S/O The obsession with class/tackiness/social standing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. This doesn't really explain *why* you are concerned about your "social class." You are educated and wealthy- what is missing from your life? Are you ever in some social situation where you don't fit in despite having money and an education?

NP here. But this question suggests to me that you must not be close to many people who grew up very differently than you did. My parents are immigrants who did well in the US as educated professionals. I grew up UMC/rich, and DH and I are now UMC/rich. Though his family has been in the US for generations (Mayflower on one side), there are similarities in our upbringings. He is also UMC, but his parents' income was lower and they have lower NW today.

DH and I are in fields (STEM PhD) that tend to be attainable to a broader set of SES backgrounds than the professions most UMC professionals work in (e.g. law, medicine). I've sat in professional trainings where people were taught which forks to use, how to introduce themselves at networking events, how to assess whether your "business casual" outfit is actually "business" or just "casual". The first time I encountered this kind of training, I thought it was so strange. All of this was stuff I was just expected to know by a pretty young age. But for many others, this was the first time someone had sat down to explain this stuff to them (though most of them had already picked up its importance). Pretending like these class differences don't exist and that they don't impact someone's career and social standing ultimately hurts people who did not grow up learning them.

OP here. My parents were immigrants and I think you are confusing the ability to pick up social cues with some sort of class difference. Introducing yourself at a network event is hard for many people because it can be awkward, not because they missed out on some sort of prior experience. Most people can figure out what "business casual" means or, worst case scenario, google it. The trainings you are talking about sound like they are for people who are awkward, not of a lower socioeconomic class.

I totally disagree. I grew up with plenty of awkward people in my mostly non-immigrant community. We were still all taught these things in the course of growing up. Many people are not taught these things because of class differences, and it can be overwhelming to figure it out. Certainly, there are some people who are extremely adept at figuring these things out without instruction. But you don't have to be particularly awkward to benefit from some coaching in these areas. I know plenty of people who are in no way awkward, but also just never learned subtle things like the way hierarchy impacts how you make introductions at a networking event. I grew up absorbing those things to the point where I don't even think about them. But as I've interacted more and more with people who did not grow up like me and had them tell me what was hard, I've come to appreciate that these are class advantages I didn't even know I had.

Alright- let me clarify. People who are working class or lower on the socio-economic ladder may have difficulty with forks or introducing themselves at work events. That's not what we're discussing here, and the pp who started this tangent admitted as much, that because she is now rich no one really cares about any subtleties in her behavior. And that's not really the focus on DCUM- this is not a crowd that worries about poor people. Middle class people can function at work events. People on the other thread are spending 30 pages arguing about whether the upper class goes to Portugal or buys Stickley furniture- why do they do that? That's what's interesting to me.

Probably because it’s really f’ing weird how people write off entire countries on this web site. In particular, they have a weird obsession with saying that travelers to Portugal, Iceland, Croatia, and Costa Rica (and Belize to some extent) are passé posers and strivers and that “anyone who is anyone” is not going to those places. I have seen this many times in the travel board and have always thought it’s incredible bizarre.

I thought the Stickley thing was weird too. It’s nice stuff. Maybe it’s not your style but it’s nice hard wood and hand made. What more can be said?

I have noticed the snark about those destinations too! (Probably because they’re all on my bucket lust, lol)

It’s weitd but I think it’s because they’re popular destinations on social media right now, particularly Instagram.

And we know DCUM HATES Instagram!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well fwiw, I wouldn't say I am "obsessed" but I find the topic interesting. Primarily because I am a person who changed classes (maybe). Grew up poor, parents worked as a waitress and mechanic, barely got by, I'm a first generation college graduate, then I got a master's degree. Husband grew up the same way then through luck was involved in an IPO and made millions. Of course that was life changing. It kind of felt a little bit like winning the lottery. But I don't feel that the "social" part of our class changed that much.

The word is "social class" right? So I think it's interesting to question how much of it is social and how much is economic.

I'd guess you are insecure and obsessed. I too grew up with working class parents and am not concerned or fascinated with class other than the watching the trainwreck of unhappiness I see on here. I know I can provide for my family and that my kids have it better than I had it (though not sure they will be as successful because they haven't had to work like I did) and that to me is a all I need for validstion.

I think many of you need therapy on now to impeove your self esteem and self worth. Best of luck

DP here. I agree with both of you. I could see how first PP could com across as a real arsehole, and be proud of it (wrongly).

