US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can only speak for yourself, or someone specific whose actions were demonstrable. You can't speak for me or "we", you don't know how I felt about Iraq then or now. Putin has murdered pregnant women and children who presented no threat to him. Maybe you don't think that's evil, but I sure as hell do. Also, Putin didn't seem to think absorbing Crimea was a headache, so your theory is really flimsy.

So I take it that you think no children and pregnant women were killed by US airstrikes in Iraq?

The 30,000 bombs we dropped during the air campaign didn't hit any civilians whatsoever?
------------------
There is a lot of speculation as to why Putin invaded Ukraine. We cannot be sure of his motivation. It is either (1) he wants to expand Russian territory or (2) he is worried about potential NATO expansion into Ukraine and is unwilling to share a 1500 mile border with a NATO country.

We don't know his primary motive (and no, his believe that Ukrainians and Russians are one people isn't proof that he wants an empire), but my sense is that his motivate is (2) rather than (1) given that, for the last 15 years, he has stated that the Russian government views expanding NATO to include Ukraine as an unacceptable security risk.

In regard to Crimea -- I believe the US would have done precisely the same thing were we in danger of losing a critical military base and port. The motive was not an expansion of the Russian "empire", but rather making sure Russia has a warm-water port.

I can't read Putin's mind, nor can any of us. But it is possible that he views the invasion of Ukraine as a form of proactive defense against potential NATO expansion. Yes, an invasion is a sick, twisted form of "defense", but Putin certainly wouldn't be the first leader to apply this sort of logic.

Why would you take it that way? I've said nothing even remotely resembling that, and this isn't a thread about Iraq.

---‐-------

How is Russia making sure it has a warm water port not an expansion of its empire? You're really doing to logical pretzel twisting to accomodate Putin. If Putin really wants NATO to back off, there are other things he can do beaides targeting innocent civilians, like disarming his nukes.

I would take it that way because it is what our current head of the CIA, Wiliam Burns, told our government after his years in Moscow as a diplomat -- he stated that it isn't just Putin that views Ukraine's potential NATO accession as a security risk, but rather the entire Russian government. Burns repeatedly cautioned us that the closer Ukraine gets to NATO, the more likely Russian retaliation would become.

In addition, Putin has repeatedly told us, over the last 15 years, that Ukraine entering NATO would constitute crossing a red line, and Russia would be forced to make a strong countermove.

Disarming his nukes? That would require a huge amount of trust -- we don't trust Russia, and they don't trust us, so Russia disarming their nukes isn't a plausible way forward. How about we first disarm our nukes, so that the Russians feel comfortable? Would you be OK with that? Who should lower the barrel of their gun first?


He has tried other things. He has certainly tried to influence Ukrainian po

That's not what I was asking about, but it's nice to not have Iraq whataboutism for a change, so I'll just leave it at that. What do you get out of carrying so much water for Putin?

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

There were also 49 countries in the coalition that invaded Iraq.

[Anonymous]

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

DP. I don't see any reflexive beliefs expressed in that we are the good guys here, the reasoning is pretty well laid out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can only speak for yourself, or someone specific whose actions were demonstrable. You can't speak for me or "we", you don't know how I felt about Iraq then or now. Putin has murdered pregnant women and children who presented no threat to him. Maybe you don't think that's evil, but I sure as hell do. Also, Putin didn't seem to think absorbing Crimea was a headache, so your theory is really flimsy.

So I take it that you think no children and pregnant women were killed by US airstrikes in Iraq?

The 30,000 bombs we dropped during the air campaign didn't hit any civilians whatsoever?
------------------
There is a lot of speculation as to why Putin invaded Ukraine. We cannot be sure of his motivation. It is either (1) he wants to expand Russian territory or (2) he is worried about potential NATO expansion into Ukraine and is unwilling to share a 1500 mile border with a NATO country.

We don't know his primary motive (and no, his believe that Ukrainians and Russians are one people isn't proof that he wants an empire), but my sense is that his motivate is (2) rather than (1) given that, for the last 15 years, he has stated that the Russian government views expanding NATO to include Ukraine as an unacceptable security risk.

In regard to Crimea -- I believe the US would have done precisely the same thing were we in danger of losing a critical military base and port. The motive was not an expansion of the Russian "empire", but rather making sure Russia has a warm-water port.

