If your church's doctrine says homosexuality is a sin, but your DC is gay

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is baffling.

Atheist pp clearly opposes homophobia, as do I.

So why has she been banging on for 10 pages about how Christians should be following ALL of Leviticus? Her complaint seems to be that Christians (although it’s actually a minority) selectively pick up Levitical rules about homosexuality and ignore the dietary laws. But if she (like me) is against homophobia, then why not side with the argument that Christians don’t need to follow Leviticus at all, because of the universal interpretations (excepting those two fundie preachers with 500 congregants max and some Jews for Jesus groups) of Matthew and Mark, plus the fact that Jesus said that loving God, your neighbor and your enemy were the basis of all law?

It would seem that trying to show Christians are hypocrites is more important to atheist pp than accepting the universal Christian interpretation (pace those two bible literalist southern pastors with 500 congregants max and some Jews for Jesus groups) that Levitical dietary rules don’t apply.

I haven’t said that Christians “should” do anything but stop being homophobic. Christians can do whatever they like as long as it doesn’t require hate. I am saying Jesus never made all meat kosher. My interlocutor has said that Mark, where Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for criticizing his followers for not washing their hands before eating bread somehow means that all meat is kosher. One might as well ask why isn’t circumcision a rule for Christians anymore? Did Jesus say that circumcision was no longer necessary?

You keep insisting that Jesus didn’t mean “whatever goes into your mouth is clean” because “whatever” doesn’t actually mean “whatever,” it only means bread and unclean hands and some fringy argument that Mark and Matthew were addressing Jews only (they weren’t). And you keep insisting that Jesus, a skilled rhetorician, didn’t mean “nothing is unclean” because “nothing” doesn’t mean “nothing” for similar reasons. And you keep ignoring that Jesus singled out two commandments, about loving God and your neighbor, to which he added loving your enemy, as the only ones that matter.

It’s hard to understand why you, a non-Christian, cling to these extreme fringe interpretations and insist all Christians should keep kosher. Whatever, think what you want and Christendom will ignore you.

Paul got rid of circumcision.

Yes, Paul said circumcision was no longer necessary. He was going to say anything he needed to say to get more converts. He said this over the objection of Peter, head of the church, and James, which led to their bitter confrontation in Galatians. I’m not sure what gave Paul the authority to eliminate circumcision.

I have never said all Christians should keep kosher. All I want Christians to do is to stop hating. Stop hating homosexuals, stop hating Jews. Whether or not Christians keep kosher is a matter of complete indifference to me. I’m simply saying that Jesus condemning the Pharisees for criticizing the disciples for not washing their hands before eating bread does not make all meat kosher. But if Christians, or Jews for that matter, don’t want to keep kosher that’s fine with me. As I’ve said a hundred times, I believe men wrote these rules, not God.

You actually did, when you called out supposed Christian “hypocrisy” about picking out the anti-homosexuality rules. I’m tired of you rewriting what you said.

[Anonymous]

^^ when you called out Christian with no modifications for your theory about all Jewish converts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is baffling.

Atheist pp clearly opposes homophobia, as do I.

So why has she been banging on for 10 pages about how Christians should be following ALL of Leviticus? Her complaint seems to be that Christians (although it’s actually a minority) selectively pick up Levitical rules about homosexuality and ignore the dietary laws. But if she (like me) is against homophobia, then why not side with the argument that Christians don’t need to follow Leviticus at all, because of the universal interpretations (excepting those two fundie preachers with 500 congregants max and some Jews for Jesus groups) of Matthew and Mark, plus the fact that Jesus said that loving God, your neighbor and your enemy were the basis of all law?

It would seem that trying to show Christians are hypocrites is more important to atheist pp than accepting the universal Christian interpretation (pace those two bible literalist southern pastors with 500 congregants max and some Jews for Jesus groups) that Levitical dietary rules don’t apply.

I haven’t said that Christians “should” do anything but stop being homophobic. Christians can do whatever they like as long as it doesn’t require hate. I am saying Jesus never made all meat kosher. My interlocutor has said that Mark, where Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for criticizing his followers for not washing their hands before eating bread somehow means that all meat is kosher. One might as well ask why isn’t circumcision a rule for Christians anymore? Did Jesus say that circumcision was no longer necessary?

