Daughter and friend play dress up - in hajib

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would wearing a hijab/burqua offend your feminist sensibilities?

The only post I see that would start flames are ones like your's, PP. You are just begging for it so here goes...

Because they are demeaning to women. They make women second class citizens. They make it seem as if women have something to hide or be ashamed of that men do not. They are a means of keeping women oppressed andc controlled. They assist in keeping women physically inferior to men by diminshing natural physical abilities such as running. They allow abusive men to hide their crime. They create an over sexed and chauvanistic mentality toward all women by hiding the natural face and form of women.

Few Islamists made their wives and daughters wear these garments 50 (and more) years ago. Its a reflection of a growing fundamentalism in the Muslim world and demonstrates how humans, when confronted with certain external stresses, will turn on the most vulnerable populations to among them to make them feel more in control.

The hijab in itself shouldn't offend anyone, which is what I thought the PP was pointing out. You, on the other hand, only see one aspect of hijab's place in any particular culture. Yes, in some cultures, women are forced to wear it (Saudi, Afghanistan). In many, women have complete freedom to choose.

Yes, that is what they like to tell themsleves and supposed "ignorant bigots" like me. But, it is a choice compelled by messages and beliefs that men have created and crafted. The very basis of the idea that women (and only women) should hide their figure and/or face from others is steeped in chauvanistic and controlling male attitudes. It is based on the belief that women need "help" to be chaste, that one can only be a "good" woman if she is chaste and completely lacking any sign of her sex. That the "sex" of the female gender is to blame for men's bad behavior. That somehow, women are to blame for men's lack of control. That just by looking the way she was created she encourages men's baser nature. You find the same "male controll and blame of women" in the story of Adam and Eve and in the purification rituals of CLS (Mormons) and orthodox Jews.

You hold a very low opinion of women, which is a shame.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't care, but then again, I spent the majority of my childhood in a conservative Muslim country (I'm American and not Muslim), had Muslim friends, and thought nothing of it. In fact, we used to wear my mom's abayas for fun and she never batted an eye, even though my parents are VERY conservative, evangelical Christian.

I think it's the same as dressing up as an any other make believe person. We also used to dress up as Pakistani women because one of my best friends was Pakistani and her mom let us wear her bangles and fancy scarves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't care, but then again, I spent the majority of my childhood in a conservative Muslim country (I'm American and not Muslim), had Muslim friends, and thought nothing of it. In fact, we used to wear my mom's abayas for fun and she never batted an eye, even though my parents are VERY conservative, evangelical Christian.

I think it's the same as dressing up as an any other make believe person. We also used to dress up as Pakistani women because one of my best friends was Pakistani and her mom let us wear her bangles and fancy scarves.

Kids like to dress up as exotic-to-them people. That's the whole point of playing dress up. I see no problem with your DD and friend wearing hijabs. Also, if you make a big deal out of it, she'll wonder why it's such a big deal and you'll make it a "forbidden" thing, making her want to do it more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would wearing a hijab/burqua offend your feminist sensibilities?

The only post I see that would start flames are ones like your's, PP. You are just begging for it so here goes...

Because they are demeaning to women. They make women second class citizens. They make it seem as if women have something to hide or be ashamed of that men do not. They are a means of keeping women oppressed andc controlled. They assist in keeping women physically inferior to men by diminshing natural physical abilities such as running. They allow abusive men to hide their crime. They create an over sexed and chauvanistic mentality toward all women by hiding the natural face and form of women.

Few Islamists made their wives and daughters wear these garments 50 (and more) years ago. Its a reflection of a growing fundamentalism in the Muslim world and demonstrates how humans, when confronted with certain external stresses, will turn on the most vulnerable populations to among them to make them feel more in control.

The comment above is very typical of contemporary, non-Muslim, feminists in North America and Western Europe who cannot understand why many women might willingly take up the hijab.

I'm a professor of religion, a mother, and a feminist-- I would strongly suggest that you read Saba Mahmood, The Politics of Piety. It's an academic text, so a bit rough on the reading, but it provides a more nuanced understanding of why Muslim women wear the hijab and take up practices of modesty. More importantly, the author, who started off with notions of Muslim women like the PP, helps the reader to see her own preconceptions about women's agency, progressive politics, and Islam.

OP again. I was raised Christian. From the get go I rejected the messages given to me by my religion about many things, including women. Many of my peers bought into those same stereotypes. Just because my peers think it's OK to accept the role of women as dictated by their religion doesn't mean I have to agree. I respect their right to their opinion even though I personally think they've been subjected to religious brainwashing. I feel the same way when I hear the hijab characterized as voluntary modesty.

[Anonymous]

zumbamama wrote:Didn't the Virgin Mary wear one too?

Depends on the social norms of the era in which the image of her was created. Who knows what Mary really wore?

[Anonymous]

The very basis of the idea that a woman needs physical barriers in order to be "modest" is a fabrication of male beliefs and behavior.

[Anonymous]

OP, have you ever spent time in a Muslim country? Or do you gather all your insight about Muslims and the hijab from American sources? I'm not saying that means you're wrong about anything or your thoughts are not valid, but the situation is more nuanced than you argue it.

For instance, would you be okay if your daughter wanted to walk around topless, as some African tribal women do? If you were to go somewhere in Africa or elsewhere where this was common, would you bare your breasts yourself? Or would you stick with standard American definition of modesty?