I also agree with second PP that the trainwreck of unhappiness is prevalent in this area. Look at how people act - like animals - those aren't happy people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. This doesn't really explain *why* you are concerned about your "social class." You are educated and wealthy- what is missing from your life? Are you ever in some social situation where you don't fit in despite having money and an education?

NP here. But this question suggests to me that you must not be close to many people who grew up very differently than you did. My parents are immigrants who did well in the US as educated professionals. I grew up UMC/rich, and DH and I are now UMC/rich. Though his family has been in the US for generations (Mayflower on one side), there are similarities in our upbringings. He is also UMC, but his parents' income was lower and they have lower NW today.

DH and I are in fields (STEM PhD) that tend to be attainable to a broader set of SES backgrounds than the professions most UMC professionals work in (e.g. law, medicine). I've sat in professional trainings where people were taught which forks to use, how to introduce themselves at networking events, how to assess whether your "business casual" outfit is actually "business" or just "casual". The first time I encountered this kind of training, I thought it was so strange. All of this was stuff I was just expected to know by a pretty young age. But for many others, this was the first time someone had sat down to explain this stuff to them (though most of them had already picked up its importance). Pretending like these class differences don't exist and that they don't impact someone's career and social standing ultimately hurts people who did not grow up learning them.

OP here. My parents were immigrants and I think you are confusing the ability to pick up social cues with some sort of class difference. Introducing yourself at a network event is hard for many people because it can be awkward, not because they missed out on some sort of prior experience. Most people can figure out what "business casual" means or, worst case scenario, google it. The trainings you are talking about sound like they are for people who are awkward, not of a lower socioeconomic class.

I totally disagree. I grew up with plenty of awkward people in my mostly non-immigrant community. We were still all taught these things in the course of growing up. Many people are not taught these things because of class differences, and it can be overwhelming to figure it out. Certainly, there are some people who are extremely adept at figuring these things out without instruction. But you don't have to be particularly awkward to benefit from some coaching in these areas. I know plenty of people who are in no way awkward, but also just never learned subtle things like the way hierarchy impacts how you make introductions at a networking event. I grew up absorbing those things to the point where I don't even think about them. But as I've interacted more and more with people who did not grow up like me and had them tell me what was hard, I've come to appreciate that these are class advantages I didn't even know I had.

Alright- let me clarify. People who are working class or lower on the socio-economic ladder may have difficulty with forks or introducing themselves at work events. That's not what we're discussing here, and the pp who started this tangent admitted as much, that because she is now rich no one really cares about any subtleties in her behavior. And that's not really the focus on DCUM- this is not a crowd that worries about poor people. Middle class people can function at work events. People on the other thread are spending 30 pages arguing about whether the upper class goes to Portugal or buys Stickley furniture- why do they do that? That's what's interesting to me.

Probably because it’s really f’ing weird how people write off entire countries on this web site. In particular, they have a weird obsession with saying that travelers to Portugal, Iceland, Croatia, and Costa Rica (and Belize to some extent) are passé posers and strivers and that “anyone who is anyone” is not going to those places. I have seen this many times in the travel board and have always thought it’s incredible bizarre.

I thought the Stickley thing was weird too. It’s nice stuff. Maybe it’s not your style but it’s nice hard wood and hand made. What more can be said?

I have noticed the snark about those destinations too! (Probably because they’re all on my bucket lust, lol)

It’s weitd but I think it’s because they’re popular destinations on social media right now, particularly Instagram.

And we know DCUM HATES Instagram!

You would not believe the things I have seen grown women do out of sheer jealousy.

[Anonymous]

It all boils down to jealousy of the rich.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It all boils down to jealousy of the rich.

Doesn’t everything on here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It all boils down to jealousy of the rich.

Well, there's that, but I think there's more to it. Like, look at the threads where people are trying to emulate the "upper class" with questions about how to look more upper class or "is this tacky?" etc. Like, dressing nicely by your own estimation or treating people politely is not quite enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well fwiw, I wouldn't say I am "obsessed" but I find the topic interesting. Primarily because I am a person who changed classes (maybe). Grew up poor, parents worked as a waitress and mechanic, barely got by, I'm a first generation college graduate, then I got a master's degree. Husband grew up the same way then through luck was involved in an IPO and made millions. Of course that was life changing. It kind of felt a little bit like winning the lottery. But I don't feel that the "social" part of our class changed that much.

The word is "social class" right? So I think it's interesting to question how much of it is social and how much is economic.

OP here. This doesn't really explain *why* you are concerned about your "social class." You are educated and wealthy- what is missing from your life? Are you ever in some social situation where you don't fit in despite having money and an education?

