If things get worse for Jewish people

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone had this thought. If this is really what the younger generation is like would Jewish people even have support in the US in two to three generation. Easy to scoff at these college students but they are technically the leaders of tomorrow.

I'm a millennial who is pro-Palestine and not particularly supportive of the Israeli government (certainly not this one) and absolutely think the United States should dial back its political and financial support to the state of Israel. And I will vote for it, to the extent that I have a choice (not in 2024, obviously).

I'm not sure what your comment means. I have no problem with Jewish people as a whole, and to the extent that anyone is antisemitic or Jewish people are victims of hate speech/crimes, I totally condemn that and believe that should be prosecuted. I don't think advocating for the withdrawal of U.S. support to the state of Israel, as a consistent part of U.S. foreign policy, is baseline antisemitic. Perhaps some people advocate that for antisemitic reasons, but I just think it is bad foreign policy.

If you conflate those two things, than we have a fundamental disagreement on worldview. That's not my issue to solve.

Surely you understand that stateless nations are problematic for everyone. Look at the Kurds. They are a nation that has no official state. This has caused them to be attacked, famously with chemical weapons. They are also attackers, historically using terrorism for political violence. Right now, Israelis have a state. And, they have agreed to allow the state of Palestine to operate independently on land that officially belongs to Israel. Israel even foots the bill for all utilities that Palestine uses.

Why isn't this enough? Surely you understand that kicking Israelis out and leaving them stateless would harm all involved. Palestine has practically no governance and Israel has to take care of the people in Palestine. If we say, okay, let's kick out all the Jews and cede all of Israel to a terrorist organization, how do you think that will turn out? And what we would do about the nuclear bombs that Israel has? Turn that over to hamas, too? The so-called pro Palestine movement will be a bit like the dog that caught the car. This is not an outcome that will help actual Palestinians.

I agree that stateless nations are a problem for everyone. I also believe that the existence of the current Israel/Palestine situation is a problem for everyone (see, e.g. the current conflict - a major humanitarian problem for Gaza, potentially a regional conflict, and a major optics problem for the U.S., whose patron state is committing war crimes that we are, for some reason, defending in public).

The U.S. protecting this status quo through its policy of "support for Israel" (in its current form), is in my opinion bad policy. Either we need to (1) put our money where our mouth is and forcefully advocate for/broker a legitimate two-state solution in which Palestine is a real state with full control and sovereignty over its land, which would also require massive foreign aid to build out infrastructure and institutions so that it actually can be a functioning state; or (2) put enormous pressure on Israel to absorb Palestinians into the country as full, voting citizens with rights, who are treated well, educated properly, and supported in every way by the state. That might mean that Israel is no longer an ethnoreligious state but a multiethnic democracy. It can be done. And, while I hear the arguments that the Jewish people should have their own state, I don't think that is possible or good policy when it comes at the expense of subjugating a population of 2 million Palestinians.

Obviously these options aren't simple. There are a ton of issues to work out, and I realize that neither side is solely a victim or solely an aggressor, and obviously at this point they hate each other. I think either would eventually be preferable to what is going on right now, and I really hate that the U.S.'s policy is to blindly support the Israeli government as though they can do no wrong. It is bad policy for the American people.

Please educate yourself on the history of the region.

Why does the United States have to do what you want it to do? You make it sound like an imperative or moral obligation. And you dare to ask us to build your nation up by scratch financially? You don’t even like our country anyway you just want to use us so no thank you. We support Israel and that is our choice.

I'm an American citizen and an American taxpayer just as much as you are, and it's equally my right to speak up about what I see to be the moral obligations of my government, protest USG policy I don't like, and vote and advocate for policy I do like, as it is yours. And I do not have Palestinian heritage. I am very glad that demographic and generational change is making it more likely that the longstanding USG policy toward Israel will change. I will vote for that.

The anti Israeli protesters are suggesting fairly significant involvement in the middle east. A lot more people will die if we try to restructure the region and chase out the Jews. I don't even see your position as being sympathetic toward middle eastern civilians. It's really only helpful to terrorist groups seeking control.