I can't read Putin's mind, nor can any of us. But it is possible that he views the invasion of Ukraine as a form of proactive defense against potential NATO expansion. Yes, an invasion is a sick, twisted form of "defense", but Putin certainly wouldn't be the first leader to apply this sort of logic.

Why would you take it that way? I've said nothing even remotely resembling that, and this isn't a thread about Iraq.

---‐-------

How is Russia making sure it has a warm water port not an expansion of its empire? You're really doing to logical pretzel twisting to accomodate Putin. If Putin really wants NATO to back off, there are other things he can do beaides targeting innocent civilians, like disarming his nukes.

I would take it that way because it is what our current head of the CIA, Wiliam Burns, told our government after his years in Moscow as a diplomat -- he stated that it isn't just Putin that views Ukraine's potential NATO accession as a security risk, but rather the entire Russian government. Burns repeatedly cautioned us that the closer Ukraine gets to NATO, the more likely Russian retaliation would become.

In addition, Putin has repeatedly told us, over the last 15 years, that Ukraine entering NATO would constitute crossing a red line, and Russia would be forced to make a strong countermove.

Disarming his nukes? That would require a huge amount of trust -- we don't trust Russia, and they don't trust us, so Russia disarming their nukes isn't a plausible way forward. How about we first disarm our nukes, so that the Russians feel comfortable? Would you be OK with that? Who should lower the barrel of their gun first?


He has tried other things. He has certainly tried to influence Ukrainian po

That's not what I was asking about, but it's nice to not have Iraq whataboutism for a change, so I'll just leave it at that. What do you get out of carrying so much water for Putin?

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

There were also 49 countries in the coalition that invaded Iraq.

This is key. Everyone wanted to be our friend and help us. Russia can't even get Belarus to help them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

DP. I don't see any reflexive beliefs expressed in that we are the good guys here, the reasoning is pretty well laid out.

You can't see the bias because the fish isn't aware that it is swimming in water. It is hard to be aware of the assumptions that lie beneath one's rational thought processes. This is true of the people in every nation, not just those in the United States. It takes time -- many years -- of living abroad, and interacting closely with the "enemy", to develop the capability of truly seeing the world through their eyes. And then the shades of grey become visible, and we realize that all is not quite as black-and-white as we had previously believed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can only speak for yourself, or someone specific whose actions were demonstrable. You can't speak for me or "we", you don't know how I felt about Iraq then or now. Putin has murdered pregnant women and children who presented no threat to him. Maybe you don't think that's evil, but I sure as hell do. Also, Putin didn't seem to think absorbing Crimea was a headache, so your theory is really flimsy.

So I take it that you think no children and pregnant women were killed by US airstrikes in Iraq?

The 30,000 bombs we dropped during the air campaign didn't hit any civilians whatsoever?
------------------
There is a lot of speculation as to why Putin invaded Ukraine. We cannot be sure of his motivation. It is either (1) he wants to expand Russian territory or (2) he is worried about potential NATO expansion into Ukraine and is unwilling to share a 1500 mile border with a NATO country.

We don't know his primary motive (and no, his believe that Ukrainians and Russians are one people isn't proof that he wants an empire), but my sense is that his motivate is (2) rather than (1) given that, for the last 15 years, he has stated that the Russian government views expanding NATO to include Ukraine as an unacceptable security risk.

In regard to Crimea -- I believe the US would have done precisely the same thing were we in danger of losing a critical military base and port. The motive was not an expansion of the Russian "empire", but rather making sure Russia has a warm-water port.

I can't read Putin's mind, nor can any of us. But it is possible that he views the invasion of Ukraine as a form of proactive defense against potential NATO expansion. Yes, an invasion is a sick, twisted form of "defense", but Putin certainly wouldn't be the first leader to apply this sort of logic.

Why would you take it that way? I've said nothing even remotely resembling that, and this isn't a thread about Iraq.

---‐-------

How is Russia making sure it has a warm water port not an expansion of its empire? You're really doing to logical pretzel twisting to accomodate Putin. If Putin really wants NATO to back off, there are other things he can do beaides targeting innocent civilians, like disarming his nukes.

I would take it that way because it is what our current head of the CIA, Wiliam Burns, told our government after his years in Moscow as a diplomat -- he stated that it isn't just Putin that views Ukraine's potential NATO accession as a security risk, but rather the entire Russian government. Burns repeatedly cautioned us that the closer Ukraine gets to NATO, the more likely Russian retaliation would become.

