Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I don't know about Europeans, but I'm American. I haven't assimilated with myself, that sounds vaguely Both-like. What I've done is be American and now I'm with family, starting work on the big meal tomorrow. And I'm thankful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s 2022.

Anyone opting to live on a reservation is living in self-imposed segregation.

They opt to live there and can’t get mortgages because there’s no way for a lender to foreclose if they default. The end result is subpar housing. That’s a choice they are making by living there. Nobody is forcing them to remain

Sorry we took away your livelihood by killing all the buffalo and reducing your territory to one tenth it’s original size, but really, it’s your fault if you can’t make it work.

I agree that the Europeans who arrived and eventually built our American democracy committed many atrocities against Indians—as well as against the European women and American women. And the poor. And the Africans brought here in chains and their progeny. Lots of really awful stuff.

But I’m talking about now. 2022.

Read up on what’s happening in Indian country now. It’s awful.

You can’t connect how what happened over the last few centuries impacts people today?

I can. Can you?

You seem to be solely fixated on what happened at a point in time.

At some point tribes made decisions. And individuals made decisions.

There are countless studies on Indian country. Few are faring well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

Civilizations evolve and change over time. War. Climate. Myriad factors impact the course of history and the evolution of civilization. And maps. And hearts and minds.

What is your point? Assimilation in this context certainly means the people that are entering a culture becoming one with that culture. European settlers were the ones who did not assimilate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

The point is, it doesn't matter what group it is. Someone would be parked on the couch and someone would be out of luck, anywhere, any time in history. This is life on earth. No, this is not a national day of mourning. Suffering is part of life. Find a way to be positive instead of stupidly, natively negative.

“Natively” negative?

That someone is us. We should take responsibility for our actions instead of pretending like it never happened. It’s called accountability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.

I read a recent article about the new Marvel movie and the reception in Mexico and the issues of colorism. It mentioned the differences between the Spanish assimilation of the indigenous people when they arrived and the separation, both diplomatic relations and also fighting, between the British and other Europeans when they arrived farther north.

We can talk about assimilation or not assimilating, but not sure that one is better (for the indigenous people or the Americans and Latin America) than the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I don't know about Europeans, but I'm American. I haven't assimilated with myself, that sounds vaguely Both-like. What I've done is be American and now I'm with family, starting work on the big meal tomorrow. And I'm thankful.

Huh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.

So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.

Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

The point is, it doesn't matter what group it is. Someone would be parked on the couch and someone would be out of luck, anywhere, any time in history. This is life on earth. No, this is not a national day of mourning. Suffering is part of life. Find a way to be positive instead of stupidly, natively negative.

NAIVELY not natively. Stupid autocorrect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s 2022.

Anyone opting to live on a reservation is living in self-imposed segregation.

They opt to live there and can’t get mortgages because there’s no way for a lender to foreclose if they default. The end result is subpar housing. That’s a choice they are making by living there. Nobody is forcing them to remain

Sorry we took away your livelihood by killing all the buffalo and reducing your territory to one tenth it’s original size, but really, it’s your fault if you can’t make it work.

I agree that the Europeans who arrived and eventually built our American democracy committed many atrocities against Indians—as well as against the European women and American women. And the poor. And the Africans brought here in chains and their progeny. Lots of really awful stuff.

But I’m talking about now. 2022.

Read up on what’s happening in Indian country now. It’s awful.

You can’t connect how what happened over the last few centuries impacts people today?

I can. Can you?

You seem to be solely fixated on what happened at a point in time.

At some point tribes made decisions. And individuals made decisions.

There are countless studies on Indian country. Few are faring well.

Please explain why you think that is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.

So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.

Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.

^ now instead of not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s 2022.

Anyone opting to live on a reservation is living in self-imposed segregation.

They opt to live there and can’t get mortgages because there’s no way for a lender to foreclose if they default. The end result is subpar housing. That’s a choice they are making by living there. Nobody is forcing them to remain

Sorry we took away your livelihood by killing all the buffalo and reducing your territory to one tenth it’s original size, but really, it’s your fault if you can’t make it work.

I agree that the Europeans who arrived and eventually built our American democracy committed many atrocities against Indians—as well as against the European women and American women. And the poor. And the Africans brought here in chains and their progeny. Lots of really awful stuff.

But I’m talking about now. 2022.

Read up on what’s happening in Indian country now. It’s awful.

You can’t connect how what happened over the last few centuries impacts people today?

I can. Can you?

You seem to be solely fixated on what happened at a point in time.

At some point tribes made decisions. And individuals made decisions.

There are countless studies on Indian country. Few are faring well.

What do you mean, tribes made decisions? At the beginning of the 19th century, it was the official policy of the US government to move all remaining Indians west of the Mississippi, whether they wanted to go or not. Then, over the following 70 years, the government let white people cross the Midwest reservations on their way out west (hunting and eating everything as they went, leaving the Indians to starve) and ultimately breaking up many of the reservations around 1900 and selling them off in pieces. None of this was done with the consent of the tribes and mostly done in violation of the treaties. The tribes have been going to court over this for almost 200 years, and continue to sue both states and the federal government. The tribes are actively fighting unilateral US actions and pursuing legal remedies, they aren’t “making decisions” against their interests. But thanks for your ignorant spin on things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.

Have you gifted you house to native Americans?

I’m enrolled

But you still live in your house?

I live on land where it is believed that there are no descendants of the last known tribes to inhabit the area (metro DC).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.

They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.

I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.

I read a recent article about the new Marvel movie and the reception in Mexico and the issues of colorism. It mentioned the differences between the Spanish assimilation of the indigenous people when they arrived and the separation, both diplomatic relations and also fighting, between the British and other Europeans when they arrived farther north.

We can talk about assimilation or not assimilating, but not sure that one is better (for the indigenous people or the Americans and Latin America) than the other.

Here's the article: https://www.vox.com/culture/2022/11/21/23467145/black-panther-wakanda-forever-latino-colorism-racism-namor-tenoch-huerta