I never suggested "chas[ing] out the Jews." I recognize that there are people who advocate for that, but they're pretty clearly not serious people. I think we need to leverage the resources we provide to Israel by requiring that they actually, in good faith, participate in a two-state solution that creates a functional Palestinian state or integrate the Palestinian population into their country as full citizens with full rights. I am willing to allocate foreign aid and resources to this. I do not want to allocate cash and in-kind military support to Israel in the form we are providing now, i.e., no strings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

Let me help you understand.
The attack suffered by Israel on 10/7 is why we are where we are. There would be no war in Israel had it not been for this brutal attack. These savages didn't attack the military as a government would do in a legitimate war. No, they went after civilians who had no defense. They went after women and children. They shot them. They beheaded some. They tortured many. They raped some. They burned them alive. They bombed some. And, they baked babies in an oven.
These are not the actions of "normal" people. These are not the actions of people trying to seize land or territory. These are the actions of brutally hateful savages. These are the actions of people that have no right to walk the earth among peace loving people.
I hope people continue to remind you, and others, of the brutality that happened that day. Because so many protests today - even in the US - are in support of Hamas... the brutal savages who carried out these acts. It is the responsibility of people everywhere to continue to remind the world what these savages did and why Israel is forced to take action.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

This is exactly what you genocidal colonists want us to do - to focus on only your trauma, your grief, your pain and to dehumanize your victims in order to justify the maniacal horror you will inflict on them.

You focus only on October 7 as though the world began on that day and:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe? The IRA was arguably using the Irish as human shields - gee, shouldn't England have besieged and carpet-bombed Ireland?

You lie about Hamas not being in the West Bank.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=HAMAS'%20strength%20is%20concentrated%20in,Palestinian%20territories%20since%20the%201990s.

PP here. The post you're responding to uses some rhetoric I disagree with, but you've responded to none of the substantive points it makes. Do you have a response?

I’ve responded to the colonialist nonsense a million times on this thread and Part 1. If people still refuse to accept that Israel isn’t a colonist state, I can’t help them.

To be more precise, Israel is an apartheid, colonialist-settler state.

It's the opposite of that. That area was literally colonized by the British. The Israelis moving into that area are indigenous. The Palestinians don't want to be part of Israel-- they weren't kicked out, they left. If anything, Palestine is a colonist settler apartheid state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

Let me help you understand.
The attack suffered by Israel on 10/7 is why we are where we are. There would be no war in Israel had it not been for this brutal attack. These savages didn't attack the military as a government would do in a legitimate war. No, they went after civilians who had no defense. They went after women and children. They shot them. They beheaded some. They tortured many. They raped some. They burned them alive. They bombed some. And, they baked babies in an oven.
These are not the actions of "normal" people. These are not the actions of people trying to seize land or territory. These are the actions of brutally hateful savages. These are the actions of people that have no right to walk the earth among peace loving people.
I hope people continue to remind you, and others, of the brutality that happened that day. Because so many protests today - even in the US - are in support of Hamas... the brutal savages who carried out these acts. It is the responsibility of people everywhere to continue to remind the world what these savages did and why Israel is forced to take action.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

This is exactly what you genocidal colonists want us to do - to focus on only your trauma, your grief, your pain and to dehumanize your victims in order to justify the maniacal horror you will inflict on them.

You focus only on October 7 as though the world began on that day and:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe? The IRA was arguably using the Irish as human shields - gee, shouldn't England have besieged and carpet-bombed Ireland?

You lie about Hamas not being in the West Bank.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=HAMAS'%20strength%20is%20concentrated%20in,Palestinian%20territories%20since%20the%201990s.

PP here. The post you're responding to uses some rhetoric I disagree with, but you've responded to none of the substantive points it makes. Do you have a response?

I’ve responded to the colonialist nonsense a million times on this thread and Part 1. If people still refuse to accept that Israel isn’t a colonist state, I can’t help them.

Right. I agree the colonialist language is not accurate and not helpful. I'm asking about these things below [quoting the post]:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe?

DP.

Not one word about the Palestinian pogroms against the Jews BEFORE Israel was even founded?

Not one word about the Palestinian leadership's collaboration with Hitler and attempts to eliminate the Jewish people?

Not one word about the Palestinian rejection of UN resolution 181 and the initial two-state solution?

Not one word about the attempts to obliterate Israel for the 75 years since the day of its founding?

Not one word about the 75 years of brutal Palestinian terrorist attacks directed at civilians? (Entebbe, Munich, Achille Lauro, etc.)

Etc., etc., etc.

This all belongs in the other thread. But telling that your hatred is so strong that you brought it here.

You have no support for a single thing you've posted but even IF it were true, Palestine has the right to defend itself against an occupying force. Or is Israel the only actor with the right to defend itself.

