US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Not in the same breath as Russia. No comparison.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

100%. And they’ll pontificate about how Russians should “simply overthrow” Putin, thinking it’s so easy because the worst thing that’s ever happened to them is to realize Starbucks is out of their favorite syrup.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think the US has some good options and prospects with respect to Ukraine.

All we need to do is help Ukraine survive another couple weeks then the Russian army will be depleted and exhausted. Then they are done for. Russia will be exposed as a paper tiger. Perhaps Putin will be removed from power and Russia can start turning into a friend rather than adversary.

How’s life in la la land?

Why do you think that scenario is la la land?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think the US has some good options and prospects with respect to Ukraine.

All we need to do is help Ukraine survive another couple weeks then the Russian army will be depleted and exhausted. Then they are done for. Russia will be exposed as a paper tiger. Perhaps Putin will be removed from power and Russia can start turning into a friend rather than adversary.

How’s life in la la land?

Why do you think that scenario is la la land?

The Russian military completely folding in 2 weeks, Putin being removed from power, and Russia becoming friendly with the West? Really? You think that’s plausible?

[Anonymous]

Key propagandist Soloviev on Russia 1 state tv, usually expressing government position. As he said, Ukraine is just an “intermediate objective”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

100%. And they’ll pontificate about how Russians should “simply overthrow” Putin, thinking it’s so easy because the worst thing that’s ever happened to them is to realize Starbucks is out of their favorite syrup.

Not simply, but yes. You can’t argue both ends. You can’t admit the impossibility of a direct conflict and also expect the world to feel for Russians who don’t at least attempt to fix their dictator issue. It’s always been one or the other after this kind of aggression, correct? So.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

100%. And they’ll pontificate about how Russians should “simply overthrow” Putin, thinking it’s so easy because the worst thing that’s ever happened to them is to realize Starbucks is out of their favorite syrup.

Not simply, but yes. You can’t argue both ends. You can’t admit the impossibility of a direct conflict and also expect the world to feel for Russians who don’t at least attempt to fix their dictator issue. It’s always been one or the other after this kind of aggression, correct? So.

If you think Russians haven’t attempted to “fix their dictator issue,” then you haven’t been paying any attention. I suggest you look up:

- Protest stats from OVD Info
- Aleksey Navalnyy’s career
- Boris Nemstov
- The 2011-2012 protests over exceptionally rigged Duma elections
- The 2013 Moscow mayoral election
- The 2015 trucker protests
- The 2017 anti-Medvedev protests

For at least the past 12 years, there have been nearly constant protests in Russia. Navalnyy, Nemstov (before he got shot by Chechen hit men in 2015), Kseniya Sobchak, Vladimir Milov, Volkov (Navalnyy’s #2 guy), Ilya Yashin, and many others have worked tirelessly to try to change the regime. They have attracted thousands to their cause.

The Kremlin has simply been extremely good at rigging the system on every level. So it’s been extremely difficult.

But to say Russians haven’t tried is frankly an insult to the exceptional risk these people have taken. They have had acid thrown in their faces. They have been sent to penal colonies. Many of them have had to leave the country to save their families from being killed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

100%. And they’ll pontificate about how Russians should “simply overthrow” Putin, thinking it’s so easy because the worst thing that’s ever happened to them is to realize Starbucks is out of their favorite syrup.

Dafuq you all are talking about at this point?! This thread is about what the US should/shouldn't do with respect to Ukraine. If you want to have a discussion about whether Russia or the US has had the more evil foreign policy over the past 100 years, can you please start a new thread?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

100%. And they’ll pontificate about how Russians should “simply overthrow” Putin, thinking it’s so easy because the worst thing that’s ever happened to them is to realize Starbucks is out of their favorite syrup.

Not simply, but yes. You can’t argue both ends. You can’t admit the impossibility of a direct conflict and also expect the world to feel for Russians who don’t at least attempt to fix their dictator issue. It’s always been one or the other after this kind of aggression, correct? So.

