Do you think feminism has been a net positive or net negative for relationships?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can’t believe this is even being debated. Ever decent man I know is a feminist. My dad who was born in 1929 was a feminist (while also being a Republican most of his life and devout Christian). He was thrilled his daughters (and many granddaughters) got excellent educations, had productive careers, and found husbands that supported them in all this. No issues with kids in our family — he had 24 grandchildren. If you have support, it’s very possible and totally different from his mother’s generation that worked their fingers to tje bone due to lack of education and were often stuck with husbands who beat them up.
Anyone who’s complaining about feminism doesn’t really understand the alternatives. It’s like people who complain about vaccines. Learn history.

+1

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

You know the old generations of women you're referring to are still alive, right? Clearly, you don't talk to your female relatives (probably because they might say something inconvenient for your false narrative about the good old days). Those of us who talk to our grandmothers, grand aunts, and elderly women in our communities have heard all the horrible stories. Even among those who had decent husbands, not a single one would have married when she did and most would not have married whom they did if they had the choices we do today. There are so many heartbreaking stories of being forced to quit jobs at which they were succeeding, being fired when of "marriageable age," being denied an equal education, being impregnated against their will (rape!), and otherwise being forced into financial dependence and how that shaped their entire lives. Ferk you and your lies. We're showing you the middle fingers our grandmothers wish they could have waved.

The big lie is all that paid work didn't make women happier or less stressed and anxious.

That's because they are still doing the lion's share of the unpaid work. Women thought men would step up at home when women stepped up as wage earners. Instead, women are now expected to be primary parents, maintain the home, AND earn an income.

DP

That’s because ‘women’ are still making stupid choices. Why the F would they marry an idiot who doesn’t want an equal. They have the ability to be more choosy and yet they marry stupid men who don’t step up. It’s time we demand more from men and raise our sons to be better.

I did just this and cannot fathom some of the choices and lives my friends chose. The power balance has shifted, yet women are still making dumb choices as if it didn’t.

Imagine a world in which men lie about their willingness to do their share and then slow roll their selfishness after marriage.

Imagine a world where women see through this and got a man who is actually authentic and raised children who were also authentic. Expect more; get more!

Well, many of us women are not telepathic or trained FBI interrogators like you are. Sad, I know. But that's another reason why more of us are opting out of marriage: When he doesn't have a legal hold on you, you can be done with him the very day he shows his true colors. Good outcomes all around.

I’m not telepathic or trained by the FBI, although both would be cool options! I just knew what I wanted and made no secret about it. When I wasn serious about dating I got so much crap for that too!! I told people I had an agenda to fill and some men ran for the hills (thank God). I had one guy tell me he felt like he was being interviewed for a job and I said ‘being in a long term relationship will have the most impact on my career, so I take it very seriously’ - that guy didn’t last either (thank God). The guy I’ve been married to for 25 years thought my seriousness, level of education, attention to detail, and my long term agenda were good things. And in retrospect- they are! I achieved everything I set out to and became richer and more successful than I ever dreamed - so did my husband.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Which aspect of feminism are you suggesting it’s in my daughter’s best interest to roll back? The laws that keep her from being raped by her future spouse? The legal right to leave her marriage? The right to have medical treatment without her husband’s permission? Truly what am I supposed to be worrying about for her?

Did the PP ever respond to these questions?

Of course not, because its easier to complain about feminism when you don’t have to deal with facts and can just make vague assertions of doom.

Vague assertions of doom? What planet do you all live on where the future is bright?

Oh good you're still here! Could you tell me which parts of the future will be brighter for my daughter if her husband can rape her at will? If she needs his permission for lifesaving medical care? Or if she can’t have a credit card without his signature?

It’s very telling that the PP couldn’t sincerely answer these questions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe that in the year 2025 we are still casually discussing whether treating women the same as men was a good idea.

Yes, this thread is disgusting.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Which aspect of feminism are you suggesting it’s in my daughter’s best interest to roll back? The laws that keep her from being raped by her future spouse? The legal right to leave her marriage? The right to have medical treatment without her husband’s permission? Truly what am I supposed to be worrying about for her?

