J.K. Rowling’s post on trans-identity and modern misogyny

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

The irony of someone claiming they hold the purity test for feminism calling someone "honey" is haaaaarsh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

The irony of someone claiming they hold the purity test for feminism calling someone "honey" is haaaaarsh.

You’re not being victimized here. Stop acting like you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And today The Sun posts an interview with her abuser showing zero remorse at all. Because women are still, perpetually at the bottom of the totem pole.

You can be abused and also still hold harmful opinions and use your platform to spread them. She is both. She doesn’t get a pass on harming transgender people now because she survived DV.

I don't understand. She is harming transgender people by saying XX women are not the same as XY trans women biologically?
How can that not be true?

That is not the extent of her comments

It kind of seems like it is.

Women’s issues are not trans women’s issues. Both groups of people have issues, but they aren’t the same.

It doesn’t seem like it to you because you are only looking at her blog post. She has made transphobic comments for a LONG time, this isn’t new, and because I know trans people I deeply care about I know that and won’t excuse her for it.

DP. She said she would freaking march alongside Trans people for their rights. She is NOT transphobic. You’re twisting her thoughts. And btw, don’t forget she is allowed to think differently than you are on this. This is ok.

We’ve already explained she can think whatever she wants. It’s disgusting to use her massive platform in PRIDE month to voice these opinions about trans women. You think it’s coincidence she chose to center her white cis voice in *this* month? why does the world need to hear over and over again that JK Rowling doesn’t consider trans women real women? She seems insistent everyone knows how much she thinks this and like... nobody even asked her. She’s a children’s book author with massive cultural impact who now uses that platform to voice harmful opinions.

So your beef is that she’s saying it THIS month? If she said the same thing next month it would be ok?

Nobody asked any of us. Nobody asked you or me, and here were are putting our thoughts into the universe. She can do the same, and she can do it in June. And most people—-seriously, MOST PEOPLE—-agree with her!

I’m sorry this upsets you. Me, a liberal Democrat, I agree with her. Most people do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

NP. Your use of "honey" is entirely unnecessary and dismissive. You may not consider this person to be your enemy, but you are acting like that. You are accountable for your words and behavior, even anonymously, even online.

Prove that you can disagree and be civil and not see someone with a different viewpoint as "the enemy" by treating them with basic civility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

The irony of someone claiming they hold the purity test for feminism calling someone "honey" is haaaaarsh.

You’re not being victimized here. Stop acting like you are.

Neither are trans people. They should stop acting like they are.

[Anonymous]

Rowling is an author, I like her books. She is an expert on fiction, and specifically fiction for kids and teens...and nothing else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

NP here. Agreed.

But I will say that this is not specific to discussions about trans people; it’s a byproduct of today’s cancel culture. Many people seem to feel that encountering an opinion different than their own is an affront to their personal freedom. You must agree with them completely, or be attacked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

Except that it’s not...

Women have had to fight so hard for resources and safe spaces, it is disconcerting to see them disintegrating under the banner of trans inclusion.

Even on this thread it’s now considered exclusionary to say women menstruate or that women bear children and go through menopause. Historically, much of the fight for women’s rights have included oppression directly related to female biological functions. Girls not being able to attend school because of their periods. Child marriage and forced or coerced pregnancy. Maternity care. Sexual violence and rape and the risk of pregnancy. All of these issues are not inclusive of trans women but they very relevant to biological women. Recognizing that reality is not anti-trans. It’s actually the height of misogyny to expect biological women to give up all the progress we’ve made and the safe spaces we’ve created because it might not be inclusive enough or relevant to a trans woman’s experience.

It’s TERF 101. No one is asking women to “give up” anything.

It's the bigoted, woman-hater again with their TERFing. Get out of your mom's basement, and ya know, get a job and VOTE.

Just calling out the vile bigots. GFY.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rowling is an author, I like her books. She is an expert on fiction, and specifically fiction for kids and teens...and nothing else.

Rowling is pulled into these discussions when the public bashes her for not including more diverse characters in her writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it less offensive if I say only females menstruate?

No.

What a joke. What happened to “trans women are biologically male but identify as female”?

If there’s no such thing as biology then how can someone be trans?

Because you have it backwards.

That's because the vile bigots are ignorant and likely don't even know any trans people.

Probably posting from their Duggar-style bunker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

DP. The post makes perfect sense. Most people would agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

This is exactly the kind of militant response that is wrong here. People can support ending discrimination of trans people and advocate for them without having to completely agree with you that they are the same as other women. They are not. The experience of a trans woman is not the same as those of us who were born genetically female. It. just. isn't. Just because I acknowledge these difference does not mean I do not have compassion or that I do not want trans people to be accepted and safe and loved.

You don't get to tell us to "just stop". Stop with your thought policing. You hurt the cause, not help, when you just try to shut down discussion.

It was a vile comment - not sure why you are trying to defend it.

And go re-read it - PP isn't advocating for trans people in any way.

I'm the person who made the vile comment. I don't understand how it was vile. I extrapolated how boys and girls are conditioned and raised in this country to how, respectively, trans men and trans women have tried to integrate themselves post transition. It really isn't a comment about trans people at all, its a comment about how we raise boys and how we raise girls and how those differences manifest in trans people who, uniquely, travel from one set of norms and expectations to the other.

Wow - your generalizations are pretty f-ed up all around.

You don't think women in American society are raised to be peacemakers and to put their own needs second? And that men are raised to be more confident and assertive and that this has direct advantages in many situations, mostly in the workplace. This is a large acknowledged problem, its why women don't ask for raises. It contributes to the wage gap among other gender inequalities. This is not a controversial observation. Applying it to trans people may be, but the core observation is, IMO, basically taken as fact these days.

That is not my experience AT ALL. And certainly not something to take "as fact".

That not being your anecdotal experience and it existing as a systemic problem across this country are not mutually exclusive possibilities. But you are proving that, regardless of how much you know about transgender people's needs in the advocacy space, you do not know enough about feminism and women's advocacy to be lecturing others on how it does no harm to women to erase the word 'woman' from women's issues.