Tenley Chick Filet takes measures against loitering after school by students, including Wilson

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I got a little curious about whether there is any actual objective data suggesting a link between Wilson students after school activities and crime rates, and the related question discussed here about whether any crimes being committed can be linked in any objective statistical sense to OOB students. There are lots of stories from people posting here, and several newspaper articles about Wilson students getting into trouble, but those are all just anecdotes. I spent 20 minutes looking for data. I found no definitive answers, but here is some data in case anyone wants to take it further ...

1. Crime does seem higher around Wilson/Tenleytown than around other Metro stops closer to downtown. The DC Crime Map of police reports (http://crimemap.dc.gov/Report.aspx) shows 223 crimes reported within 1500 feet of Wilson/Tenleytown in the past year. That's markedly higher than the two Metro stops south on the red line: Van Ness (120 crimes) and Cleveland Park (93 crimes). This doesn't prove, of course, that it's Wilson students committing these crimes. I suppose the Tenleytown area might be particularly attractive to criminals because of the stores there, so maybe lots of people commute to Tenleytown to commit crimes. But I do think it's a fair assumption that the large number of young people drown to Tenleytown by Wilson might add somewhat to the extra level of crime.

2. Crime in the Tenleytown area does seem a little more likely in the hours after school lets out than in other times of day. I downloaded and sorted the crimes by time of day. Out of 141 total crimes within 1500 feet of Wilson during the nine months covering last school year (Sept 1 - May 31), 32% (45 crimes) were reported in the hours right before and after Wilson students were (in theory) in school (8-9am + 3-6pm). As a comparison, that's more crime than was reported in the 7pm-midnight hours (38 crimes, or 27%).

3. Juveniles committing crimes in the PSA area around Wilson/Tenleytown, are generally not living in the upper NWDC area. I looked at the juvenile arrest statistics from 2015 for the 202 PSA, which is the one around Wilson/Tenleytown (http://mpdc.dc.gov/page/biannual-reports-juvenile-arrests). In total, 31 juveniles were arrested in the 202 PSA in 2015. Of those 31 arrested juveniles, none of them were living in the 202 PSA around Tenleytown. Only two arrested juveniles were from any of the PSAs in what I think of as upper NWDC (basically the area west of the park and north of Dupont Circle). The other 29 (94%) were mostly from various other parts of DC, with a few from out of state.

None of this is at all definitive. There are plenty of gaps in this data, so it's certainly possible there are alternative explanations or confounding factors. But this is the only data I could find.

If others have better data, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I think the focus on OOB is wrong and distract from the real issue. Bad behavior should not be tolerated and whoever is responsible should be punished and possibly re-educated so he/she can become a good and productive member of society, regardless of color, SES, IB or OOB status. the OOB status may be relevant for Wilson students only because if a kid misbehave badly and the kid is OOB, he/she can be sent back to the IB school (this should not be the end of the story, we still have a young teenager who is having issues and DCPS and child protective services should figure out what is wrong and how to help that person to change and grow into a responsible and independent adult) and at least for Wilson and the TT are the problem would be solved. the data above are interesting but do not link Wilson to crime for me. Van Ness is a dead area (I lived there), Cleveland Park is very small, while TT has a lot of businesses, eating places and the large stores like Best Buy and wholefoods, a lot more people with money and CC walking around plus a lot of schools (Wilson but also Deal and GD). this explain why there is more crime to me, more victims available and thus more criminals around. the data about the juveniles arrested does not say how many of them were Wilson students. young criminals have tried in the past to escape by mingling with Wilson students, if I remember the three young men who assaulted and robbed the GD student earlier this year were not Wilson students, same for the people who stubbed the Wilson student on this way to school. my impression is that the crime is separated from the school. the behavior described (swearing, spitting, shoveling and so on) normally does not result in any criminal action. So again, let's focus on convey the message that bad behavior is not acceptable and will not be tolerated (the kids are kids posters, this is the city, move to Potomac you uptight old rag are probably the parents of the misbehaving kids) regardless of who the culprit is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race clouds everyone's response to this - it seems. Maybe some people are concerned with boisterousness in black kids where they wouldn't be concerned with wthite kids. But some people take it the other way and just assume that it's only white people being racist and that there is no way that there are real problems that cross the line sometimes too.

