Thinking of detaching

[Anonymous]

Been to therapy many times re: alcoholic/dry drunk/narcisstic mom.

Several scenarios have come up that point to detaching from my parents, but my father was very ill.
I spoke to him a few times about how tough this relationship was and he asked me to tolerate it for his sake.
I told him I'd do so until he died, if it did not directly harm my own children.

He died last year. The last conversation I had with him was a huge reversal. He asked me why my mother was angry and what he did to deserve her "behavior." As a patient, he was more like a child, (and she hates taking care of people or putting other people first).

I told him what the therapist told me. It wasn't his fault. Her way of loving wasn't what other people do, and being in a position to caretake is not a role where she is OK, so she lashes out. (He was in hospice, and safe, and really really dying). I told him that he was a success and his marriage was a success, she gave him everything she had to give and that was the best she could do, and his kids are OK and everything was peaceful and he could "leave" when he was ready. He died three days later.

It has now been a little over a year since he passed. My mom is angry and beligerant and needy all at the same time. I went to see her with my kids to cheer her up, at her request. Lots of minor wacko stuff happened. She bought tickets to do things for us and then "lost track of time", missed them and had a tantrum. She was preparing for another event (supposedly a kid-friendly outing) so I prepped my kids to be "bus is coming in 30-seconds" ready. She barked at them as she looked for her wallet and keys. I told her kindly but firmly, "Nope. Not to worry. The kids are on the couch, ready to go. Shoes on and everything." When I went to the restroom, she told my older son off for losing something (which he had thought he lost but I had in my purse all along) and lectured him on being more responsible. "I have to be harsh with you, and you aren't going to like it." My kids went on one of the outings she planned, one got hurt, and she asked me if the other people there would be offended if she left under the circumstances. "He's bleeding. They will understand, Mom, or I can leave and come back for you." "Then I won't have a ride, though, and we were going to get hamburgers." Just whacko.

My strategy is to be very kindergarten-teacher calm when things fall apart. It helps me to stay in the moment and it prevents me from having to sink into a chaotic place where she reigns supreme due to experience.

My kids think she is now scared of me because they noticed she would only be harsh if I were not in the room. If I was there, she would change her tune. She tried to force my son to eat something. (We don't do this. SURPRISE!!! I HAD AN EATING DISORDER...) When I walked in the room, she walked out. I threw it away without confronting her. Just moved on and told him he was dismissed after she left the room.

We left on decent terms, although she said she was glad the trip was over because she found our pace to be very tiring and she had other things on her plate she needed to do. (Previously, she asked if she could fly back with us and join us on our next leg of vacation, which was where I was meeting their dad at a different resort).

She tried an assortment of shenanigans to control the whole situation (telling me to fly into X airport instead of Y, because she didn't want me to see friends who live near airport Y..., and telling me she'd pick us up at the airport, then calling the day before to say she had car trouble and could not get us...yet her car was fine....so I was out $500.) I realize now this was a lot of control, because these geographic locations she said were close to her new place were just NOT.

Since I got back, almost 3 weeks ago, she had not returned my calls or texts. I sent her an early Mother's Day gift which she has not acknowledged. I know she is disappointed I'm not making 2 trips in 3 weeks to see her for Mother's Day. This is a her pattern. I was about to give in and drive 500 miles to see her and my kids said, "If you see her, do we have to come? She doesn't seem to like us and is only nice if you make her be nice." Ouch. She's supposed to come see us after Mother's Day for another family event. I'm both concerned she won't come and hoping to have a reason to terminate the tango.

I'm over it. It has been 40+ years. I feel as though no matter what I do, I have disappointed her before I have even started, yet I'm invited to try harder to hit the moving target.

Any books, therpeutic techniques, stories where this was the outcome for you?

[Anonymous]

Personally, I refuse to treat adults like children. That's enabling their immature and manipulative behavior. You are making your own problems worse.

You need to set firm boundaries.

[Anonymous]

You need more therapy. It takes you too long to explain this situation, which demonstrates to me that you are confused in your mind and heart about your relationship with your mother, your children's relationship with their grandmother, etc. Which is understandable.

