Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like it to be 2 days too. Maybe Thanksgiving Thursday stays, and day after, Friday, is a Native American day of remembrance.

I’d like this. I’d like it even more if we could do celebrate with something other than a shopping frenzy.

Why do you hate America

NP. I hate genocide.

Tell that to the Aztecs. They slaughtered thousands of other Native-American tribes in Mexico long before any Europeans arrived.

So did the Comanches.

There’s a reason some Indians fought with the new settlers: they hated the other tribes.

You know the saying: the enemy of my enemy…

Ok. The Comanche Nation can decide how to address violence it committed against other tribes.

And the US government can determine how to address violence it committed against all tribes.

The government has already given them tax free land where the US has no jurisdiction (can’t make arrests or enforce laws, can’t repossess cars they default on, etc). The government also gave them gaming rights/casinos which more than support some tribes.

The end result of their arguably privileged status isn’t great (rampant alcoholism and family violence/sexual abuse/murder-“disappearance.”

They got what freed slaves never got. Hard to say who fared better. Their self-imposed segregation gave them land, money and autonomy, but they were also largely forgotten on the east coast and elsewhere. Plus all the bad stuff that happens on their land due to their set up.

how is being rounded up from their homeland at gunpoint and marched a thousand miles during winter to a reservation, during which time 40 percent of their members died, a "self imposed segregation"

What does that have to do with Thanksgiving?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/dining/thanksgiving-native-americans.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.

So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.

Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.

Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.

Revisionist history to the max.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.

Ok.

Should the Latinos coming to MoCo assimilate? English only?

Or should mcps cancel Halloween parties because the holiday rubs the newcomers the wrong way due to their religious beliefs?

That’s just one example. But I’m curious what you think. Should everyone assimilate, or should we be a melting pot and evolve?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.

Ok.

Should the Latinos coming to MoCo assimilate? English only?

Or should mcps cancel Halloween parties because the holiday rubs the newcomers the wrong way due to their religious beliefs?

That’s just one example. But I’m curious what you think. Should everyone assimilate, or should we be a melting pot and evolve?

I wasn't really taking a stance on assimilation itself. But I was thinking that as a general rule when people enter an established culture they do not destroy it. They may completely assimilate. They may create communities of people from their prior culture and interact with the greater population on a limited basis or they may even work to get aspects of their culture into the main stream.

The European settlers took a very different approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like it to be 2 days too. Maybe Thanksgiving Thursday stays, and day after, Friday, is a Native American day of remembrance.

I’d like this. I’d like it even more if we could do celebrate with something other than a shopping frenzy.

Why do you hate America

NP. I hate genocide.

Tell that to the Aztecs. They slaughtered thousands of other Native-American tribes in Mexico long before any Europeans arrived.

So did the Comanches.

There’s a reason some Indians fought with the new settlers: they hated the other tribes.

You know the saying: the enemy of my enemy…

Ok. The Comanche Nation can decide how to address violence it committed against other tribes.

And the US government can determine how to address violence it committed against all tribes.

The government has already given them tax free land where the US has no jurisdiction (can’t make arrests or enforce laws, can’t repossess cars they default on, etc). The government also gave them gaming rights/casinos which more than support some tribes.

The end result of their arguably privileged status isn’t great (rampant alcoholism and family violence/sexual abuse/murder-“disappearance.”

They got what freed slaves never got. Hard to say who fared better. Their self-imposed segregation gave them land, money and autonomy, but they were also largely forgotten on the east coast and elsewhere. Plus all the bad stuff that happens on their land due to their set up.

how is being rounded up from their homeland at gunpoint and marched a thousand miles during winter to a reservation, during which time 40 percent of their members died, a "self imposed segregation"

What does that have to do with Thanksgiving?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/dining/thanksgiving-native-americans.html

Can't get past the paywall. But to say this is a day of mourning for Native Americans makes perfect sense. But to say it's a national day of mourning does not. Don't kid yourself everything would have been just fine if Europeans hadn't made it here -- or that everything was just fine before they got here, for that matter. Didn't native Americans regularly go to war with each other? Because that's what humans do. And if the settlers had never arrived, some mentally ill Native American would have killed their way into power and slaughtered the competition, made slaves out of survivors from other tribes, killed off all the buffalo that were the source of food for others, etc. Because that's what human beings do. Human history is a sh/tshow, a parade of brutality punctuated by peace. Native Americans are no different than anyone else.

Thanksgiving is a celebration of an occasion where Native Americans welcomed the early Europeans, and we ate together at a meal. Why can't we celebrate the good in that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.

Ok.

Should the Latinos coming to MoCo assimilate? English only?

Or should mcps cancel Halloween parties because the holiday rubs the newcomers the wrong way due to their religious beliefs?

That’s just one example. But I’m curious what you think. Should everyone assimilate, or should we be a melting pot and evolve?

I wasn't really taking a stance on assimilation itself. But I was thinking that as a general rule when people enter an established culture they do not destroy it. They may completely assimilate. They may create communities of people from their prior culture and interact with the greater population on a limited basis or they may even work to get aspects of their culture into the main stream.