The difference is that when I see white kids behaving this way, and I mostly never do, I tell them to stop it and behave themselves. When I see black kids I can't say this because I am not trying to correct bad behavior, I will be seen as a "racist." See what throwing around the race card does to people, it makes us treat people differently.

+1.

This whole racial thing is just a massive red herring.

Look at the data posted by PP above. Out of 31 arrested juveniles, 29 seem to be OOB.

THAT is the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The teenaged sow who heaved a drink out her passenger window at another car didn't impress me much. Apparently she grew up in a barn instead of a house, which is surprising for the inner city. The troglodyte students who can't behave like well-bred human beings are scary.

Fixed that for you.

No you didn't, so I fixed it back.

You are so deliberately deceptive you should be a part of her liar-in-chief's campaign. You're trying to excuse bad behavior by deflecting blame. It's a nifty little trick. Whenever someone makes a legitimate complaint about retrograde assh*les? Just call them a racist! Problem solved. Then the onus is supposed to shift to them to defend themselves. And the assh*les and proto-criminals you are trying to protect get to skate away.

You're stupid enough to fall for this guano, but I am not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race clouds everyone's response to this - it seems. Maybe some people are concerned with boisterousness in black kids where they wouldn't be concerned with wthite kids. But some people take it the other way and just assume that it's only white people being racist and that there is no way that there are real problems that cross the line sometimes too.

The difference is that when I see white kids behaving this way, and I mostly never do, I tell them to stop it and behave themselves. When I see black kids I can't say this because I am not trying to correct bad behavior, I will be seen as a "racist." See what throwing around the race card does to people, it makes us treat people differently.

+1.

This whole racial thing is just a massive red herring.

Look at the data posted by PP above. Out of 31 arrested juveniles, 29 seem to be OOB.

THAT is the problem.

you are misreading the data. our of 31 juveniles arrested in TT, 29 did not leave in the area. as far as we know none of them might have gone to Wilson. these are criminals that come from other parts of town or from outside of DC to do crime and chose an area with nice stores and people walking around unarmed and with money and CC, and nice homes/cars. it still does not say anything about OOB at Wilson, and again, the focus should be on behavior and consequences. simply labeling OOB as the bad kids and then doing nothing against who misbehave is unfair and stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race clouds everyone's response to this - it seems. Maybe some people are concerned with boisterousness in black kids where they wouldn't be concerned with wthite kids. But some people take it the other way and just assume that it's only white people being racist and that there is no way that there are real problems that cross the line sometimes too.

The difference is that when I see white kids behaving this way, and I mostly never do, I tell them to stop it and behave themselves. When I see black kids I can't say this because I am not trying to correct bad behavior, I will be seen as a "racist." See what throwing around the race card does to people, it makes us treat people differently.

+1.

This whole racial thing is just a massive red herring.

Look at the data posted by PP above. Out of 31 arrested juveniles, 29 seem to be OOB.

THAT is the problem.

you are misreading the data. our of 31 juveniles arrested in TT, 29 did not leave in the area. as far as we know none of them might have gone to Wilson. these are criminals that come from other parts of town or from outside of DC to do crime and chose an area with nice stores and people walking around unarmed and with money and CC, and nice homes/cars. it still does not say anything about OOB at Wilson, and again, the focus should be on behavior and consequences. simply labeling OOB as the bad kids and then doing nothing against who misbehave is unfair and stupid.

This. We had a suspect arrested this week for burglary in our NW neighborhood. He was from Bowie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race clouds everyone's response to this - it seems. Maybe some people are concerned with boisterousness in black kids where they wouldn't be concerned with wthite kids. But some people take it the other way and just assume that it's only white people being racist and that there is no way that there are real problems that cross the line sometimes too.

The difference is that when I see white kids behaving this way, and I mostly never do, I tell them to stop it and behave themselves. When I see black kids I can't say this because I am not trying to correct bad behavior, I will be seen as a "racist." See what throwing around the race card does to people, it makes us treat people differently.

+1.

This whole racial thing is just a massive red herring.

Look at the data posted by PP above. Out of 31 arrested juveniles, 29 seem to be OOB.