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm really impressed at how well you've dealt with your parents. Yes, upon reflection there are some things you would do differently next time but you're no doormat. Sounds like you are in control of your life.

It would be okay to step back from your mom for a bit. My mom was never that crazy so I don't have any experiences to share that would be useful for you. For me it was going to Al-Anon and working on accepting that I couldn't change her. At the time I didn't realize she was an alcoholic. She was the co-dependent and my dad was the recovering alcoholic. But she had never given up complaining about my dad and trying to control people in order to control her anxiety. I had kept trying to show her the error of her ways (without success) so I still had to work on accepting that I couldn't change her.

That was an enormous help. Once I was able to set some boundaries with her it was easier for me to be sympathetic over the anxiety that I realized totally controlled her life. Only later did I realize that she was probably a secret alcoholic.

Anyway all this is to say that I had to set boundaries with her and once I was able to do that I was able to have a better relationship with her. Don't know if this will happen to you but at least it's a reminder that detaching doesn't necessarily mean that your relationship will disappear or get worse.

[Anonymous]

Never, ever be in a situation that you can't excuse yourself (politely) and leave. Why are you making this big journey to visit her? How often do you do this? 2x a year is enough. You should always stay in a hotel. You need to insist that she always stay in a hotel. And during visits make your daily contact short. No reason to cut her out of your life. Treat her like a neighbor. Be courteous, polite, make friendly small talk.

Why do you care if you disappoint her? Op, that statement right there is your problem.

Let go of the fantasy of some warm-and-fuzzy mother-daughter relationship.

[Anonymous]

From someone who has BTDT: you're not over shit. You're still ruminating and fully engaged in this mess. Sit down with another adult (therapist, BFF, husband) and set get feedback on limits that are appropriate.

Some of the rules for my relationship with my mother were:

1. My alcoholic mother was not allowed to see my children alone because of her behavior. She was never alone with them. Period. It wasn't negotiable.

2. I would take the kids to see her once a week when we lived close and once year when we didn't. If the annual visit was used up, it was used up. Sorry.

3. I gave the gifts for birthdays/holidays/Christmas that were appropriate. I didn't expect acknowledgement or happiness from her because I got her a gift. Do the right thing and then let it go.

4. When she stopped talking to me for weeks on end, I thanked my lucky stars and let it go. She'd come around before the next big holiday, or not. At the next big holiday, I would make contact again and she could choose to talk to me or not. If she didn't want to talk to me, I let it go until the next one.

Word to the wise though: when I started enforcing appropriate boundaries and behavior with my mother, she trash talked me to every family member, neighbor, and friend that she could. I lost my relationship with most of my family because they thought it was awful that I was so horrible to my poor, dear mother.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

have you tried Alanon?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:have you tried Alanon?

OP here.

Yes. I may need to try that again, but my challenge with Alanon meetings has been that the drinking behavior is not there now, but the "dry drunk" behavior is.
I don't worry she will get get drunk and fall or crash or whatever.

I worry about the lashing out and the general "more more more".

The therapist I saw said it was a narcissistic personality disorder, and the AA meetings actually don't help the disorder (for people like her, not for everyone), they just create an environment where the craziness is reinforced, because as long as you don't have a glass of wine, you can be as terrible as you want.

Other people who are in AA who "work the steps" have told me that this isn't what the program is supposed to do. You are supposed to keep growing as a person and evolve, but being "stuck" at the age you were when you started using alcohol as a crutch is pretty textbook.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From someone who has BTDT: you're not over shit. You're still ruminating and fully engaged in this mess. Sit down with another adult (therapist, BFF, husband) and set get feedback on limits that are appropriate.

Some of the rules for my relationship with my mother were:

1. My alcoholic mother was not allowed to see my children alone because of her behavior. She was never alone with them. Period. It wasn't negotiable.

2. I would take the kids to see her once a week when we lived close and once year when we didn't. If the annual visit was used up, it was used up. Sorry.

3. I gave the gifts for birthdays/holidays/Christmas that were appropriate. I didn't expect acknowledgement or happiness from her because I got her a gift. Do the right thing and then let it go.

4. When she stopped talking to me for weeks on end, I thanked my lucky stars and let it go. She'd come around before the next big holiday, or not. At the next big holiday, I would make contact again and she could choose to talk to me or not. If she didn't want to talk to me, I let it go until the next one.