In addition, Putin has repeatedly told us, over the last 15 years, that Ukraine entering NATO would constitute crossing a red line, and Russia would be forced to make a strong countermove.

Disarming his nukes? That would require a huge amount of trust -- we don't trust Russia, and they don't trust us, so Russia disarming their nukes isn't a plausible way forward. How about we first disarm our nukes, so that the Russians feel comfortable? Would you be OK with that? Who should lower the barrel of their gun first?


He has tried other things. He has certainly tried to influence Ukrainian po

That's not what I was asking about, but it's nice to not have Iraq whataboutism for a change, so I'll just leave it at that. What do you get out of carrying so much water for Putin?

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

There were also 49 countries in the coalition that invaded Iraq.

This is key. Everyone wanted to be our friend and help us. Russia can't even get Belarus to help them.

The US is the only country that has stepped up as a global leader. There is also high trust in US competence.

This crisis was a chance for many countries, including ambitious ones like China, to step to the plate. None want the responsibility, the expense or the hard work of relationship building. So the US remains, warts and all, the best alternative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

DP. I don't see any reflexive beliefs expressed in that we are the good guys here, the reasoning is pretty well laid out.

You can't see the bias because the fish isn't aware that it is swimming in water. It is hard to be aware of the assumptions that lie beneath one's rational thought processes. This is true of the people in every nation, not just those in the United States. It takes time -- many years -- of living abroad, and interacting closely with the "enemy", to develop the capability of truly seeing the world through their eyes. And then the shades of grey become visible, and we realize that all is not quite as black-and-white as we had previously believed.

How perfectly vague. Just wishy washy enough to weasel out of any position a person could take. Why form a coherent counterpoint when you could just say that everyone (except yourself of course) is just not able to see the truth.

Same thing that every charlatan in history has preached.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

We shut down Abu Ghraib through the process of democracy and law. Do think there is any avenue in Russia to challenge anything at all that Putin does?

No comparison.
Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

[Anonymous]

I actually think the US has some good options and prospects with respect to Ukraine.

All we need to do is help Ukraine survive another couple weeks then the Russian army will be depleted and exhausted. Then they are done for. Russia will be exposed as a paper tiger. Perhaps Putin will be removed from power and Russia can start turning into a friend rather than adversary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

You are free to call US actions horrific, go to Moscow and try saying the same about Russian actions and you may learn about being held without trial

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Are you really not capable of calling US actions horrific?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually think the US has some good options and prospects with respect to Ukraine.

All we need to do is help Ukraine survive another couple weeks then the Russian army will be depleted and exhausted. Then they are done for. Russia will be exposed as a paper tiger. Perhaps Putin will be removed from power and Russia can start turning into a friend rather than adversary.

How’s life in la la land?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And it's truly astounding that anyone would even try something as lame as "yabut the US is worse than Russia" given Stalin murdered at least 6 million of his own people plus hundreds of thousands more in Russia's expansionism and proxy wars around the globe. FOH!

Not to mention, that when the US did go into Iraq, I don't recall the US threatening to kill millions by saying "STAY OUT OF IT OR THERE WILL BE REPRISALS LIKE THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN" while raising nuclear readiness levels. But Russia certainly DID do that.

Russia is FAR worse than the US, by any measure.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it is dangerous to believe, by reflex, that we are the "good guys", and that the other guys are "evil".

Real life isn't a Marvel comic book with selfless super-heroes and black-hearted super-villains.

Fine, then we're the far-less-bad guys. Still doesn't get Russia off the hook.

DP. I don’t think anyone is trying to get Russia off the hook. But it’s a little disturbing that you’ve seemed to have forgotten the violent regime change the US has engaged in since at least the beginning of the 20th century. Iran, countless South American countries, Iraq, Vietnam, the Koreas …

None of that even includes how we treated innocent Muslims after 9/11, including holding people without trial at Guantanamo, setting up secret torture sites, etc.

One can—and should—consider Russian and US actions around the world horrific.

None of that is relevant to the current situation with Russia and Ukraine and frankly I'm quite annoyed about idiotic "yabut whatabout the US" comments coming up every 3 posts where it concerns Russia.