THAT is the problem.

you are misreading the data. our of 31 juveniles arrested in TT, 29 did not leave in the area. as far as we know none of them might have gone to Wilson. these are criminals that come from other parts of town or from outside of DC to do crime and chose an area with nice stores and people walking around unarmed and with money and CC, and nice homes/cars. it still does not say anything about OOB at Wilson, and again, the focus should be on behavior and consequences. simply labeling OOB as the bad kids and then doing nothing against who misbehave is unfair and stupid.

chaos begets chaos. Starting with the visible, known chaos seems a good idea. An increased police presence and a community coordinating with local institutions can only deter outside crime coming in. How do the police respond to the fact that there is double the crime? More patrols? A permanent presence? Can we have cameras? Are lights appropriately installed? Is wmata policing cooperating? Have they upgraded the cameras in metro? These statistics are compelling and if we have this outside crime coming in we certainly dont need to compound it with teenage nuisance crime.

[Anonymous]

our of 31 juveniles arrested in TT, 29 did not leave in the area. as far as we know none of them might have gone to Wilson. these are criminals that come from other parts of town or from outside of DC to do crime and chose an area with nice stores and people walking around unarmed and with money and CC, and nice homes/cars. it still does not say anything about OOB at Wilson, and again, the focus should be on behavior and consequences. simply labeling OOB as the bad kids and then doing nothing against who misbehave is unfair and stupid.

I agree with you that the focus should be on behavior and consequences. But you have no basis to say none of these juvenile arrests might have attended Wilson; it's just as likely every one of them attended Wilson. Just because we each can make up a fictional narrative to discount the data doesn't mean those fictional narratives have any validity.

[Anonymous]

At least three non-Wilson juveniles from outside the neighborhood were arrested this year for robbing Wilson students at knifepoint. At least one other non-Wilson juvenile was arrested after committing a crime in Tenleytown and then trying to hide at Wilson -- where Wilson kids pointed him out to police. I believe (though I'm not sure) other involved juveniles were subsequently arrested.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race clouds everyone's response to this - it seems. Maybe some people are concerned with boisterousness in black kids where they wouldn't be concerned with wthite kids. But some people take it the other way and just assume that it's only white people being racist and that there is no way that there are real problems that cross the line sometimes too.

The difference is that when I see white kids behaving this way, and I mostly never do, I tell them to stop it and behave themselves. When I see black kids I can't say this because I am not trying to correct bad behavior, I will be seen as a "racist." See what throwing around the race card does to people, it makes us treat people differently.

+1.

This whole racial thing is just a massive red herring.

Look at the data posted by PP above. Out of 31 arrested juveniles, 29 seem to be OOB.

THAT is the problem.

you are misreading the data. our of 31 juveniles arrested in TT, 29 did not leave in the area. as far as we know none of them might have gone to Wilson. these are criminals that come from other parts of town or from outside of DC to do crime and chose an area with nice stores and people walking around unarmed and with money and CC, and nice homes/cars. it still does not say anything about OOB at Wilson, and again, the focus should be on behavior and consequences. simply labeling OOB as the bad kids and then doing nothing against who misbehave is unfair and stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fascinating. Thank you for spending the time to throw in some facts. I think the basic ask from the immediate community for more partnership with the school and police in terms of maintaining a safe and civil shared space for all is bolstered by this.

Amen to this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At least three non-Wilson juveniles from outside the neighborhood were arrested this year for robbing Wilson students at knifepoint. At least one other non-Wilson juvenile was arrested after committing a crime in Tenleytown and then trying to hide at Wilson -- where Wilson kids pointed him out to police. I believe (though I'm not sure) other involved juveniles were subsequently arrested.

That's nice. But the most recent juvenile arrest data available from MPD is for 2015, so none of those you cite are relevant to the data. We might get more info about those recent arrests when MPD publishes the 2016 data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I got a little curious about whether there is any actual objective data suggesting a link between Wilson students after school activities and crime rates, and the related question discussed here about whether any crimes being committed can be linked in any objective statistical sense to OOB students. There are lots of stories from people posting here, and several newspaper articles about Wilson students getting into trouble, but those are all just anecdotes. I spent 20 minutes looking for data. I found no definitive answers, but here is some data in case anyone wants to take it further ...