To answer the bolded question, no. In my life, I've generally found that the only color people care about is green. If you have the money to be there (including "fancy" places like charity galas and country clubs), they think you belong. We're not trying to join the social elite though so I'm sure that makes a difference.

I'm not concerned about our standing at all, I just find the topic interesting.

According to the profile writer in the other thread, my DH and I are "nouveau riche" which I get the sense from her posts most people think is the worst, lol. It's perfectly fine with me. I'd much rather splurge and have fun on vacation, buy nice cars, have a nice house, etc. then live such parsimonious lives as she says the UC do in America.

Honestly, it's a head scratcher to me as to why anyone would want to live like those people (Old Money WASPs). Reusing tinfoil? Driving the same beat up Volvo for over 20 years? Not updating the finishes in your house or going to fancy restaurants or luxury destinations? No thanks.

Nobody on that thread, or anywhere really, said old money doesn’t like restaurants or nice vacations. I have no idea where the thing about re-using tin foil comes from. The old car thing is true, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. This doesn't really explain *why* you are concerned about your "social class." You are educated and wealthy- what is missing from your life? Are you ever in some social situation where you don't fit in despite having money and an education?

NP here. But this question suggests to me that you must not be close to many people who grew up very differently than you did. My parents are immigrants who did well in the US as educated professionals. I grew up UMC/rich, and DH and I are now UMC/rich. Though his family has been in the US for generations (Mayflower on one side), there are similarities in our upbringings. He is also UMC, but his parents' income was lower and they have lower NW today.

DH and I are in fields (STEM PhD) that tend to be attainable to a broader set of SES backgrounds than the professions most UMC professionals work in (e.g. law, medicine). I've sat in professional trainings where people were taught which forks to use, how to introduce themselves at networking events, how to assess whether your "business casual" outfit is actually "business" or just "casual". The first time I encountered this kind of training, I thought it was so strange. All of this was stuff I was just expected to know by a pretty young age. But for many others, this was the first time someone had sat down to explain this stuff to them (though most of them had already picked up its importance). Pretending like these class differences don't exist and that they don't impact someone's career and social standing ultimately hurts people who did not grow up learning them.

OP here. My parents were immigrants and I think you are confusing the ability to pick up social cues with some sort of class difference. Introducing yourself at a network event is hard for many people because it can be awkward, not because they missed out on some sort of prior experience. Most people can figure out what "business casual" means or, worst case scenario, google it. The trainings you are talking about sound like they are for people who are awkward, not of a lower socioeconomic class.

I totally disagree. I grew up with plenty of awkward people in my mostly non-immigrant community. We were still all taught these things in the course of growing up. Many people are not taught these things because of class differences, and it can be overwhelming to figure it out. Certainly, there are some people who are extremely adept at figuring these things out without instruction. But you don't have to be particularly awkward to benefit from some coaching in these areas. I know plenty of people who are in no way awkward, but also just never learned subtle things like the way hierarchy impacts how you make introductions at a networking event. I grew up absorbing those things to the point where I don't even think about them. But as I've interacted more and more with people who did not grow up like me and had them tell me what was hard, I've come to appreciate that these are class advantages I didn't even know I had.

I disagree, too. If you read Hillbilly Elegy, the author, J. D. Vance, talks about how he showed up to his first job interview in his army fatigues. He had never worn a suit and didn’t get that it would be necessary. Nor did he get the job. Granted, his mom was an addict, but still. He ended up going to Yale Law School, but he writes about how he had to learn all the cultural capital others took for granted.

A few years ago I went to a business dinner at a museum and sat at the table with the event’s host and some others. I remember the host closely watching one poor young guy as he paved his whole roll with butter. Ugh, yes, to this host. But also, if these things matter to some people (like good grammar and knowing when it’s ok to use bad grammar), then it helps to know them yourself. I’m guessing some ops here want to avoid making avoidable mistakes in front of business associates or friends who matter.

[Anonymous]

My guess.....

This isn’t about knowing which fork to use, because anybody can google that.

It’s about a fear of sticking your foot in it some other way, like taking the family to Portugal (lol, still not sure where that’s coming from). Or, more seriously, flashing your money around on the wrong house or car.

In other words, it’s about gaining confidence about a social code you didn't grow up with. At work, this could mean money lost. At home, not everybody is comfortable with the neighbors thinking they’re nouveau riche.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My guess.....

This isn’t about knowing which fork to use, because anybody can google that.

It’s about a fear of sticking your foot in it some other way, like taking the family to Portugal (lol, still not sure where that’s coming from). Or, more seriously, flashing your money around on the wrong house or car.