[Anonymous]

She is just playing dress up - who cares if it is hijab or princess. Are you upset bc you are a feminist and the role bothered you? Would you have been happier if she dressed up as a male Saudi or a mechanic?
Kids role play - it is not any different then dressing up on Halloween (if you let her).
Off topic - just bc you are a feminist does not mean your daughter will be - and I hope you let her be the person that she wants to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you ever spent time in a Muslim country? Or do you gather all your insight about Muslims and the hijab from American sources? I'm not saying that means you're wrong about anything or your thoughts are not valid, but the situation is more nuanced than you argue it.

For instance, would you be okay if your daughter wanted to walk around topless, as some African tribal women do? If you were to go somewhere in Africa or elsewhere where this was common, would you bare your breasts yourself? Or would you stick with standard American definition of modesty?

OP again.

Ah yes, I knew someone would bring the boob thing into it. Isn't it hypocritical, you ask, for Americans to voluntarily cover female boobs out of modesty, and yet males can go topless?

I am very jealous of the fact that men can be shirtless in summer. Sometimes this really pisses me off. I am willing to acknowledge, however, that women's breasts are a sexual organ. They are part of the reproductive process that feeds babies. Have we OVER sexualized breasts in this country? Absolutely. But, I can agree with our Western norm that we cover our sexual organs, and I personally include my double Ds in that category. To me, this practice can be rationalized. I am not capable of rationalizing why a woman's hair or head or face have to be covered, and a male's do not. Both genders have these features, they are not sexual organs, and they are not noticeably different in the male vs. the female.

All that said, I certainly acknowledge that I too am a result of the conditioning I've received about gender roles. So no, I'd probably have to stick with my American definition of modesty whereever I am. And acknowledge that this makes me a hypocrite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"But, it is a choice compelled by messages and beliefs that men have created and crafted. The very basis of the idea that women (and only women) should hide their figure and/or face from others is steeped in chauvanistic and controlling male attitudes."

This is false. Do you know any Muslims?

A hijab doesn't hide your face. It is not much different from the headscarves European women wore in the early 1900's.

[Anonymous]

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I don't see what the big deal is.

[Anonymous]

Im a Muslim with many aunts that cover up like the above picture. As much as would love to say my aunts are modest and religious I know for sure that that in not 100% of the reason some of them cover up. Some just do it bc they have gone gray, lost some hair and dont feel like dealing with it anymore. I think since covering up is the social norm in the middle east, they have just gone for it more so than to be modest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you sure they really meant to wear hijab vs. just draping themselves in scarves? Either way, I don't see any concern. Dress-up is a great time for kids to explore other ways to be. It doesn't mean they will actually choose to be them in real life.

OP here. Yes, I am sure. And I know that dressing up as anything doesn't mean one will become that thing/person. Just that she would so innocently slip on what to me is a symbol of female oppression, as another poster articulated so well. It was a cringe worthy moment for me. I kept my mouth shut and my prejudice to myself, however. I recognize that my visceral reaction is not one to be proud of.

You have to understand, in my house when we talk about God, we use the pronoun, "She". I am not a Christian.

I also do cringe at the whole Cinderella/Snow White/Disney thing. I'm very relieved that my child is becoming more interested in books than TV and I'm giving her lots of "girl power" stuff to read.

OP, for what it's worth, I consider the Cinderella/Snow White garb just as much a symbol of female oppression as the hijab (if not more).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"But, it is a choice compelled by messages and beliefs that men have created and crafted. The very basis of the idea that women (and only women) should hide their figure and/or face from others is steeped in chauvanistic and controlling male attitudes."

This is false. Do you know any Muslims?

A hijab doesn't hide your face. It is not much different from the headscarves European women wore in the early 1900's.

But we are no longer in the 1900s. That is more than one century [b]ago. We are in the 21st century!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would wearing a hijab/burqua offend your feminist sensibilities?

The only post I see that would start flames are ones like your's, PP. You are just begging for it so here goes...

Because they are demeaning to women. They make women second class citizens. They make it seem as if women have something to hide or be ashamed of that men do not. They are a means of keeping women oppressed andc controlled. They assist in keeping women physically inferior to men by diminshing natural physical abilities such as running. They allow abusive men to hide their crime. They create an over sexed and chauvanistic mentality toward all women by hiding the natural face and form of women.

Few Islamists made their wives and daughters wear these garments 50 (and more) years ago. Its a reflection of a growing fundamentalism in the Muslim world and demonstrates how humans, when confronted with certain external stresses, will turn on the most vulnerable populations to among them to make them feel more in control.

The hijab in itself shouldn't offend anyone, which is what I thought the PP was pointing out. You, on the other hand, only see one aspect of hijab's place in any particular culture. Yes, in some cultures, women are forced to wear it (Saudi, Afghanistan). In many, women have complete freedom to choose.

Yes, that is what they like to tell themsleves and supposed "ignorant bigots" like me. But, it is a choice compelled by messages and beliefs that [b]men have created and crafted.[/b] The very basis of the idea that women (and only women) should hide their figure and/or face from others is steeped in chauvanistic and controlling male attitudes. It is based on the belief that women need "help" to be chaste, that one can only be a "good" woman if she is chaste and completely lacking any sign of her sex. That the "sex" of the female gender is to blame for men's bad behavior. That somehow, women are to blame for men's lack of control. That just by looking the way she was created she encourages men's baser nature. You find the same "male controll and blame of women" in the story of Adam and Eve and in the purification rituals of CLS (Mormons) and orthodox Jews.

Ironically, this is why American women and girls (look at celebrities) dress like whores and gyrate on poles when they're 15.