1. Crime does seem higher around Wilson/Tenleytown than around other Metro stops closer to downtown. The DC Crime Map of police reports (http://crimemap.dc.gov/Report.aspx) shows 223 crimes reported within 1500 feet of Wilson/Tenleytown in the past year. That's markedly higher than the two Metro stops south on the red line: Van Ness (120 crimes) and Cleveland Park (93 crimes). This doesn't prove, of course, that it's Wilson students committing these crimes. I suppose the Tenleytown area might be particularly attractive to criminals because of the stores there, so maybe lots of people commute to Tenleytown to commit crimes. But I do think it's a fair assumption that the large number of young people drown to Tenleytown by Wilson might add somewhat to the extra level of crime.

2. Crime in the Tenleytown area does seem a little more likely in the hours after school lets out than in other times of day. I downloaded and sorted the crimes by time of day. Out of 141 total crimes within 1500 feet of Wilson during the nine months covering last school year (Sept 1 - May 31), 32% (45 crimes) were reported in the hours right before and after Wilson students were (in theory) in school (8-9am + 3-6pm). As a comparison, that's more crime than was reported in the 7pm-midnight hours (38 crimes, or 27%).

3. Juveniles committing crimes in the PSA area around Wilson/Tenleytown, are generally not living in the upper NWDC area. I looked at the juvenile arrest statistics from 2015 for the 202 PSA, which is the one around Wilson/Tenleytown (http://mpdc.dc.gov/page/biannual-reports-juvenile-arrests). In total, 31 juveniles were arrested in the 202 PSA in 2015. Of those 31 arrested juveniles, none of them were living in the 202 PSA around Tenleytown. Only two arrested juveniles were from any of the PSAs in what I think of as upper NWDC (basically the area west of the park and north of Dupont Circle). The other 29 (94%) were mostly from various other parts of DC, with a few from out of state.

None of this is at all definitive. There are plenty of gaps in this data, so it's certainly possible there are alternative explanations or confounding factors. But this is the only data I could find.

If others have better data, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Point 3 is huge. In other words, if people not from Tenleytown did not go there, 94% of the crime would not take place.

And we wonder why neighbors up there are concerned about seeing non-familiar faces?

[Anonymous]

The information cited undercuts the assertion made, either implicitly or explicitly, by several posters, that juvenile crime in PSA 202 is should be presumed to be perpetrated by Wilson students.

I suspect that of juvenile arrestees who do go to Wilson, many were involved in crimes that in the past were not prosecuted criminally, such as fistfights between students.

But the claim that juvenile crime in Tenleytown is ascribable, or almost-entirely ascribable, to Wilson students, is highly suspect.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At least three non-Wilson juveniles from outside the neighborhood were arrested this year for robbing Wilson students at knifepoint. At least one other non-Wilson juvenile was arrested after committing a crime in Tenleytown and then trying to hide at Wilson -- where Wilson kids pointed him out to police. I believe (though I'm not sure) other involved juveniles were subsequently arrested.

That's nice. But the most recent juvenile arrest data available from MPD is for 2015, so none of those you cite are relevant to the data. We might get more info about those recent arrests when MPD publishes the 2016 data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The teenaged sow who heaved a drink out her passenger window at another car didn't impress me much. Apparently she grew up in a barn instead of a house, which is surprising for the inner city. The troglodyte students who can't behave like well-bred human beings are scary.

Fixed that for you.

No you didn't, so I fixed it back.

You are so deliberately deceptive you should be a part of her liar-in-chief's campaign. You're trying to excuse bad behavior by deflecting blame. It's a nifty little trick. Whenever someone makes a legitimate complaint about retrograde assh*les? Just call them a racist! Problem solved. Then the onus is supposed to shift to them to defend themselves. And the assh*les and proto-criminals you are trying to protect get to skate away.

You're stupid enough to fall for this guano, but I am not.

That's a lot of name calling. You seem really angry. I hope that you get some help.

For other, less angry folks who are reading this thread, I'd like to join the people who actually spend time in this area who have responded above. I am at Wilson every day after school, and I HAVE NEVER SEEN the kinds of behaviors that people in this thread are alleging. I'm not saying bad things don't happen, but what I am saying is that I have been at Wilson most weekdays after school for two years, and my interactions with Wilson kids have been wonderful. They have been helpful and polite to me and to my kids. I had real trepidation about sending my oldest to Wilson based on my own experience attending unsafe schools in the 80's, but I have been pleasantly shocked by the wonderful kids I have met there.