In other words, it’s about gaining confidence about a social code you didn't grow up with. At work, this could mean money lost. At home, not everybody is comfortable with the neighbors thinking they’re nouveau riche.

This!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find the existence of the thousands of threads on this so interesting. Partly because my parents come from a country where lower class people have a much harder time changing their “class”- they can’t afford to take care of their teeth, they speak differently, dress differently, etc. It’s a much more marked difference than in America where the differences between a middle class person and an upper class person are more subtle. Personally it’s not something I think about with regards to my own standing- as long as my children grow up to be educated and civic-minded with decent jobs and teeth I think they will be fine. That’s mostly what I worry about.

What drives the interest in this? Do you think people feel insecure about their place in society? Like, if they are perceived as lower class then they and their children will be locked out of opportunities? Is this another symptom of the wealth gap in our country, that a bunch of middle class women obsess about this endlessly?

It's fun. And not something one can easily discuss without being criticized, which makes it perfect fodder for an anonymous message board. Lighten up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the existence of the thousands of threads on this so interesting. Partly because my parents come from a country where lower class people have a much harder time changing their “class”- they can’t afford to take care of their teeth, they speak differently, dress differently, etc. It’s a much more marked difference than in America where the differences between a middle class person and an upper class person are more subtle. Personally it’s not something I think about with regards to my own standing- as long as my children grow up to be educated and civic-minded with decent jobs and teeth I think they will be fine. That’s mostly what I worry about.

What drives the interest in this? Do you think people feel insecure about their place in society? Like, if they are perceived as lower class then they and their children will be locked out of opportunities? Is this another symptom of the wealth gap in our country, that a bunch of middle class women obsess about this endlessly?

It's fun. And not something one can easily discuss without being criticized, which makes it perfect fodder for an anonymous message board. Lighten up.

If by "fun" you mean "incredibly lame" and and "tiresome" and "bizarre" then yes, I agree, it's "fun."

But on another level it's fascinating that some people actually worry/think about these issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. This doesn't really explain *why* you are concerned about your "social class." You are educated and wealthy- what is missing from your life? Are you ever in some social situation where you don't fit in despite having money and an education?

NP here. But this question suggests to me that you must not be close to many people who grew up very differently than you did. My parents are immigrants who did well in the US as educated professionals. I grew up UMC/rich, and DH and I are now UMC/rich. Though his family has been in the US for generations (Mayflower on one side), there are similarities in our upbringings. He is also UMC, but his parents' income was lower and they have lower NW today.

DH and I are in fields (STEM PhD) that tend to be attainable to a broader set of SES backgrounds than the professions most UMC professionals work in (e.g. law, medicine). I've sat in professional trainings where people were taught which forks to use, how to introduce themselves at networking events, how to assess whether your "business casual" outfit is actually "business" or just "casual". The first time I encountered this kind of training, I thought it was so strange. All of this was stuff I was just expected to know by a pretty young age. But for many others, this was the first time someone had sat down to explain this stuff to them (though most of them had already picked up its importance). Pretending like these class differences don't exist and that they don't impact someone's career and social standing ultimately hurts people who did not grow up learning them.

OP here. My parents were immigrants and I think you are confusing the ability to pick up social cues with some sort of class difference. Introducing yourself at a network event is hard for many people because it can be awkward, not because they missed out on some sort of prior experience. Most people can figure out what "business casual" means or, worst case scenario, google it. The trainings you are talking about sound like they are for people who are awkward, not of a lower socioeconomic class.

I totally disagree. I grew up with plenty of awkward people in my mostly non-immigrant community. We were still all taught these things in the course of growing up. Many people are not taught these things because of class differences, and it can be overwhelming to figure it out. Certainly, there are some people who are extremely adept at figuring these things out without instruction. But you don't have to be particularly awkward to benefit from some coaching in these areas. I know plenty of people who are in no way awkward, but also just never learned subtle things like the way hierarchy impacts how you make introductions at a networking event. I grew up absorbing those things to the point where I don't even think about them. But as I've interacted more and more with people who did not grow up like me and had them tell me what was hard, I've come to appreciate that these are class advantages I didn't even know I had.

I disagree, too. If you read Hillbilly Elegy, the author, J. D. Vance, talks about how he showed up to his first job interview in his army fatigues. He had never worn a suit and didn’t get that it would be necessary. Nor did he get the job. Granted, his mom was an addict, but still. He ended up going to Yale Law School, but he writes about how he had to learn all the cultural capital others took for granted.

