J.K. Rowling’s post on trans-identity and modern misogyny

[Anonymous]

DP. The whole point of what? Your agenda? Why should we include biological males under the umbrella term of "women's and girls' rights?" We have different concerns and needs. Biological women have a right to advocate for ourselves and our own rights without biological men co-opting our movement and demanding that we include them.

So really, the only issue you have is when you perceive that trans rights conflict with women's rights, correct? Obviously, including trans women doesn't stop you from advocating for equal pay or access to tampons. No one is going to say "well, we were going to pass a law ensuring that girls can attend school when they are menstruating, but we found out that you're trans-inclusive, so never mind!"

This is basically about bathrooms and sports teams, right? Am I missing any others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I like how the anti-JKR folks have just resorted to name calling now. TERF and cracker. Got anything better?

(Also you’d be surprised at how much more racially diverse the gender critical movement is than the mainstream wishywashy girl power feminist movement)

Yes, the discussion on the pro-JKR side seems pretty nuanced and civil. The responses are shouts of “you’re hurting people” and “TERF!”. I’m not seeing a lot of substance beyond that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

I have stage IV endometriosis and would certainly benefit from research for "people with endometriosis".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The whole point of what? Your agenda? Why should we include biological males under the umbrella term of "women's and girls' rights?" We have different concerns and needs. Biological women have a right to advocate for ourselves and our own rights without biological men co-opting our movement and demanding that we include them.

So really, the only issue you have is when you perceive that trans rights conflict with women's rights, correct? Obviously, including trans women doesn't stop you from advocating for equal pay or access to tampons. No one is going to say "well, we were going to pass a law ensuring that girls can attend school when they are menstruating, but we found out that you're trans-inclusive, so never mind!"

This is basically about bathrooms and sports teams, right? Am I missing any others?

Prisons, homeless shelters, domestic violence shelters and services as well. And giving children hormones and surgeries, allowing them to make permanent changes to their bodies, including sterilization before they are old enough to understand the consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the anti-JKR folks have just resorted to name calling now. TERF and cracker. Got anything better?

(Also you’d be surprised at how much more racially diverse the gender critical movement is than the mainstream wishywashy girl power feminist movement)

Yes, the discussion on the pro-JKR side seems pretty nuanced and civil. The responses are shouts of “you’re hurting people” and “TERF!”. I’m not seeing a lot of substance beyond that.

Happy to have a civil discussion. When someone posts an intentionally cruel or ignorant comment I respond accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The whole point of what? Your agenda? Why should we include biological males under the umbrella term of "women's and girls' rights?" We have different concerns and needs. Biological women have a right to advocate for ourselves and our own rights without biological men co-opting our movement and demanding that we include them.

So really, the only issue you have is when you perceive that trans rights conflict with women's rights, correct? Obviously, including trans women doesn't stop you from advocating for equal pay or access to tampons. No one is going to say "well, we were going to pass a law ensuring that girls can attend school when they are menstruating, but we found out that you're trans-inclusive, so never mind!"

This is basically about bathrooms and sports teams, right? Am I missing any others?

To me, and you are speaking to AT LEAST two people, it is about the policing of language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

That not being your anecdotal experience and it existing as a systemic problem across this country are not mutually exclusive possibilities. But you are proving that, regardless of how much you know about transgender people's needs in the advocacy space, you do not know enough about feminism and women's advocacy to be lecturing others on how it does no harm to women to erase the word 'woman' from women's issues.

It's not about anecdotal experiences, it's about extreme, inaccurate generalizations to put down others. This generalization does not apply to any trans people I know and it's really quite absurd to use a defense because you inexplicably feel threatened by people who pose no threat to you.

Again, this is classic TERF:
"It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!"

"And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there."

The core belief I used to speculate on that has literally NOTHING to do with trans people, and that is the 'generalization' I was using. I asked earlier in response to pushback here why then, do you and people who think I'm vile, believe that trans men are not waging the battle that trans women are fighting here. There is no effort to get 'men' taken away from men's issues like prostate cancer or testicular cancer. Trans men are not pushing for this complete and total inclusivity to the exclusion of the issues that men and women face due to their biological sex.

The whole point is be INCLUSIONARY. You aren't being excluded.

DP. The whole point of what? Your agenda? Why should we include biological males under the umbrella term of "women's and girls' rights?" We have different concerns and needs. Biological women have a right to advocate for ourselves and our own rights without biological men co-opting our movement and demanding that we include them.