As for Hitler, it's Germans not Palestinians who slaughtered 6 million Jews - what is Israel doing about the Germans?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone had this thought. If this is really what the younger generation is like would Jewish people even have support in the US in two to three generation. Easy to scoff at these college students but they are technically the leaders of tomorrow.

I'm a millennial who is pro-Palestine and not particularly supportive of the Israeli government (certainly not this one) and absolutely think the United States should dial back its political and financial support to the state of Israel. And I will vote for it, to the extent that I have a choice (not in 2024, obviously).

I'm not sure what your comment means. I have no problem with Jewish people as a whole, and to the extent that anyone is antisemitic or Jewish people are victims of hate speech/crimes, I totally condemn that and believe that should be prosecuted. I don't think advocating for the withdrawal of U.S. support to the state of Israel, as a consistent part of U.S. foreign policy, is baseline antisemitic. Perhaps some people advocate that for antisemitic reasons, but I just think it is bad foreign policy.

If you conflate those two things, than we have a fundamental disagreement on worldview. That's not my issue to solve.

Surely you understand that stateless nations are problematic for everyone. Look at the Kurds. They are a nation that has no official state. This has caused them to be attacked, famously with chemical weapons. They are also attackers, historically using terrorism for political violence. Right now, Israelis have a state. And, they have agreed to allow the state of Palestine to operate independently on land that officially belongs to Israel. Israel even foots the bill for all utilities that Palestine uses.

Why isn't this enough? Surely you understand that kicking Israelis out and leaving them stateless would harm all involved. Palestine has practically no governance and Israel has to take care of the people in Palestine. If we say, okay, let's kick out all the Jews and cede all of Israel to a terrorist organization, how do you think that will turn out? And what we would do about the nuclear bombs that Israel has? Turn that over to hamas, too? The so-called pro Palestine movement will be a bit like the dog that caught the car. This is not an outcome that will help actual Palestinians.

I agree that stateless nations are a problem for everyone. I also believe that the existence of the current Israel/Palestine situation is a problem for everyone (see, e.g. the current conflict - a major humanitarian problem for Gaza, potentially a regional conflict, and a major optics problem for the U.S., whose patron state is committing war crimes that we are, for some reason, defending in public).

The U.S. protecting this status quo through its policy of "support for Israel" (in its current form), is in my opinion bad policy. Either we need to (1) put our money where our mouth is and forcefully advocate for/broker a legitimate two-state solution in which Palestine is a real state with full control and sovereignty over its land, which would also require massive foreign aid to build out infrastructure and institutions so that it actually can be a functioning state; or (2) put enormous pressure on Israel to absorb Palestinians into the country as full, voting citizens with rights, who are treated well, educated properly, and supported in every way by the state. That might mean that Israel is no longer an ethnoreligious state but a multiethnic democracy. It can be done. And, while I hear the arguments that the Jewish people should have their own state, I don't think that is possible or good policy when it comes at the expense of subjugating a population of 2 million Palestinians.

Obviously these options aren't simple. There are a ton of issues to work out, and I realize that neither side is solely a victim or solely an aggressor, and obviously at this point they hate each other. I think either would eventually be preferable to what is going on right now, and I really hate that the U.S.'s policy is to blindly support the Israeli government as though they can do no wrong. It is bad policy for the American people.

Please educate yourself on the history of the region.

Why does the United States have to do what you want it to do? You make it sound like an imperative or moral obligation. And you dare to ask us to build your nation up by scratch financially? You don’t even like our country anyway you just want to use us so no thank you. We support Israel and that is our choice.

I'm an American citizen and an American taxpayer just as much as you are, and it's equally my right to speak up about what I see to be the moral obligations of my government, protest USG policy I don't like, and vote and advocate for policy I do like, as it is yours. And I do not have Palestinian heritage. I am very glad that demographic and generational change is making it more likely that the longstanding USG policy toward Israel will change. I will vote for that.

The anti Israeli protesters are suggesting fairly significant involvement in the middle east. A lot more people will die if we try to restructure the region and chase out the Jews. I don't even see your position as being sympathetic toward middle eastern civilians. It's really only helpful to terrorist groups seeking control.