You keep insisting that Jesus didn’t mean “whatever goes into your mouth is clean” because “whatever” doesn’t actually mean “whatever,” it only means bread and unclean hands and some fringy argument that Mark and Matthew were addressing Jews only (they weren’t). And you keep insisting that Jesus, a skilled rhetorician, didn’t mean “nothing is unclean” because “nothing” doesn’t mean “nothing” for similar reasons. And you keep ignoring that Jesus singled out two commandments, about loving God and your neighbor, to which he added loving your enemy, as the only ones that matter.

It’s hard to understand why you, a non-Christian, cling to these extreme fringe interpretations and insist all Christians should keep kosher. Whatever, think what you want and Christendom will ignore you.

Paul got rid of circumcision.

Yes, Paul said circumcision was no longer necessary. He was going to say anything he needed to say to get more converts. He said this over the objection of Peter, head of the church, and James, which led to their bitter confrontation in Galatians. I’m not sure what gave Paul the authority to eliminate circumcision.

I have never said all Christians should keep kosher. All I want Christians to do is to stop hating. Stop hating homosexuals, stop hating Jews. Whether or not Christians keep kosher is a matter of complete indifference to me. I’m simply saying that Jesus condemning the Pharisees for criticizing the disciples for not washing their hands before eating bread does not make all meat kosher. But if Christians, or Jews for that matter, don’t want to keep kosher that’s fine with me. As I’ve said a hundred times, I believe men wrote these rules, not God.

You actually did, when you called out supposed Christian “hypocrisy” about picking out the anti-homosexuality rules. I’m tired of you rewriting what you said.

That’s because cherry picking from Leviticus is hypocritical. Not obeying most of Leviticus but clinging to Leviticus 18:22 is hypocritical. I wish Christians would just say Leviticus is NOT God’s law. As I have said over and over again, Christians should relegate Leviticus to the trash bin of history and stop using it to justify homophobia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is baffling.

Atheist pp clearly opposes homophobia, as do I.

So why has she been banging on for 10 pages about how Christians should be following ALL of Leviticus? Her complaint seems to be that Christians (although it’s actually a minority) selectively pick up Levitical rules about homosexuality and ignore the dietary laws. But if she (like me) is against homophobia, then why not side with the argument that Christians don’t need to follow Leviticus at all, because of the universal interpretations (excepting those two fundie preachers with 500 congregants max and some Jews for Jesus groups) of Matthew and Mark, plus the fact that Jesus said that loving God, your neighbor and your enemy were the basis of all law?

It would seem that trying to show Christians are hypocrites is more important to atheist pp than accepting the universal Christian interpretation (pace those two bible literalist southern pastors with 500 congregants max and some Jews for Jesus groups) that Levitical dietary rules don’t apply.

I haven’t said that Christians “should” do anything but stop being homophobic. Christians can do whatever they like as long as it doesn’t require hate. I am saying Jesus never made all meat kosher. My interlocutor has said that Mark, where Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for criticizing his followers for not washing their hands before eating bread somehow means that all meat is kosher. One might as well ask why isn’t circumcision a rule for Christians anymore? Did Jesus say that circumcision was no longer necessary?

You keep insisting that Jesus didn’t mean “whatever goes into your mouth is clean” because “whatever” doesn’t actually mean “whatever,” it only means bread and unclean hands and some fringy argument that Mark and Matthew were addressing Jews only (they weren’t). And you keep insisting that Jesus, a skilled rhetorician, didn’t mean “nothing is unclean” because “nothing” doesn’t mean “nothing” for similar reasons. And you keep ignoring that Jesus singled out two commandments, about loving God and your neighbor, to which he added loving your enemy, as the only ones that matter.

It’s hard to understand why you, a non-Christian, cling to these extreme fringe interpretations and insist all Christians should keep kosher. Whatever, think what you want and Christendom will ignore you.

Paul got rid of circumcision.

Yes, Paul said circumcision was no longer necessary. He was going to say anything he needed to say to get more converts. He said this over the objection of Peter, head of the church, and James, which led to their bitter confrontation in Galatians. I’m not sure what gave Paul the authority to eliminate circumcision.

I have never said all Christians should keep kosher. All I want Christians to do is to stop hating. Stop hating homosexuals, stop hating Jews. Whether or not Christians keep kosher is a matter of complete indifference to me. I’m simply saying that Jesus condemning the Pharisees for criticizing the disciples for not washing their hands before eating bread does not make all meat kosher. But if Christians, or Jews for that matter, don’t want to keep kosher that’s fine with me. As I’ve said a hundred times, I believe men wrote these rules, not God.

You actually did, when you called out supposed Christian “hypocrisy” about picking out the anti-homosexuality rules. I’m tired of you rewriting what you said.