Did the PP ever respond to these questions?

Of course not, because its easier to complain about feminism when you don’t have to deal with facts and can just make vague assertions of doom.

Vague assertions of doom? What planet do you all live on where the future is bright?

Oh good you're still here! Could you tell me which parts of the future will be brighter for my daughter if her husband can rape her at will? If she needs his permission for lifesaving medical care? Or if she can’t have a credit card without his signature?

Your daughter won't get married so it's really irrelevant this fake rape scenario. Our daughters will all be single, working their fingers to the bone in a purposeless life, wondering what the point of life is.

OK so…why do you think her future is better if my husband has to sign for her credit card after she’s an adult?

You can keep trying to make up new scenarios but the train has left the station. In the future, marriages will be rare and it will be every person for themselves. If you think that's great, then good for yuo.

It’s not a new scenario, its the same scenario but I’m meeting you in your own apocalypse. If you roll back feminism, my daughter still doesn’t have legal rights. Why is that better?

And, why would her marriage prospects improve if she needed her husband’s signature on a credit card application? What is it about that you believe men find so appealing?

If you're not able to discuss unintended consequences of feminism then you're not really having a good faith conversation.

Unintended consequences like what? Freedom to leave abusers? Males getting prosecuted for raping their wives? Yes, I do think someone like you would hate that women have choices that lead to safety.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Which aspect of feminism are you suggesting it’s in my daughter’s best interest to roll back? The laws that keep her from being raped by her future spouse? The legal right to leave her marriage? The right to have medical treatment without her husband’s permission? Truly what am I supposed to be worrying about for her?

Did the PP ever respond to these questions?

Of course not, because its easier to complain about feminism when you don’t have to deal with facts and can just make vague assertions of doom.

Vague assertions of doom? What planet do you all live on where the future is bright?

Oh good you're still here! Could you tell me which parts of the future will be brighter for my daughter if her husband can rape her at will? If she needs his permission for lifesaving medical care? Or if she can’t have a credit card without his signature?

Your daughter won't get married so it's really irrelevant this fake rape scenario. Our daughters will all be single, working their fingers to the bone in a purposeless life, wondering what the point of life is.

OK so…why do you think her future is better if my husband has to sign for her credit card after she’s an adult?

You can keep trying to make up new scenarios but the train has left the station. In the future, marriages will be rare and it will be every person for themselves. If you think that's great, then good for yuo.

It’s not a new scenario, its the same scenario but I’m meeting you in your own apocalypse. If you roll back feminism, my daughter still doesn’t have legal rights. Why is that better?

And, why would her marriage prospects improve if she needed her husband’s signature on a credit card application? What is it about that you believe men find so appealing?

If you're not able to discuss unintended consequences of feminism then you're not really having a good faith conversation.

This is rich from someone who could not articulate a single improvement to a child’s future if feminism’s achievements were undone.

If truly your argument is, more men would want to marry if they could rape, financially oppress, and medically “own” their spouse at will, I think you’re making a compelling case FOR feminism and not against it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Which aspect of feminism are you suggesting it’s in my daughter’s best interest to roll back? The laws that keep her from being raped by her future spouse? The legal right to leave her marriage? The right to have medical treatment without her husband’s permission? Truly what am I supposed to be worrying about for her?

Did the PP ever respond to these questions?

Of course not, because its easier to complain about feminism when you don’t have to deal with facts and can just make vague assertions of doom.

Vague assertions of doom? What planet do you all live on where the future is bright?

Oh good you're still here! Could you tell me which parts of the future will be brighter for my daughter if her husband can rape her at will? If she needs his permission for lifesaving medical care? Or if she can’t have a credit card without his signature?

It’s very telling that the PP couldn’t sincerely answer these questions.