I never suggested "chas[ing] out the Jews." I recognize that there are people who advocate for that, but they're pretty clearly not serious people. I think we need to leverage the resources we provide to Israel by requiring that they actually, in good faith, participate in a two-state solution that creates a functional Palestinian state or integrate the Palestinian population into their country as full citizens with full rights. I am willing to allocate foreign aid and resources to this. I do not want to allocate cash and in-kind military support to Israel in the form we are providing now, i.e., no strings.

They've tried. They've offered a ton of deals to the Palestinians. If we think we can do better than all of the middle eastern leaders who've tried to fix this, over the span of several decades, we are either dumb or narcissistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

Let me help you understand.
The attack suffered by Israel on 10/7 is why we are where we are. There would be no war in Israel had it not been for this brutal attack. These savages didn't attack the military as a government would do in a legitimate war. No, they went after civilians who had no defense. They went after women and children. They shot them. They beheaded some. They tortured many. They raped some. They burned them alive. They bombed some. And, they baked babies in an oven.
These are not the actions of "normal" people. These are not the actions of people trying to seize land or territory. These are the actions of brutally hateful savages. These are the actions of people that have no right to walk the earth among peace loving people.
I hope people continue to remind you, and others, of the brutality that happened that day. Because so many protests today - even in the US - are in support of Hamas... the brutal savages who carried out these acts. It is the responsibility of people everywhere to continue to remind the world what these savages did and why Israel is forced to take action.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

This is exactly what you genocidal colonists want us to do - to focus on only your trauma, your grief, your pain and to dehumanize your victims in order to justify the maniacal horror you will inflict on them.

You focus only on October 7 as though the world began on that day and:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe? The IRA was arguably using the Irish as human shields - gee, shouldn't England have besieged and carpet-bombed Ireland?

You lie about Hamas not being in the West Bank.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=HAMAS'%20strength%20is%20concentrated%20in,Palestinian%20territories%20since%20the%201990s.

PP here. The post you're responding to uses some rhetoric I disagree with, but you've responded to none of the substantive points it makes. Do you have a response?

I’ve responded to the colonialist nonsense a million times on this thread and Part 1. If people still refuse to accept that Israel isn’t a colonist state, I can’t help them.

Right. I agree the colonialist language is not accurate and not helpful. I'm asking about these things below [quoting the post]:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe?

Gazans have not been given only enough food to stave off starvation. There is no evidence of this. In the last 20 years, Gaza has received BILLIONS in aid and the population has grown quite a bit. That is completely inconsistent with a population that is constantly on the brink of starvation.

I have not seen evidence confirming indiscriminate carpet bombing.

The air issue is a bit of a red herring, as Israel was working to rebuild the airport when Hamas took over and cut off discussions.

https://www.haaretz.com/2012-10-17/ty-article/.premium/israels-gaza-quota-2-279-calories-a-day/0000017f-e0f2-d7b2-a77f-e3f755550000

Here's the dirty details
https://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/publications/redlines/red-lines-presentation-eng.pdf

Israel literally counted the minimal daily caloric intake in Gaza and then fought a 3.5 year legal battle to prevent that information fro getting out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

Let me help you understand.
The attack suffered by Israel on 10/7 is why we are where we are. There would be no war in Israel had it not been for this brutal attack. These savages didn't attack the military as a government would do in a legitimate war. No, they went after civilians who had no defense. They went after women and children. They shot them. They beheaded some. They tortured many. They raped some. They burned them alive. They bombed some. And, they baked babies in an oven.
These are not the actions of "normal" people. These are not the actions of people trying to seize land or territory. These are the actions of brutally hateful savages. These are the actions of people that have no right to walk the earth among peace loving people.
I hope people continue to remind you, and others, of the brutality that happened that day. Because so many protests today - even in the US - are in support of Hamas... the brutal savages who carried out these acts. It is the responsibility of people everywhere to continue to remind the world what these savages did and why Israel is forced to take action.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

This is exactly what you genocidal colonists want us to do - to focus on only your trauma, your grief, your pain and to dehumanize your victims in order to justify the maniacal horror you will inflict on them.

You focus only on October 7 as though the world began on that day and:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe? The IRA was arguably using the Irish as human shields - gee, shouldn't England have besieged and carpet-bombed Ireland?

You lie about Hamas not being in the West Bank.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=HAMAS'%20strength%20is%20concentrated%20in,Palestinian%20territories%20since%20the%201990s.

PP here. The post you're responding to uses some rhetoric I disagree with, but you've responded to none of the substantive points it makes. Do you have a response?