That’s because cherry picking from Leviticus is hypocritical. Not obeying most of Leviticus but clinging to Leviticus 18:22 is hypocritical. I wish Christians would just say Leviticus is NOT God’s law. As I have said over and over again, Christians should relegate Leviticus to the trash bin of history and stop using it to justify homophobia.

Catholics and the majority of Protestant Christians already do, for many reasons including Jesus’ statements about dietary laws in Mark and Matthew (which weirdly you continue to deny). You need to dial back your outrage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is baffling.

Atheist pp clearly opposes homophobia, as do I.

So why has she been banging on for 10 pages about how Christians should be following ALL of Leviticus? Her complaint seems to be that Christians (although it’s actually a minority) selectively pick up Levitical rules about homosexuality and ignore the dietary laws. But if she (like me) is against homophobia, then why not side with the argument that Christians don’t need to follow Leviticus at all, because of the universal interpretations (excepting those two fundie preachers with 500 congregants max and some Jews for Jesus groups) of Matthew and Mark, plus the fact that Jesus said that loving God, your neighbor and your enemy were the basis of all law?

It would seem that trying to show Christians are hypocrites is more important to atheist pp than accepting the universal Christian interpretation (pace those two bible literalist southern pastors with 500 congregants max and some Jews for Jesus groups) that Levitical dietary rules don’t apply.

I haven’t said that Christians “should” do anything but stop being homophobic. Christians can do whatever they like as long as it doesn’t require hate. I am saying Jesus never made all meat kosher. My interlocutor has said that Mark, where Jesus criticizes the Pharisees for criticizing his followers for not washing their hands before eating bread somehow means that all meat is kosher. One might as well ask why isn’t circumcision a rule for Christians anymore? Did Jesus say that circumcision was no longer necessary?

You keep insisting that Jesus didn’t mean “whatever goes into your mouth is clean” because “whatever” doesn’t actually mean “whatever,” it only means bread and unclean hands and some fringy argument that Mark and Matthew were addressing Jews only (they weren’t). And you keep insisting that Jesus, a skilled rhetorician, didn’t mean “nothing is unclean” because “nothing” doesn’t mean “nothing” for similar reasons. And you keep ignoring that Jesus singled out two commandments, about loving God and your neighbor, to which he added loving your enemy, as the only ones that matter.

It’s hard to understand why you, a non-Christian, cling to these extreme fringe interpretations and insist all Christians should keep kosher. Whatever, think what you want and Christendom will ignore you.

Paul got rid of circumcision.

Yes, Paul said circumcision was no longer necessary. He was going to say anything he needed to say to get more converts. He said this over the objection of Peter, head of the church, and James, which led to their bitter confrontation in Galatians. I’m not sure what gave Paul the authority to eliminate circumcision.

I have never said all Christians should keep kosher. All I want Christians to do is to stop hating. Stop hating homosexuals, stop hating Jews. Whether or not Christians keep kosher is a matter of complete indifference to me. I’m simply saying that Jesus condemning the Pharisees for criticizing the disciples for not washing their hands before eating bread does not make all meat kosher. But if Christians, or Jews for that matter, don’t want to keep kosher that’s fine with me. As I’ve said a hundred times, I believe men wrote these rules, not God.

You actually did, when you called out supposed Christian “hypocrisy” about picking out the anti-homosexuality rules. I’m tired of you rewriting what you said.

That’s because cherry picking from Leviticus is hypocritical. Not obeying most of Leviticus but clinging to Leviticus 18:22 is hypocritical. I wish Christians would just say Leviticus is NOT God’s law. As I have said over and over again, Christians should relegate Leviticus to the trash bin of history and stop using it to justify homophobia.

Catholics and the majority of Protestant Christians already do, for many reasons including Jesus’ statements about dietary laws in Mark and Matthew (which weirdly you continue to deny). You need to dial back your outrage.

It’s sad to hear Christians say that I must dial back my outrage about Christians who cling to homophobia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You actually did, when you called out supposed Christian “hypocrisy” about picking out the anti-homosexuality rules. I’m tired of you rewriting what you said.

That’s because cherry picking from Leviticus is hypocritical. Not obeying most of Leviticus but clinging to Leviticus 18:22 is hypocritical. I wish Christians would just say Leviticus is NOT God’s law. As I have said over and over again, Christians should relegate Leviticus to the trash bin of history and stop using it to justify homophobia.

Catholics and the majority of Protestant Christians already do, for many reasons including Jesus’ statements about dietary laws in Mark and Matthew (which weirdly you continue to deny). You need to dial back your outrage.