If you think Russians haven’t attempted to “fix their dictator issue,” then you haven’t been paying any attention. I suggest you look up:

- Protest stats from OVD Info
- Aleksey Navalnyy’s career
- Boris Nemstov
- The 2011-2012 protests over exceptionally rigged Duma elections
- The 2013 Moscow mayoral election
- The 2015 trucker protests
- The 2017 anti-Medvedev protests

For at least the past 12 years, there have been nearly constant protests in Russia. Navalnyy, Nemstov (before he got shot by Chechen hit men in 2015), Kseniya Sobchak, Vladimir Milov, Volkov (Navalnyy’s #2 guy), Ilya Yashin, and many others have worked tirelessly to try to change the regime. They have attracted thousands to their cause.

The Kremlin has simply been extremely good at rigging the system on every level. So it’s been extremely difficult.

But to say Russians haven’t tried is frankly an insult to the exceptional risk these people have taken. They have had acid thrown in their faces. They have been sent to penal colonies. Many of them have had to leave the country to save their families from being killed.

See the post riiiiiiight below yours. Go to your little thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

100%. And they’ll pontificate about how Russians should “simply overthrow” Putin, thinking it’s so easy because the worst thing that’s ever happened to them is to realize Starbucks is out of their favorite syrup.

Dafuq you all are talking about at this point?! This thread is about what the US should/shouldn't do with respect to Ukraine. If you want to have a discussion about whether Russia or the US has had the more evil foreign policy over the past 100 years, can you please start a new thread?!

He has, where he denies that the war is popular in Russia. Don’t bother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

100%. And they’ll pontificate about how Russians should “simply overthrow” Putin, thinking it’s so easy because the worst thing that’s ever happened to them is to realize Starbucks is out of their favorite syrup.

Not simply, but yes. You can’t argue both ends. You can’t admit the impossibility of a direct conflict and also expect the world to feel for Russians who don’t at least attempt to fix their dictator issue. It’s always been one or the other after this kind of aggression, correct? So.

If you think Russians haven’t attempted to “fix their dictator issue,” then you haven’t been paying any attention. I suggest you look up:

- Protest stats from OVD Info
- Aleksey Navalnyy’s career
- Boris Nemstov
- The 2011-2012 protests over exceptionally rigged Duma elections
- The 2013 Moscow mayoral election
- The 2015 trucker protests
- The 2017 anti-Medvedev protests

For at least the past 12 years, there have been nearly constant protests in Russia. Navalnyy, Nemstov (before he got shot by Chechen hit men in 2015), Kseniya Sobchak, Vladimir Milov, Volkov (Navalnyy’s #2 guy), Ilya Yashin, and many others have worked tirelessly to try to change the regime. They have attracted thousands to their cause.

The Kremlin has simply been extremely good at rigging the system on every level. So it’s been extremely difficult.

But to say Russians haven’t tried is frankly an insult to the exceptional risk these people have taken. They have had acid thrown in their faces. They have been sent to penal colonies. Many of them have had to leave the country to save their families from being killed.

See the post riiiiiiight below yours. Go to your little thread.

? I was directly responding to PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

They aren’t. And even if there were no Russian invasion, it would still never be an appropriate time to calmly, rationally, and accurately discuss US interventions and escalations and warmongering acts abroad. It never is. And that’s part of why you have a lot of MC/UMC posters here who are glad to have a Good War far far away, where they can stare at that on TV and not worry about the Covid-40 pounds they have to lose, to just hang out here and on WaPo and claim the US just must “do more” (“more” undefined, but I’m sure after Zelensky addresses Congress a whooolllle bunch of war addicts will say a no-fly zone can and should be put in place) because this is essentially a Rocky IV restaging in their heads.

100%. And they’ll pontificate about how Russians should “simply overthrow” Putin, thinking it’s so easy because the worst thing that’s ever happened to them is to realize Starbucks is out of their favorite syrup.

Dafuq you all are talking about at this point?! This thread is about what the US should/shouldn't do with respect to Ukraine. If you want to have a discussion about whether Russia or the US has had the more evil foreign policy over the past 100 years, can you please start a new thread?!

He has, where he denies that the war is popular in Russia. Don’t bother.

Yes, keep ignoring independent data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Key propagandist Soloviev on Russia 1 state tv, usually expressing government position. As he said, Ukraine is just an “intermediate objective”

Sure, in 15 years when they rebuild their military they can maybe take over an uninhabited island in the Black Sea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Key propagandist Soloviev on Russia 1 state tv, usually expressing government position. As he said, Ukraine is just an “intermediate objective”

Sure, in 15 years when they rebuild their military they can maybe take over an uninhabited island in the Black Sea.

What island?