I’ve responded to the colonialist nonsense a million times on this thread and Part 1. If people still refuse to accept that Israel isn’t a colonist state, I can’t help them.

To be more precise, Israel is an apartheid, colonialist-settler state.

It's the opposite of that. That area was literally colonized by the British. The Israelis moving into that area are indigenous. The Palestinians don't want to be part of Israel-- they weren't kicked out, they left. If anything, Palestine is a colonist settler apartheid state.

Yes, all the settlers pouring in from Long Island and stealing Palestinian land and homes are indigenous . . .

You really don't want to talk about the rights of indigenous people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

DP. Because the anti Israel calls came immediately after those horrific attacks. Before Israel even had time to construct a plan of response. Immediately, before the bodies were even cold, people came out against Israel. It sounds too much like support of the attacks.

That's because Israel has constantly been in conflict with Hamas.

Yes. Hamas has been bombing Israel for years. No more.

If that's the case, why has Netanyahu been giving Hamas millions of dollars in material and political support for years?

They never want to answer this question . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

DP. Because the anti Israel calls came immediately after those horrific attacks. Before Israel even had time to construct a plan of response. Immediately, before the bodies were even cold, people came out against Israel. It sounds too much like support of the attacks.

That's because Israel has constantly been in conflict with Hamas.

Yes. Hamas has been bombing Israel for years. No more.

If that's the case, why has Netanyahu been giving Hamas millions of dollars in material and political support for years?

They never want to answer this question . . .

The answer is obvious. Both Netanyahu and Hamas agree with the current political arrangement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

DP. Because the anti Israel calls came immediately after those horrific attacks. Before Israel even had time to construct a plan of response. Immediately, before the bodies were even cold, people came out against Israel. It sounds too much like support of the attacks.

That's because Israel has constantly been in conflict with Hamas.

Yes. Hamas has been bombing Israel for years. No more.

If that's the case, why has Netanyahu been giving Hamas millions of dollars in material and political support for years?

They never want to answer this question . . .

I am not certain of the validity of this statement, but might it be the naive belief that the money would go to the betterment of the Palestinian people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

Let me help you understand.
The attack suffered by Israel on 10/7 is why we are where we are. There would be no war in Israel had it not been for this brutal attack. These savages didn't attack the military as a government would do in a legitimate war. No, they went after civilians who had no defense. They went after women and children. They shot them. They beheaded some. They tortured many. They raped some. They burned them alive. They bombed some. And, they baked babies in an oven.
These are not the actions of "normal" people. These are not the actions of people trying to seize land or territory. These are the actions of brutally hateful savages. These are the actions of people that have no right to walk the earth among peace loving people.
I hope people continue to remind you, and others, of the brutality that happened that day. Because so many protests today - even in the US - are in support of Hamas... the brutal savages who carried out these acts. It is the responsibility of people everywhere to continue to remind the world what these savages did and why Israel is forced to take action.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

DP - I have not seen a single protest in the U.S. supportive of Hamas. I am sympathetic of the Israeli victims, but the lies being spread about how everyone who objects to Israel's bombing innocent civilians is a Hamas supporter are ridiculous.

+2. And moreover, the only protests I'm hearing are in support of PALESTINIANS.
I also object to anyone who doesn't accept the Israeli POV being named antisemitic, which I've seen on here. There can be no conversation when that is the starting position. Are some people? Even many people? 100%. But you can't say "if you don't agree with Israel, you are antisemitic."

I have not personally seen any of the things directed towards Jews that are stated on here. But, if they are happening, I would hope we can all agree they shouldn't and that I hope the perps are caught.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone had this thought. If this is really what the younger generation is like would Jewish people even have support in the US in two to three generation. Easy to scoff at these college students but they are technically the leaders of tomorrow.

I'm a millennial who is pro-Palestine and not particularly supportive of the Israeli government (certainly not this one) and absolutely think the United States should dial back its political and financial support to the state of Israel. And I will vote for it, to the extent that I have a choice (not in 2024, obviously).

I'm not sure what your comment means. I have no problem with Jewish people as a whole, and to the extent that anyone is antisemitic or Jewish people are victims of hate speech/crimes, I totally condemn that and believe that should be prosecuted. I don't think advocating for the withdrawal of U.S. support to the state of Israel, as a consistent part of U.S. foreign policy, is baseline antisemitic. Perhaps some people advocate that for antisemitic reasons, but I just think it is bad foreign policy.