It’s sad to hear Christians say that I must dial back my outrage about Christians who cling to homophobia.

It’s sad that you’re arguing with one member of the majority of Christians who do hate homophobia, yet you refuse to acknowledge that majority exists and continue to post your broad, bigoted generalizations about “Christians” writ large.

It’s sad that you keep posting fundamentally silly, fringy, easily debunked arguments about Jesus and dietary rules.

It’s also sad that you spill 15 pages of digital ink arguing about Levitical dietary rules that you claim not to believe, under some perverse thinking that this is the “cherry picking” that will expose those homophobes. Why? How is telling homophobes they’re hypocrites because Jesus kept kosher, even as you admit gentiles don’t need to keep kosher, going to expose hypocrisy or anything else? Your logic here is incomprehensible.

Most of all, it’s sad that you’re spending all this time trying to undermine the real hypocrisy of homophobes, which lies in adhering to Leviticus on homosexuality, even as they agree with other Christians that Jesus did away with all the other Levitical rules, including dietary rules (certainly for gentiles like them and even if they accept your tangential argument about Jewish converts)?

[Anonymous]

There are plenty of churches out there that go with the teachings of Jesus to love one another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of churches out there that go with the teachings of Jesus to love one another.

Exactly. This is the vast majority of churches, two teeny southern fundamentalist churches notwithstanding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of churches out there that go with the teachings of Jesus to love one another.

And there are plenty of Whites who aren’t racist. That doesn’t mean that racism isn’t a terrible problem in America. It’s wonderful that many congregations are not homophobic, but homophobia justified by Leviticus is still a terrible problem in America. To pretend it isn’t is simply fooling oneself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


Most of all, it’s sad that you’re spending all this time trying to undermine the real hypocrisy of homophobes, which lies in adhering to Leviticus on homosexuality, even as they agree with other Christians that Jesus did away with all the other Levitical rules, including dietary rules (certainly for gentiles like them and even if they accept your tangential argument about Jewish converts)?

That’s been my point all along. I don’t believe Jesus eliminated laws against kosher meats when he was arguing with the Pharisees about his disciples eating bread without washing their hands. If that were true, Peter wouldn’t have been shocked at the suggestion that he eat un kosher meat in Acts after Jesus had died. But if Christians want to believe that, fine. For the umpteenth time, what bothers me is Christians (and liberal Jews) cherry picking Leviticus 18:22 and using it to justify hating homosexuals. That doesn’t seem to bother (a small number) of people here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


Most of all, it’s sad that you’re spending all this time trying to undermine the real hypocrisy of homophobes, which lies in adhering to Leviticus on homosexuality, even as they agree with other Christians that Jesus did away with all the other Levitical rules, including dietary rules (certainly for gentiles like them and even if they accept your tangential argument about Jewish converts)?

That’s been my point all along. I don’t believe Jesus eliminated laws against kosher meats when he was arguing with the Pharisees about his disciples eating bread without washing their hands. If that were true, Peter wouldn’t have been shocked at the suggestion that he eat un kosher meat in Acts after Jesus had died. But if Christians want to believe that, fine. For the umpteenth time, what bothers me is Christians (and liberal Jews) cherry picking Leviticus 18:22 and using it to justify hating homosexuals. That doesn’t seem to bother (a small number) of people here.

It’s clear you don’t read others’ posts, so let’s try again.

Look, you can believe what you want about Jesus and dietary laws, and you can believe what you want about Peter (even though the rest of scholarship thinks otherwise on both issues and your arguments are really thin).

But your thoughts on these issues have zero bearing on whether homophobes are hypocrites.

Here’s the hole in your logic about hypocrisy: arguing that some Jewish converts to Christianity might (or might not) have kept kosher has zero bearing on whether homophobic Billy Bob is a hypocrite for not following the rest of Leviticus. Why? Because Billy Bob is probably of Western European origin and even you agree gentiles don’t need to keep kosher.

So what hypocrisy are you pointing out to Billy Bob? There is no hypocrisy using your logic.

You’ve got it upside down, or backwards.

There’s real hypocrisy when the homophobe rejects all of Leviticus (as almost 2,000 years of Christian theologians have done) except for a few passages prohibiting homosexuality. That’s the hypocrisy. But you can’t see it because you’re so intent on dismissing the aforementioned nearly 2,000 years of Christian theology and tradition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of churches out there that go with the teachings of Jesus to love one another.

