who pose no threat to you.

Again, this is classic TERF:
"It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!"

"And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

Why are you assuming that I don't menstruate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

There’s no hysteria. I’m going to continue to refer to the sex that menstruates and female because that’s a fact. I will also continue to refer to these females as women. I will not change based on .6% of the population.

Fine. Be a dick. That is completely your prerogative. Just be prepared to be judged for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

That not being your anecdotal experience and it existing as a systemic problem across this country are not mutually exclusive possibilities. But you are proving that, regardless of how much you know about transgender people's needs in the advocacy space, you do not know enough about feminism and women's advocacy to be lecturing others on how it does no harm to women to erase the word 'woman' from women's issues.

It's not about anecdotal experiences, it's about extreme, inaccurate generalizations to put down others. This generalization does not apply to any trans people I know and it's really quite absurd to use a defense because you inexplicably feel threatened by people who pose no threat to you.

Again, this is classic TERF:
"It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!"

"And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there."

The core belief I used to speculate on that has literally NOTHING to do with trans people, and that is the 'generalization' I was using. I asked earlier in response to pushback here why then, do you and people who think I'm vile, believe that trans men are not waging the battle that trans women are fighting here. There is no effort to get 'men' taken away from men's issues like prostate cancer or testicular cancer. Trans men are not pushing for this complete and total inclusivity to the exclusion of the issues that men and women face due to their biological sex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

Why are you assuming that I don't menstruate?

I didn't assume that. Why didn't you read my post?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

That not being your anecdotal experience and it existing as a systemic problem across this country are not mutually exclusive possibilities. But you are proving that, regardless of how much you know about transgender people's needs in the advocacy space, you do not know enough about feminism and women's advocacy to be lecturing others on how it does no harm to women to erase the word 'woman' from women's issues.

It's not about anecdotal experiences, it's about extreme, inaccurate generalizations to put down others. This generalization does not apply to any trans people I know and it's really quite absurd to use a defense because you inexplicably feel threatened by people who pose no threat to you.

Again, this is classic TERF:
"It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!"

"And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there."

The core belief I used to speculate on that has literally NOTHING to do with trans people, and that is the 'generalization' I was using. I asked earlier in response to pushback here why then, do you and people who think I'm vile, believe that trans men are not waging the battle that trans women are fighting here. There is no effort to get 'men' taken away from men's issues like prostate cancer or testicular cancer. Trans men are not pushing for this complete and total inclusivity to the exclusion of the issues that men and women face due to their biological sex.

The whole point is be INCLUSIONARY. You aren't being excluded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And today The Sun posts an interview with her abuser showing zero remorse at all. Because women are still, perpetually at the bottom of the totem pole.

You can be abused and also still hold harmful opinions and use your platform to spread them. She is both. She doesn’t get a pass on harming transgender people now because she survived DV.

I don't understand. She is harming transgender people by saying XX women are not the same as XY trans women biologically?
How can that not be true?

That is not the extent of her comments

It kind of seems like it is.

Women’s issues are not trans women’s issues. Both groups of people have issues, but they aren’t the same.

It doesn’t seem like it to you because you are only looking at her blog post. She has made transphobic comments for a LONG time, this isn’t new, and because I know trans people I deeply care about I know that and won’t excuse her for it.

DP. She said she would freaking march alongside Trans people for their rights. She is NOT transphobic. You’re twisting her thoughts. And btw, don’t forget she is allowed to think differently than you are on this. This is ok.

Hey look, I googled for you and here’s a handy write up of her history with trans issues.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vogue.com/article/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets/amp

Still not seeing the issue. She says “sex is real”. That’s the most transphobic thing you can come up with?

Agreed. The vitriol and hate are not justified.

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Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

Why are you assuming that I don't menstruate?

I didn't assume that. Why didn't you read my post?

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

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Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

DP. And with that statement, you demonstrate that you are deeply ignorant and privileged, and have little understanding of violence against women or the history of what women have endured for thousands of years. It's lovely you were raised in a pretty, privileged, sparkly little bubble. That's not true for the rest of the world.

As a cis-woman in a male-dominated profession, I've experienced plenty of misogyny in my time. Somehow, despite all of that, I'm able to be inclusive of "people who menstruate". Why is it so challenging for you? Who hurt you?