If you conflate those two things, than we have a fundamental disagreement on worldview. That's not my issue to solve.

Surely you understand that stateless nations are problematic for everyone. Look at the Kurds. They are a nation that has no official state. This has caused them to be attacked, famously with chemical weapons. They are also attackers, historically using terrorism for political violence. Right now, Israelis have a state. And, they have agreed to allow the state of Palestine to operate independently on land that officially belongs to Israel. Israel even foots the bill for all utilities that Palestine uses.

Why isn't this enough? Surely you understand that kicking Israelis out and leaving them stateless would harm all involved. Palestine has practically no governance and Israel has to take care of the people in Palestine. If we say, okay, let's kick out all the Jews and cede all of Israel to a terrorist organization, how do you think that will turn out? And what we would do about the nuclear bombs that Israel has? Turn that over to hamas, too? The so-called pro Palestine movement will be a bit like the dog that caught the car. This is not an outcome that will help actual Palestinians.

I agree that stateless nations are a problem for everyone. I also believe that the existence of the current Israel/Palestine situation is a problem for everyone (see, e.g. the current conflict - a major humanitarian problem for Gaza, potentially a regional conflict, and a major optics problem for the U.S., whose patron state is committing war crimes that we are, for some reason, defending in public).

The U.S. protecting this status quo through its policy of "support for Israel" (in its current form), is in my opinion bad policy. Either we need to (1) put our money where our mouth is and forcefully advocate for/broker a legitimate two-state solution in which Palestine is a real state with full control and sovereignty over its land, which would also require massive foreign aid to build out infrastructure and institutions so that it actually can be a functioning state; or (2) put enormous pressure on Israel to absorb Palestinians into the country as full, voting citizens with rights, who are treated well, educated properly, and supported in every way by the state. That might mean that Israel is no longer an ethnoreligious state but a multiethnic democracy. It can be done. And, while I hear the arguments that the Jewish people should have their own state, I don't think that is possible or good policy when it comes at the expense of subjugating a population of 2 million Palestinians.

Obviously these options aren't simple. There are a ton of issues to work out, and I realize that neither side is solely a victim or solely an aggressor, and obviously at this point they hate each other. I think either would eventually be preferable to what is going on right now, and I really hate that the U.S.'s policy is to blindly support the Israeli government as though they can do no wrong. It is bad policy for the American people.

Please educate yourself on the history of the region.

Why does the United States have to do what you want it to do? You make it sound like an imperative or moral obligation. And you dare to ask us to build your nation up by scratch financially? You don’t even like our country anyway you just want to use us so no thank you. We support Israel and that is our choice.

I'm an American citizen and an American taxpayer just as much as you are, and it's equally my right to speak up about what I see to be the moral obligations of my government, protest USG policy I don't like, and vote and advocate for policy I do like, as it is yours. And I do not have Palestinian heritage. I am very glad that demographic and generational change is making it more likely that the longstanding USG policy toward Israel will change. I will vote for that.

The anti Israeli protesters are suggesting fairly significant involvement in the middle east. A lot more people will die if we try to restructure the region and chase out the Jews. I don't even see your position as being sympathetic toward middle eastern civilians. It's really only helpful to terrorist groups seeking control.

I never suggested "chas[ing] out the Jews." I recognize that there are people who advocate for that, but they're pretty clearly not serious people. I think we need to leverage the resources we provide to Israel by requiring that they actually, in good faith, participate in a two-state solution that creates a functional Palestinian state or integrate the Palestinian population into their country as full citizens with full rights. I am willing to allocate foreign aid and resources to this. I do not want to allocate cash and in-kind military support to Israel in the form we are providing now, i.e., no strings.

They've tried. They've offered a ton of deals to the Palestinians. If we think we can do better than all of the middle eastern leaders who've tried to fix this, over the span of several decades, we are either dumb or narcissistic.

Then they need to offer better deals. And I think that we [the U.S.] should use our leverage, aka the $3B+ in annual foreign aid that we spend on Israel, to encourage the Israeli government to do this. And cut it off if they do not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This tiny postage stamp of a country divides the world. People who don’t see the biblical significance of this crack me up.