The whole point of being a compassionate human being.

You can do whatever TF you want to do, but if you intentionally exclude people when you had the easy option to include them I will judge accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

DP. Are you now conflating FGM and male circumcision?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

I have stage IV endometriosis and would certainly benefit from research for "people with endometriosis".

If you are biologically female, you would mainly benefit from endometrial research about bio females. Because diseases in men and women are often caused by different mechanisms and present differently. It's science.

[Anonymous]

Additionally, women’s health have suffered as many medical research used male subjects and their biology as a focus. Another arena where biology dictates health.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The whole point of what? Your agenda? Why should we include biological males under the umbrella term of "women's and girls' rights?" We have different concerns and needs. Biological women have a right to advocate for ourselves and our own rights without biological men co-opting our movement and demanding that we include them.

So really, the only issue you have is when you perceive that trans rights conflict with women's rights, correct? Obviously, including trans women doesn't stop you from advocating for equal pay or access to tampons. No one is going to say "well, we were going to pass a law ensuring that girls can attend school when they are menstruating, but we found out that you're trans-inclusive, so never mind!"

This is basically about bathrooms and sports teams, right? Am I missing any others?

Prisons, homeless shelters, domestic violence shelters and services as well. And giving children hormones and surgeries, allowing them to make permanent changes to their bodies, including sterilization before they are old enough to understand the consequences.

Yes, all of the above. Do trans advocates insist that all of these safe spaces for women must also all be open to trans women as well? Because it seems that what JKR is saying is that trans women who are victims of rape, violence, etc are of course deserving of protection but that this may not necessarily be in the same places as those for biological women. And that new legislation which may allow any man to call himself a woman if he simply chooses to be would threaten those spaces, because that legislation may also be used by men who desire to access those spaces for nefarious reasons, not because they are legitimately trans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

I have stage IV endometriosis and would certainly benefit from research for "people with endometriosis".

If you are biologically female, you would mainly benefit from endometrial research about bio females. Because diseases in men and women are often caused by different mechanisms and present differently. It's science.

Anyone who is at risk of endometriosis would benefit from research on endometriosis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

That not being your anecdotal experience and it existing as a systemic problem across this country are not mutually exclusive possibilities. But you are proving that, regardless of how much you know about transgender people's needs in the advocacy space, you do not know enough about feminism and women's advocacy to be lecturing others on how it does no harm to women to erase the word 'woman' from women's issues.

It's not about anecdotal experiences, it's about extreme, inaccurate generalizations to put down others. This generalization does not apply to any trans people I know and it's really quite absurd to use a defense because you inexplicably feel threatened by people who pose no threat to you.

Again, this is classic TERF:
"It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!"

"And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there."

The core belief I used to speculate on that has literally NOTHING to do with trans people, and that is the 'generalization' I was using. I asked earlier in response to pushback here why then, do you and people who think I'm vile, believe that trans men are not waging the battle that trans women are fighting here. There is no effort to get 'men' taken away from men's issues like prostate cancer or testicular cancer. Trans men are not pushing for this complete and total inclusivity to the exclusion of the issues that men and women face due to their biological sex.

The whole point is be INCLUSIONARY. You aren't being excluded.

DP. The whole point of what? Your agenda? Why should we include biological males under the umbrella term of "women's and girls' rights?" We have different concerns and needs. Biological women have a right to advocate for ourselves and our own rights without biological men co-opting our movement and demanding that we include them.

The whole point of being a compassionate human being.

You can do whatever TF you want to do, but if you intentionally exclude people when you had the easy option to include them I will judge accordingly.

Awesome! But by your logic, why aren't you including cis women in your trans advocacy? You need to include me and advocate specifically for my special concerns, which include trans advocates not shutting down women's shelters , and not using misogynistic slurs against women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the anti-JKR folks have just resorted to name calling now. TERF and cracker. Got anything better?

(Also you’d be surprised at how much more racially diverse the gender critical movement is than the mainstream wishywashy girl power feminist movement)

Yes, the discussion on the pro-JKR side seems pretty nuanced and civil. The responses are shouts of “you’re hurting people” and “TERF!”. I’m not seeing a lot of substance beyond that.

Happy to have a civil discussion. When someone posts an intentionally cruel or ignorant comment I respond accordingly.

DP
So if someone says or thinks 'transgender women are biologically men(XY)' that person is intentionally cruel and anti-trans?
Is that what this debate is about, that we should think transgender women(XY) are the same as women(XX)?