Are the some knuckleheads that I have not yet met? I'm sure there are. I have no doubt that there are some Wilson (and GDS, Sidwell, etc.) kids who behave badly. And the MPD officers who are there every single day can deal with any law breaking --- fully supported by me, the Wilson community and the businesses in the area. But you can glance at Wilson kids walking to and from school and see that it's not not an unsafe environment like my (all white) middle and high schools were and like I expected after reading threads on DCUM. Kids carry valuables. Small kids don't look frightened. Hell, little kids run in and out of the building all the time after school hours to use the gyms for sports. Old ladies walk in and out of the pool.

For folks who have not spent time in the area and may be wondering whether they should send their kids there, I'd urge you to come to Wilson -- come to a play, watch a ball game, come to a choir, orchestra or band concert. Stop by Panera for a pastry. It's really nothing like you would think if you just read these threads.

[Anonymous]

How many crimes committed by adults in Tenleytown involved Tenleytown residents? Probably not many. Indeed, how many crimes in most low-crime neighborhoods are perpetrated by people who live in those neighborhoods? Probably not many. Criminals have this thing about witnesses recognizing them.

So yes, we could all live in gated communities with security guards ejecting outsiders without guest passes. That would bring down crime. Of course, most outsiders don't commit crimes, and most of us like to think we can travel freely.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I got a little curious about whether there is any actual objective data suggesting a link between Wilson students after school activities and crime rates, and the related question discussed here about whether any crimes being committed can be linked in any objective statistical sense to OOB students. There are lots of stories from people posting here, and several newspaper articles about Wilson students getting into trouble, but those are all just anecdotes. I spent 20 minutes looking for data. I found no definitive answers, but here is some data in case anyone wants to take it further ...

1. Crime does seem higher around Wilson/Tenleytown than around other Metro stops closer to downtown. The DC Crime Map of police reports (http://crimemap.dc.gov/Report.aspx) shows 223 crimes reported within 1500 feet of Wilson/Tenleytown in the past year. That's markedly higher than the two Metro stops south on the red line: Van Ness (120 crimes) and Cleveland Park (93 crimes). This doesn't prove, of course, that it's Wilson students committing these crimes. I suppose the Tenleytown area might be particularly attractive to criminals because of the stores there, so maybe lots of people commute to Tenleytown to commit crimes. But I do think it's a fair assumption that the large number of young people drown to Tenleytown by Wilson might add somewhat to the extra level of crime.

2. Crime in the Tenleytown area does seem a little more likely in the hours after school lets out than in other times of day. I downloaded and sorted the crimes by time of day. Out of 141 total crimes within 1500 feet of Wilson during the nine months covering last school year (Sept 1 - May 31), 32% (45 crimes) were reported in the hours right before and after Wilson students were (in theory) in school (8-9am + 3-6pm). As a comparison, that's more crime than was reported in the 7pm-midnight hours (38 crimes, or 27%).

3. Juveniles committing crimes in the PSA area around Wilson/Tenleytown, are generally not living in the upper NWDC area. I looked at the juvenile arrest statistics from 2015 for the 202 PSA, which is the one around Wilson/Tenleytown (http://mpdc.dc.gov/page/biannual-reports-juvenile-arrests). In total, 31 juveniles were arrested in the 202 PSA in 2015. Of those 31 arrested juveniles, none of them were living in the 202 PSA around Tenleytown. Only two arrested juveniles were from any of the PSAs in what I think of as upper NWDC (basically the area west of the park and north of Dupont Circle). The other 29 (94%) were mostly from various other parts of DC, with a few from out of state.

None of this is at all definitive. There are plenty of gaps in this data, so it's certainly possible there are alternative explanations or confounding factors. But this is the only data I could find.

If others have better data, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Point 3 is huge. In other words, if people not from Tenleytown did not go there, 94% of the crime would not take place.

And we wonder why neighbors up there are concerned about seeing non-familiar faces?

[Anonymous]

Wow seems like Ward 3 is a warzone! Glad I live in Ward 7!