Do you have a citation? I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says the modern nation of Israel "divides the world". If you don't have proof, please don't bring religious arguments into this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

Let me help you understand.
The attack suffered by Israel on 10/7 is why we are where we are. There would be no war in Israel had it not been for this brutal attack. These savages didn't attack the military as a government would do in a legitimate war. No, they went after civilians who had no defense. They went after women and children. They shot them. They beheaded some. They tortured many. They raped some. They burned them alive. They bombed some. And, they baked babies in an oven.
These are not the actions of "normal" people. These are not the actions of people trying to seize land or territory. These are the actions of brutally hateful savages. These are the actions of people that have no right to walk the earth among peace loving people.
I hope people continue to remind you, and others, of the brutality that happened that day. Because so many protests today - even in the US - are in support of Hamas... the brutal savages who carried out these acts. It is the responsibility of people everywhere to continue to remind the world what these savages did and why Israel is forced to take action.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

This is exactly what you genocidal colonists want us to do - to focus on only your trauma, your grief, your pain and to dehumanize your victims in order to justify the maniacal horror you will inflict on them.

You focus only on October 7 as though the world began on that day and:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe? The IRA was arguably using the Irish as human shields - gee, shouldn't England have besieged and carpet-bombed Ireland?

You lie about Hamas not being in the West Bank.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=HAMAS'%20strength%20is%20concentrated%20in,Palestinian%20territories%20since%20the%201990s.

PP here. The post you're responding to uses some rhetoric I disagree with, but you've responded to none of the substantive points it makes. Do you have a response?

I’ve responded to the colonialist nonsense a million times on this thread and Part 1. If people still refuse to accept that Israel isn’t a colonist state, I can’t help them.

To be more precise, Israel is an apartheid, colonialist-settler state.

It's the opposite of that. That area was literally colonized by the British. The Israelis moving into that area are indigenous. The Palestinians don't want to be part of Israel-- they weren't kicked out, they left. If anything, Palestine is a colonist settler apartheid state.

I mean, just as someone looking from the outside over my lifetime . . . I don't care who was there first. I don't care about who has biblical claims to what. The history is a mess over there and has been in a constant state of war, disagreement, terror . . . . and I don't know who is 100% to blame or, more importantly, how that gets fixed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

Let me help you understand.
The attack suffered by Israel on 10/7 is why we are where we are. There would be no war in Israel had it not been for this brutal attack. These savages didn't attack the military as a government would do in a legitimate war. No, they went after civilians who had no defense. They went after women and children. They shot them. They beheaded some. They tortured many. They raped some. They burned them alive. They bombed some. And, they baked babies in an oven.
These are not the actions of "normal" people. These are not the actions of people trying to seize land or territory. These are the actions of brutally hateful savages. These are the actions of people that have no right to walk the earth among peace loving people.
I hope people continue to remind you, and others, of the brutality that happened that day. Because so many protests today - even in the US - are in support of Hamas... the brutal savages who carried out these acts. It is the responsibility of people everywhere to continue to remind the world what these savages did and why Israel is forced to take action.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

This is exactly what you genocidal colonists want us to do - to focus on only your trauma, your grief, your pain and to dehumanize your victims in order to justify the maniacal horror you will inflict on them.

You focus only on October 7 as though the world began on that day and:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe? The IRA was arguably using the Irish as human shields - gee, shouldn't England have besieged and carpet-bombed Ireland?

You lie about Hamas not being in the West Bank.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=HAMAS'%20strength%20is%20concentrated%20in,Palestinian%20territories%20since%20the%201990s.

PP here. The post you're responding to uses some rhetoric I disagree with, but you've responded to none of the substantive points it makes. Do you have a response?

I’ve responded to the colonialist nonsense a million times on this thread and Part 1. If people still refuse to accept that Israel isn’t a colonist state, I can’t help them.

Right. I agree the colonialist language is not accurate and not helpful. I'm asking about these things below [quoting the post]:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe?

DP.

Not one word about the Palestinian pogroms against the Jews BEFORE Israel was even founded?

Not one word about the Palestinian leadership's collaboration with Hitler and attempts to eliminate the Jewish people?

Not one word about the Palestinian rejection of UN resolution 181 and the initial two-state solution?

Not one word about the attempts to obliterate Israel for the 75 years since the day of its founding?

Not one word about the 75 years of brutal Palestinian terrorist attacks directed at civilians? (Entebbe, Munich, Achille Lauro, etc.)

Etc., etc., etc.

This all belongs in the other thread. But telling that your hatred is so strong that you brought it here.

You have no support for a single thing you've posted but even IF it were true, Palestine has the right to defend itself against an occupying force. Or is Israel the only actor with the right to defend itself.

