Penn or Williams for pre-med?

[Anonymous]

Have a kid at Penn studying Engineering. Took a class with lots of pre-meds and my kid said the pre-meds could retake some things and the engineers could not.

There seem to be some policies to help make pre-meds successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn for sure. No one seriously thinks you have more opportunity at Williams unless they’re a lousy student

obviously there are far more opportunities at UPenn, but it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Williams has more opportunities than anyone attending could possibly utilize within four years, so that Williams offers 700 courses and UPenn offers 2500 isn't particularly meaningful unless you want to do cutting edge graduate level coursework (which most students at either school do not).

Williams, as a school with a 6:1 student to faculty ratio (vs. Penn's 8:1), a distinctive Oxford style tutorial program offering 2:1 student to faculty classes, and an honors program with a known track record of producing more academics per capita than UPenn (12th nationally vs. 90th), offers potentially the strongest quality of undergraduate education you can get in any college in America. 58% of UPenn classes are under 20 students, compared to 75% of Williams classes. Williams professors' top priority is their undergraduates; the academic advising and individualized mentorship is unbeatable. 80-90% of Williams students applying get into med school in a given year, whereas UPenn has historically ranged from 71-83%. In fact, Williams is a stronger feeder than UPenn for students enrolling at top medical schools per capita (though UPenn still ranks top 20 nationally).

Williams does all this while still doing comparably for feeding into Wall Street and top business schools at comparable rates to UPenn, in case you want to make an argument that Wharton has more professionally oriented students.

I don’t get the LAC obsession with PhD admission. Grad schools are disgustingly predatory and often toxic. I’d rather a kid get a job then delay it by 6 years.

+1, I graduated from a t3 lac and almost every professor tried pushing grad school at some point. Years out now, it doesn’t seem to offer much for these young undergrads who are just scared to get their first job. I’d much rather a school prepare its students to go into the real world than put them through the academic hazing camp we call grad school

Why are you replying to your own post? Because you're insecure and suffering a bit of cognitive dissonance, that's why.

You seem so sure of something you have no evidence of. We know who not to listen to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^also Penn is not more prestigious, not at all. They are equivalent in prestige.

At Quakers day there were lots of Asian families. Certain communities like Asian immigrants view UPenn as much more prestigious than Williams, which is relative unknown outside of the U.S. (or even to most of the U.S.). Not to say this is right but it is what it is in certain communities.

Even Asians can be wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn for sure. No one seriously thinks you have more opportunity at Williams unless they’re a lousy student

obviously there are far more opportunities at UPenn, but it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Williams has more opportunities than anyone attending could possibly utilize within four years, so that Williams offers 700 courses and UPenn offers 2500 isn't particularly meaningful unless you want to do cutting edge graduate level coursework (which most students at either school do not).

Williams, as a school with a 6:1 student to faculty ratio (vs. Penn's 8:1), a distinctive Oxford style tutorial program offering 2:1 student to faculty classes, and an honors program with a known track record of producing more academics per capita than UPenn (12th nationally vs. 90th), offers potentially the strongest quality of undergraduate education you can get in any college in America. 58% of UPenn classes are under 20 students, compared to 75% of Williams classes. Williams professors' top priority is their undergraduates; the academic advising and individualized mentorship is unbeatable. 80-90% of Williams students applying get into med school in a given year, whereas UPenn has historically ranged from 71-83%. In fact, Williams is a stronger feeder than UPenn for students enrolling at top medical schools per capita (though UPenn still ranks top 20 nationally).

Williams does all this while still doing comparably for feeding into Wall Street and top business schools at comparable rates to UPenn, in case you want to make an argument that Wharton has more professionally oriented students.

Let’s cut the fat.

It has a study abroad program in Oxford- doesn’t matter, you can do that from many other schools.

Tutorial is a course you only take once or a few times if you’re in the humanities. The tutorial options in STEM are skim and may not even be relevant for what you want to do. Also, other colleges discovered Independent Study decades ago.

Honors is just a thesis, nothing special.

Most of Penn and Williams courses are small. Penn has more students so there’s more range. It’s actually more impressive such a high percentage of people go to med school from a school as large as Penn- they’re clearly challenging students and getting them opportunities.

What does UPenn have? Multiple massive medical centers- some of the most important ones in their state. Many more research, advising, and shadowing opportunities. More funding for clubs related to healthcare. More talks, more visiting scholars, more everything. If you have any ambition at all, it makes more sense to go to Penn.

Apparently UPenn's advantages in having more access for medical opportunities do not matter if Williams has a comparable medical school acceptance rate and placement to top medical programs on a student adjusted basis. That's the whole point. UPenn is NOT superior to Williams in terms of outcomes, even if their undergrads have direct access to opportunities from a top ranked medical school. Williams students have enough distinctive aspects on their profile to be competitive. That's the argument you somehow fail to get, that it's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.