A few years ago I went to a business dinner at a museum and sat at the table with the event’s host and some others. I remember the host closely watching one poor young guy as he paved his whole roll with butter. Ugh, yes, to this host. But also, if these things matter to some people (like good grammar and knowing when it’s ok to use bad grammar), then it helps to know them yourself. I’m guessing some ops here want to avoid making avoidable mistakes in front of business associates or friends who matter.

Few if any people on DCUM are currently poor young Army recruits living in Appalachia and struggling with how to interview. Why are a bunch of middle class to wealthy people worrying about mcmansions and whether Stickley furniture and trips to Portugal make them "strivers?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the existence of the thousands of threads on this so interesting. Partly because my parents come from a country where lower class people have a much harder time changing their “class”- they can’t afford to take care of their teeth, they speak differently, dress differently, etc. It’s a much more marked difference than in America where the differences between a middle class person and an upper class person are more subtle. Personally it’s not something I think about with regards to my own standing- as long as my children grow up to be educated and civic-minded with decent jobs and teeth I think they will be fine. That’s mostly what I worry about.

What drives the interest in this? Do you think people feel insecure about their place in society? Like, if they are perceived as lower class then they and their children will be locked out of opportunities? Is this another symptom of the wealth gap in our country, that a bunch of middle class women obsess about this endlessly?

It's fun. And not something one can easily discuss without being criticized, which makes it perfect fodder for an anonymous message board. Lighten up.

If by "fun" you mean "incredibly lame" and and "tiresome" and "bizarre" then yes, I agree, it's "fun."

But on another level it's fascinating that some people actually worry/think about these issues.

DP. So don’t read the threads. And we won’t read your totally banal threads about how you can’t figure out by yourself how to fire your nanny, or Laura Trevyan’s accent and what John Legend and Chrissy Teigen are doing, or how your cat should be allowed to poop in your neighbors’ yard.

How is this hard?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well fwiw, I wouldn't say I am "obsessed" but I find the topic interesting. Primarily because I am a person who changed classes (maybe). Grew up poor, parents worked as a waitress and mechanic, barely got by, I'm a first generation college graduate, then I got a master's degree. Husband grew up the same way then through luck was involved in an IPO and made millions. Of course that was life changing. It kind of felt a little bit like winning the lottery. But I don't feel that the "social" part of our class changed that much.

The word is "social class" right? So I think it's interesting to question how much of it is social and how much is economic.

OP here. This doesn't really explain *why* you are concerned about your "social class." You are educated and wealthy- what is missing from your life? Are you ever in some social situation where you don't fit in despite having money and an education?

To answer the bolded question, no. In my life, I've generally found that the only color people care about is green. If you have the money to be there (including "fancy" places like charity galas and country clubs), they think you belong. We're not trying to join the social elite though so I'm sure that makes a difference.

I'm not concerned about our standing at all, I just find the topic interesting.

According to the profile writer in the other thread, my DH and I are "nouveau riche" which I get the sense from her posts most people think is the worst, lol. It's perfectly fine with me. I'd much rather splurge and have fun on vacation, buy nice cars, have a nice house, etc. then live such parsimonious lives as she says the UC do in America.

Honestly, it's a head scratcher to me as to why anyone would want to live like those people (Old Money WASPs). Reusing tinfoil? Driving the same beat up Volvo for over 20 years? Not updating the finishes in your house or going to fancy restaurants or luxury destinations? No thanks.

I think I can step in here and explain this, Waspily, as I come from the Old Money WASP culture thing. It’s pragmatic. You never, ever touch your capital. Instead, you live off the interest that capital accrues. And you don’t work, unless it’s in a gentleman’s profession that you do because you enjoy it. So while you have money, the amount you can actually live on is likely to be less than what people with salaried professions are bringing in. And you pay in full for everything, because that way you spend a tiny percentage of what everyone else does for the same things. No mortgage, house bought outright; no student loans; no car payments; no credit cards except Amex, ever. It looks mysterious and arcane to people, but it really isn’t. It’s capitalism. If you earn a bunch of money and you’ve never had money before you’re probably going to spend it. That’s why that way of life is called new money, and it isn’t going to last. And the other way of life is called old money, because it has been around for a while and will continue to be. Also, if you grew up with money, you know that money doesn’t make people happy. I mean, you KNOW it. And, you probably don’t really want people knowing you have that money, because it’s so antithetical to the whole work-all-the-time and pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps and the-poor-are-lazy-and-deserve-to-be-poor ethos that Americans are so sold on. But, you have time, which no one can put a price on. My mother always reused tinfoil.