What’s telling is “she” won’t even try. “She” is arguing from a place where she never needs to articulate what exactly it is “feminism” has done, just that its leading to doom.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

You know the old generations of women you're referring to are still alive, right? Clearly, you don't talk to your female relatives (probably because they might say something inconvenient for your false narrative about the good old days). Those of us who talk to our grandmothers, grand aunts, and elderly women in our communities have heard all the horrible stories. Even among those who had decent husbands, not a single one would have married when she did and most would not have married whom they did if they had the choices we do today. There are so many heartbreaking stories of being forced to quit jobs at which they were succeeding, being fired when of "marriageable age," being denied an equal education, being impregnated against their will (rape!), and otherwise being forced into financial dependence and how that shaped their entire lives. Ferk you and your lies. We're showing you the middle fingers our grandmothers wish they could have waved.

The big lie is all that paid work didn't make women happier or less stressed and anxious.

That's because they are still doing the lion's share of the unpaid work. Women thought men would step up at home when women stepped up as wage earners. Instead, women are now expected to be primary parents, maintain the home, AND earn an income.

DP

That’s because ‘women’ are still making stupid choices. Why the F would they marry an idiot who doesn’t want an equal. They have the ability to be more choosy and yet they marry stupid men who don’t step up. It’s time we demand more from men and raise our sons to be better.

I did just this and cannot fathom some of the choices and lives my friends chose. The power balance has shifted, yet women are still making dumb choices as if it didn’t.

Imagine a world in which men lie about their willingness to do their share and then slow roll their selfishness after marriage.

Imagine a world where women see through this and got a man who is actually authentic and raised children who were also authentic. Expect more; get more!

Well, many of us women are not telepathic or trained FBI interrogators like you are. Sad, I know. But that's another reason why more of us are opting out of marriage: When he doesn't have a legal hold on you, you can be done with him the very day he shows his true colors. Good outcomes all around.

I’m not telepathic or trained by the FBI, although both would be cool options! I just knew what I wanted and made no secret about it. When I wasn serious about dating I got so much crap for that too!! I told people I had an agenda to fill and some men ran for the hills (thank God). I had one guy tell me he felt like he was being interviewed for a job and I said ‘being in a long term relationship will have the most impact on my career, so I take it very seriously’ - that guy didn’t last either (thank God). The guy I’ve been married to for 25 years thought my seriousness, level of education, attention to detail, and my long term agenda were good things. And in retrospect- they are! I achieved everything I set out to and became richer and more successful than I ever dreamed - so did my husband.

You are so aspirational and such a role model. Thanks for stopping by to let us know how well you're doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can’t believe this is even being debated. Ever decent man I know is a feminist. My dad who was born in 1929 was a feminist (while also being a Republican most of his life and devout Christian). He was thrilled his daughters (and many granddaughters) got excellent educations, had productive careers, and found husbands that supported them in all this. No issues with kids in our family — he had 24 grandchildren. If you have support, it’s very possible and totally different from his mother’s generation that worked their fingers to tje bone due to lack of education and were often stuck with husbands who beat them up.
Anyone who’s complaining about feminism doesn’t really understand the alternatives. It’s like people who complain about vaccines. Learn history.

+1. When my father ditched our family because he wanted to play family with the woman across the street instead, my mom had to get special permission from the local bank president to open up her own bank account. Wanting to go back to those days -- not all that long in the past -- is insanity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t believe this is even being debated. Ever decent man I know is a feminist. My dad who was born in 1929 was a feminist (while also being a Republican most of his life and devout Christian). He was thrilled his daughters (and many granddaughters) got excellent educations, had productive careers, and found husbands that supported them in all this. No issues with kids in our family — he had 24 grandchildren. If you have support, it’s very possible and totally different from his mother’s generation that worked their fingers to tje bone due to lack of education and were often stuck with husbands who beat them up.
Anyone who’s complaining about feminism doesn’t really understand the alternatives. It’s like people who complain about vaccines. Learn history.

+1. When my father ditched our family because he wanted to play family with the woman across the street instead, my mom had to get special permission from the local bank president to open up her own bank account. Wanting to go back to those days -- not all that long in the past -- is insanity.