And there are plenty of Whites who aren’t racist. That doesn’t mean that racism isn’t a terrible problem in America. It’s wonderful that many congregations are not homophobic, but homophobia justified by Leviticus is still a terrible problem in America. To pretend it isn’t is simply fooling oneself.

DP. Who’s pretending it’s not a problem? PP used the words “plenty of churches” not “all churches.” You really need to stop twisting what posters say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Most of all, it’s sad that you’re spending all this time trying to undermine the real hypocrisy of homophobes, which lies in adhering to Leviticus on homosexuality, even as they agree with other Christians that Jesus did away with all the other Levitical rules, including dietary rules (certainly for gentiles like them and even if they accept your tangential argument about Jewish converts)?

That’s been my point all along. I don’t believe Jesus eliminated laws against kosher meats when he was arguing with the Pharisees about his disciples eating bread without washing their hands. If that were true, Peter wouldn’t have been shocked at the suggestion that he eat un kosher meat in Acts after Jesus had died. But if Christians want to believe that, fine. For the umpteenth time, what bothers me is Christians (and liberal Jews) cherry picking Leviticus 18:22 and using it to justify hating homosexuals. That doesn’t seem to bother (a small number) of people here.

It’s clear you don’t read others’ posts, so let’s try again.

Look, you can believe what you want about Jesus and dietary laws, and you can believe what you want about Peter (even though the rest of scholarship thinks otherwise on both issues and your arguments are really thin).

But your thoughts on these issues have zero bearing on whether homophobes are hypocrites.

Here’s the hole in your logic about hypocrisy: arguing that some Jewish converts to Christianity might (or might not) have kept kosher has zero bearing on whether homophobic Billy Bob is a hypocrite for not following the rest of Leviticus. Why? Because Billy Bob is probably of Western European origin and even you agree gentiles don’t need to keep kosher.

So what hypocrisy are you pointing out to Billy Bob? There is no hypocrisy using your logic.

You’ve got it upside down, or backwards.

There’s real hypocrisy when the homophobe rejects all of Leviticus (as almost 2,000 years of Christian theologians have done) except for a few passages prohibiting homosexuality. That’s the hypocrisy. But you can’t see it because you’re so intent on dismissing the aforementioned nearly 2,000 years of Christian theology and tradition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of churches out there that go with the teachings of Jesus to love one another.

Exactly. This is the vast majority of churches, two teeny southern fundamentalist churches notwithstanding.

And Catholic Churches except a few liberal ones

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Most of all, it’s sad that you’re spending all this time trying to undermine the real hypocrisy of homophobes, which lies in adhering to Leviticus on homosexuality, even as they agree with other Christians that Jesus did away with all the other Levitical rules, including dietary rules (certainly for gentiles like them and even if they accept your tangential argument about Jewish converts)?

That’s been my point all along. I don’t believe Jesus eliminated laws against kosher meats when he was arguing with the Pharisees about his disciples eating bread without washing their hands. If that were true, Peter wouldn’t have been shocked at the suggestion that he eat un kosher meat in Acts after Jesus had died. But if Christians want to believe that, fine. For the umpteenth time, what bothers me is Christians (and liberal Jews) cherry picking Leviticus 18:22 and using it to justify hating homosexuals. That doesn’t seem to bother (a small number) of people here.

It’s clear you don’t read others’ posts, so let’s try again.

Look, you can believe what you want about Jesus and dietary laws, and you can believe what you want about Peter (even though the rest of scholarship thinks otherwise on both issues and your arguments are really thin).

But your thoughts on these issues have zero bearing on whether homophobes are hypocrites.

Here’s the hole in your logic about hypocrisy: arguing that some Jewish converts to Christianity might (or might not) have kept kosher has zero bearing on whether homophobic Billy Bob is a hypocrite for not following the rest of Leviticus. Why? Because Billy Bob is probably of Western European origin and even you agree gentiles don’t need to keep kosher.

So what hypocrisy are you pointing out to Billy Bob? There is no hypocrisy using your logic.

You’ve got it upside down, or backwards.

There’s real hypocrisy when the homophobe rejects all of Leviticus (as almost 2,000 years of Christian theologians have done) except for a few passages prohibiting homosexuality. That’s the hypocrisy. But you can’t see it because you’re so intent on dismissing the aforementioned nearly 2,000 years of Christian theology and tradition.

No, I’m not arguing Gentiles don’t have to keep kosher. I’m arguing nobody has to keep kosher. How many times have I got to say it? Leviticus should be regarded as a purely historical document written by men, not God.