The European settlers took a very different approach.

No, actually for a long time the European settlers treated the Indians as a foreign nation, with diplomacy, negotiating (and breaking) treaties and fighting battles, just like back in Europe. For many decades, the relationship was very similar to warring parts of Europe, with some truces and occasional friendship and peace. The US government didn't attain military ascendancy for a long time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.

So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.

Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.

Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.

Revisionist history to the max.

Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.

Ok.

Should the Latinos coming to MoCo assimilate? English only?

Or should mcps cancel Halloween parties because the holiday rubs the newcomers the wrong way due to their religious beliefs?

That’s just one example. But I’m curious what you think. Should everyone assimilate, or should we be a melting pot and evolve?

I wasn't really taking a stance on assimilation itself. But I was thinking that as a general rule when people enter an established culture they do not destroy it. They may completely assimilate. They may create communities of people from their prior culture and interact with the greater population on a limited basis or they may even work to get aspects of their culture into the main stream.

The European settlers took a very different approach.

No, actually for a long time the European settlers treated the Indians as a foreign nation, with diplomacy, negotiating (and breaking) treaties and fighting battles, just like back in Europe. For many decades, the relationship was very similar to warring parts of Europe, with some truces and occasional friendship and peace. The US government didn't attain military ascendancy for a long time.

I think this was my point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

I live on land where it is believed that there are no descendants of the last known tribes to inhabit the area (metro DC).

But you could still return your land to any indigenous tribe. Why haven't you? It would seem that your outrage is just hot air.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

I live on land where it is believed that there are no descendants of the last known tribes to inhabit the area (metro DC).

But you could still return your land to any indigenous tribe. Why haven't you? It would seem that your outrage is just hot air.

This is silliness.

One can think that the government should provide universal healthcare without personally paying another person's medical bills.
One can think that our criminal justice system is corrupt without breaking people out of prisons.
One can think that that the government should enact legislation and allocate funds to address homelessness without opening your own home to anyone.

This "argument" does not hold water.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

I live on land where it is believed that there are no descendants of the last known tribes to inhabit the area (metro DC).

But you could still return your land to any indigenous tribe. Why haven't you? It would seem that your outrage is just hot air.

This is silliness.

One can think that the government should provide universal healthcare without personally paying another person's medical bills.
One can think that our criminal justice system is corrupt without breaking people out of prisons.
One can think that that the government should enact legislation and allocate funds to address homelessness without opening your own home to anyone.

This "argument" does not hold water.

Yes, the government can certainly fulfill the treaties and pay for the land without actually returning the land.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

I live on land where it is believed that there are no descendants of the last known tribes to inhabit the area (metro DC).

But you could still return your land to any indigenous tribe. Why haven't you? It would seem that your outrage is just hot air.

This is silliness.

One can think that the government should provide universal healthcare without personally paying another person's medical bills.
One can think that our criminal justice system is corrupt without breaking people out of prisons.
One can think that that the government should enact legislation and allocate funds to address homelessness without opening your own home to anyone.

This "argument" does not hold water.

Yes, the government can certainly fulfill the treaties and pay for the land without actually returning the land.

Yes, or the government could return some land.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

I live on land where it is believed that there are no descendants of the last known tribes to inhabit the area (metro DC).

But you could still return your land to any indigenous tribe. Why haven't you? It would seem that your outrage is just hot air.

This is silliness.

One can think that the government should provide universal healthcare without personally paying another person's medical bills.
One can think that our criminal justice system is corrupt without breaking people out of prisons.
One can think that that the government should enact legislation and allocate funds to address homelessness without opening your own home to anyone.

This "argument" does not hold water.

Yes, the government can certainly fulfill the treaties and pay for the land without actually returning the land.

What is the cumulative value of all of the land in the US? I’m sure tax payers would be happy to pony up

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

I live on land where it is believed that there are no descendants of the last known tribes to inhabit the area (metro DC).

But you could still return your land to any indigenous tribe. Why haven't you? It would seem that your outrage is just hot air.

This is silliness.

One can think that the government should provide universal healthcare without personally paying another person's medical bills.
One can think that our criminal justice system is corrupt without breaking people out of prisons.
One can think that that the government should enact legislation and allocate funds to address homelessness without opening your own home to anyone.

This "argument" does not hold water.

That PP said they were enrolled in a program -- implying that they were going to give their house to a native American (presumably when they're good and ready?) So that is the "silliness" we are responding to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

I live on land where it is believed that there are no descendants of the last known tribes to inhabit the area (metro DC).

But you could still return your land to any indigenous tribe. Why haven't you? It would seem that your outrage is just hot air.

This is silliness.

One can think that the government should provide universal healthcare without personally paying another person's medical bills.
One can think that our criminal justice system is corrupt without breaking people out of prisons.
One can think that that the government should enact legislation and allocate funds to address homelessness without opening your own home to anyone.

This "argument" does not hold water.

That PP said they were enrolled in a program -- implying that they were going to give their house to a native American (presumably when they're good and ready?) So that is the "silliness" we are responding to.

Enrolled in a tribe