Word to the wise though: when I started enforcing appropriate boundaries and behavior with my mother, she trash talked me to every family member, neighbor, and friend that she could. I lost my relationship with most of my family because they thought it was awful that I was so horrible to my poor, dear mother.

Good luck.

This is immensely helpful info. Thanks for taking the time to think about it and write it up.

We had a "break" about 10 years ago.
I only knew I was being trash talked b/c I got letters and cards from relatives, out of the blue, offering support and love/consolation. "We will always love you." "No matter what, you are our family." I was like "huh?" Then I found out she had been telling them I was cut out.

Last night when I talked to my husband about this, we discussed that we'd lose some people, but some people already understand (and they are loving people).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:have you tried Alanon?

OP here.

Yes. I may need to try that again, but my challenge with Alanon meetings has been that the drinking behavior is not there now, but the "dry drunk" behavior is.
I don't worry she will get get drunk and fall or crash or whatever.

I worry about the lashing out and the general "more more more".

The therapist I saw said it was a narcissistic personality disorder, and the AA meetings actually don't help the disorder (for people like her, not for everyone), they just create an environment where the craziness is reinforced, because as long as you don't have a glass of wine, you can be as terrible as you want.

Other people who are in AA who "work the steps" have told me that this isn't what the program is supposed to do. You are supposed to keep growing as a person and evolve, but being "stuck" at the age you were when you started using alcohol as a crutch is pretty textbook.

I never found Al-Anon useful in practice. My mom wasn't just a drunk, she suffered from borderline personality disorder which meant that she was a hot mess most of the time. Al-Anon just really didn't have enough advice for dealing with that and truly, it is an outside issue for them. They don't claim to be an expert on it. Have you considered that your mom might have a personality disorder? A huge number of people with alcoholism have co-morbid personality disorders - borderline, antisocial and narcissistic are the most common.

If you think self-help is useful, I found these books useful:

1. The Zen of Recovery - it's aimed at alcoholics but the author is also a child of an alcoholic and he has a lot to say about letting go;
2. Toxic Parents -- all purpose discussion of growing up with abusive/neglectful/crazy parents;
3. Motherless Daughters -- talks about the absence of a mother through death or alcoholism or abandonment;
4. Stop Walking on Eggshells -- This book is about borderline personality disorder.
5. Splitting -- a book about living with a loved one's narcissistic personality disorder;
6. I'm Okay; You're Not Okay -- a book about living with people who personality disorders

[Anonymous]

17:25 if the way to go

And frankly, stop ruminating.

[Anonymous]

is the way to go.

[Anonymous]

What I found helpful is (well first I moved away) was setting boundaries. My relationship isn't as fraught as yours is, but still difficult and the horrible things my Mother would say to me after "a little wine" still hurt, though I've put them on the back burner. My Mom has issues, she deals with depression and anxiety and she drinks. She can be a lovely person, so it can be very confusing. We no longer stay at her house when I visit, instead with another family member. When she starts to tell my kids that what they've done isn't so good, and they aren't really very smart or talented, I'm gone. I visit 3 times a year and make regular phone calls. She tries to pit me against my brother or SIL (particularly my SIL) and I don't let her. I found Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers to be an interesting read - it helped me think about some things. Good luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I found helpful is (well first I moved away) was setting boundaries. My relationship isn't as fraught as yours is, but still difficult and the horrible things my Mother would say to me after "a little wine" still hurt, though I've put them on the back burner. My Mom has issues, she deals with depression and anxiety and she drinks. She can be a lovely person, so it can be very confusing. We no longer stay at her house when I visit, instead with another family member. When she starts to tell my kids that what they've done isn't so good, and they aren't really very smart or talented, I'm gone. I visit 3 times a year and make regular phone calls. She tries to pit me against my brother or SIL (particularly my SIL) and I don't let her. I found Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers to be an interesting read - it helped me think about some things. Good luck to you.

NP here. Thanks for the book recommendation. That is a new one to me, but sounds like it was written directly for me.

[Anonymous]

Cut this toxic woman out of your life.

Some mother!!