As for Hitler, it's Germans not Palestinians who slaughtered 6 million Jews - what is Israel doing about the Germans?

I take it you don't know your history?

You want to discuss the details, bring it to the other thread.

In the meantime, Google is your friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much worse it can get? What "worse" are we waiting for?

Speaking at Shura, Weisberg described in graphic detail how one badly charred body turned out to be two victims – a mother and a baby bound together in a deep embrace.

Another victim, he said, was a pregnant woman, her stomach cut open, her fetus pulled out and beheaded. The umbilical cord was still attached.

"When you think about evil, you realize it is beyond comprehension when you see what this terror organization did," the rabbi said.

"I’ve seen things that no one should ever see," said Shari, describing how many of the dead women arrived still wearing their pajamas, their heads blown off and some booby-trapped with grenades.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari stated. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis… and this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

We understand that horrible, inhuman, brutal acts were committed against innocent Israeli victims during the terrorist attack. Serious people do not deny this. Anyone who cheers this or thinks it was somehow deserved is a broken, twisted, horrible person.

But I am really not sure why PPs keep rehashing the brutalities of 10/7 here. What's the purpose? These people were victims of a horrible terrorist attack. There have been many horrible terrorist attacks, war crimes, etc. committed against all stripes of people throughout history. It is horrible and it should be condemned. What else are you saying beyond that?

Let me help you understand.
The attack suffered by Israel on 10/7 is why we are where we are. There would be no war in Israel had it not been for this brutal attack. These savages didn't attack the military as a government would do in a legitimate war. No, they went after civilians who had no defense. They went after women and children. They shot them. They beheaded some. They tortured many. They raped some. They burned them alive. They bombed some. And, they baked babies in an oven.
These are not the actions of "normal" people. These are not the actions of people trying to seize land or territory. These are the actions of brutally hateful savages. These are the actions of people that have no right to walk the earth among peace loving people.
I hope people continue to remind you, and others, of the brutality that happened that day. Because so many protests today - even in the US - are in support of Hamas... the brutal savages who carried out these acts. It is the responsibility of people everywhere to continue to remind the world what these savages did and why Israel is forced to take action.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

This is exactly what you genocidal colonists want us to do - to focus on only your trauma, your grief, your pain and to dehumanize your victims in order to justify the maniacal horror you will inflict on them.

You focus only on October 7 as though the world began on that day and:

Not one word from you about Israel's brutal oppression, murder, and dispossession of the Palestinian people over the last 75 years.

Not one word about the FACT that Israel has blockaded Gaza by land, sea, and air for the last 20 years, only allowing in enough calories per Gazan to prevent starvation and not one calorie more.

Not one word about the IDF-sponsored murder and torture of Palestinians and land theft in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.

Not one word about the 3500 Palestinian children and 1000 buried under rubble due to Israel's indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza.

Not one word about the FACT that Netanyahu gave financial and political support to Hamas in order to destabilize any attempts to establish a functional state. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all who IGNORED intelligence warnings about the 10/7 attacks and didn't send help to besieged Israelis for SIX hours. Netanyahu is the biggest Hamas lover of all - anything to say about that?

And how exactly will dropping a Hiroshima-load of bombs on Gaza keep the hostages safe? The IRA was arguably using the Irish as human shields - gee, shouldn't England have besieged and carpet-bombed Ireland?

You lie about Hamas not being in the West Bank.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=HAMAS'%20strength%20is%20concentrated%20in,Palestinian%20territories%20since%20the%201990s.

PP here. The post you're responding to uses some rhetoric I disagree with, but you've responded to none of the substantive points it makes. Do you have a response?

I’ve responded to the colonialist nonsense a million times on this thread and Part 1. If people still refuse to accept that Israel isn’t a colonist state, I can’t help them.

To be more precise, Israel is an apartheid, colonialist-settler state.

It's the opposite of that. That area was literally colonized by the British. The Israelis moving into that area are indigenous. The Palestinians don't want to be part of Israel-- they weren't kicked out, they left. If anything, Palestine is a colonist settler apartheid state.

I mean, just as someone looking from the outside over my lifetime . . . I don't care who was there first. I don't care about who has biblical claims to what. The history is a mess over there and has been in a constant state of war, disagreement, terror . . . . and I don't know who is 100% to blame or, more importantly, how that gets fixed.

I'm responding to the bizarre claim that Israel is a colonial settler state. It was literally an act of decolonization.