This is a genuine problem. Students are not taught how recently basic equal rights were achieved. They hear 1920s women can vote and forget how much happens since then. This whole thread is an indictment of the education in the United States.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One argument against feminism is that it has damaged the family structure. By getting rid of traditional gender roles, it has caused confusion about roles, placed unrealistic expectations on women, and pushed men away, all while prioritizing personal goals over family stability.

Gotta say, I don't see that in real life. Some people are terrible at being partners to each other and have bad personalities, but regular people don't seem to have confusion over this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me it’s been an absolute net positive. It helped me to open my eyes to how lame so many men are, and how they aren’t worth my time. Once my eyes were opened there was no turning back. No amount of propaganda in the world will turn me back. Call me a bitter old cat lady all you want. I could care less.

I live a life filled with peace and contentment. I go where I want to go, when I want to go. I have an amazing career that brings me job and pays big bucks. It’s an area that’s supposed to for men. But so what…. I like money too. I have fabulous group of friends, a beloved cat, and a boy toy to meet physical needs who I NEVER let live with me and start dirtying up my house.

Same here. 50/50 custody has allowed me to advance my career and I'm better off financially now than when I was married. Plus I'm not spending hours a week cooking and cleaning up after a man, so I have so much more free time. I have a BF who knows he needs to be a net positive in my life, and he does more for me, my kids, and my house than my xH ever did.

Reality is men don't "prioritize" marriage in the sense their marriage isn't a top priority for them. They're the main character, and everyone is there to help them out. No thanks.

What you are saying is your first husband was a dud. Reality is many men DO prioritize marriage and family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One argument against feminism is that it has damaged the family structure. By getting rid of traditional gender roles, it has caused confusion about roles, placed unrealistic expectations on women, and pushed men away, all while prioritizing personal goals over family stability.

Gotta say, I don't see that in real life. Some people are terrible at being partners to each other and have bad personalities, but regular people don't seem to have confusion over this.

Yeah aming my kid's friends, the Dads are involved and split childcare with their working wives, and are happy to talk up how smart and successful their wives are. I'm sure I'm in a bit of a NoVa bubble, but the norm around me seems to be families who are navigating this just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women have almost always worked outside the home. Took in washing and farmer and did kitchen gardens and made cheese to sell etc etc. They just couldn't own land or have their own assets and money and had to have men as heads of household (husbands or fathers or brothers). Women who can earn their own living are "dangerous" as they won't be subjugated to men's desires and birth control means they can have children on their own timeline.

Are you writing from a time machine?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me it’s been an absolute net positive. It helped me to open my eyes to how lame so many men are, and how they aren’t worth my time. Once my eyes were opened there was no turning back. No amount of propaganda in the world will turn me back. Call me a bitter old cat lady all you want. I could care less.

I live a life filled with peace and contentment. I go where I want to go, when I want to go. I have an amazing career that brings me job and pays big bucks. It’s an area that’s supposed to for men. But so what…. I like money too. I have fabulous group of friends, a beloved cat, and a boy toy to meet physical needs who I NEVER let live with me and start dirtying up my house.

Same here. 50/50 custody has allowed me to advance my career and I'm better off financially now than when I was married. Plus I'm not spending hours a week cooking and cleaning up after a man, so I have so much more free time. I have a BF who knows he needs to be a net positive in my life, and he does more for me, my kids, and my house than my xH ever did.

Reality is men don't "prioritize" marriage in the sense their marriage isn't a top priority for them. They're the main character, and everyone is there to help them out. No thanks.

What you are saying is your first husband was a dud. Reality is many men DO prioritize marriage and family.

Some do. But reality is that most men are duds.

This is what I don’t get about the anti-feminist weirdos. If you say most men suck as husbands, they say “no you picked him!” but if you say cool, I won’t pick any man, then they flip out “but you’re not prioritizing marriage and kids! The men are so lonely! Your standards are too high!”

No matter what, you can’t win. So just do whatever you want. Get married, don’t get married, have kids, don’t have kids, get divorced a million times. Doesn’t matter because someone will always say you’re doing it wrong.