UPenn boosters think that career preparation is the end all be all. Williams students go to Williams because it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be on first hand terms with virtually all of your professors, unlike the vast majority of schools. It is an opportunity to explore widely and openly without any judgement, knowing you'll get a top notch education no matter what department you choose. The point is that Williams has a tutorial system for coursework that is easy to participate in and heavily advertised; at least 50% of their grads participate. How many UPenn students even take an independent study? Do they care about building deep relations with their peers and professors, or is it just all for the rat race? Williams students WANT a well-rounded, holistic liberal arts education; many STEM majors there will eagerly take non-STEM humanities simply for the intellectual fulfillment. The average UPenn STEM student sees humanities and social science requirements as an obstacle to be completed with the least resistance as possible.

There is published research on this that despite R1 graduates slightly outperforming baccalaureate colleges in terms of average MCAT score, the latter have higher medical school acceptance rates. And the reason is because the participation on high impact practices (HIPS)- things like study abroad, thesis, research, connections to faculty members- is considerably higher at those undergraduate focused schools. Take that analogy to UPenn vs. Williams and you get a similar account. UPenn students may be slightly stronger on average than Williams students, UPenn's science programs may be more competitive in preparing their grads for the MCAT than those at Williams, yet the level of individual advising and the average participation on HIPS helps their grads stand out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn for sure. No one seriously thinks you have more opportunity at Williams unless they’re a lousy student

obviously there are far more opportunities at UPenn, but it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Williams has more opportunities than anyone attending could possibly utilize within four years, so that Williams offers 700 courses and UPenn offers 2500 isn't particularly meaningful unless you want to do cutting edge graduate level coursework (which most students at either school do not).

Williams, as a school with a 6:1 student to faculty ratio (vs. Penn's 8:1), a distinctive Oxford style tutorial program offering 2:1 student to faculty classes, and an honors program with a known track record of producing more academics per capita than UPenn (12th nationally vs. 90th), offers potentially the strongest quality of undergraduate education you can get in any college in America. 58% of UPenn classes are under 20 students, compared to 75% of Williams classes. Williams professors' top priority is their undergraduates; the academic advising and individualized mentorship is unbeatable. 80-90% of Williams students applying get into med school in a given year, whereas UPenn has historically ranged from 71-83%. In fact, Williams is a stronger feeder than UPenn for students enrolling at top medical schools per capita (though UPenn still ranks top 20 nationally).

Williams does all this while still doing comparably for feeding into Wall Street and top business schools at comparable rates to UPenn, in case you want to make an argument that Wharton has more professionally oriented students.

Let’s cut the fat.

It has a study abroad program in Oxford- doesn’t matter, you can do that from many other schools.

Tutorial is a course you only take once or a few times if you’re in the humanities. The tutorial options in STEM are skim and may not even be relevant for what you want to do. Also, other colleges discovered Independent Study decades ago.

Honors is just a thesis, nothing special.

Most of Penn and Williams courses are small. Penn has more students so there’s more range. It’s actually more impressive such a high percentage of people go to med school from a school as large as Penn- they’re clearly challenging students and getting them opportunities.

What does UPenn have? Multiple massive medical centers- some of the most important ones in their state. Many more research, advising, and shadowing opportunities. More funding for clubs related to healthcare. More talks, more visiting scholars, more everything. If you have any ambition at all, it makes more sense to go to Penn.

Apparently UPenn's advantages in having more access for medical opportunities do not matter if Williams has a comparable medical school acceptance rate and placement to top medical programs on a student adjusted basis. That's the whole point. UPenn is NOT superior to Williams in terms of outcomes, even if their undergrads have direct access to opportunities from a top ranked medical school. Williams students have enough distinctive aspects on their profile to be competitive. That's the argument you somehow fail to get, that it's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.

UPenn boosters think that career preparation is the end all be all. Williams students go to Williams because it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be on first hand terms with virtually all of your professors, unlike the vast majority of schools. It is an opportunity to explore widely and openly without any judgement, knowing you'll get a top notch education no matter what department you choose. The point is that Williams has a tutorial system for coursework that is easy to participate in and heavily advertised; at least 50% of their grads participate. How many UPenn students even take an independent study? Do they care about building deep relations with their peers and professors, or is it just all for the rat race? Williams students WANT a well-rounded, holistic liberal arts education; many STEM majors there will eagerly take non-STEM humanities simply for the intellectual fulfillment. The average UPenn STEM student sees humanities and social science requirements as an obstacle to be completed with the least resistance as possible.

There is published research on this that despite R1 graduates slightly outperforming baccalaureate colleges in terms of average MCAT score, the latter have higher medical school acceptance rates. And the reason is because the participation on high impact practices (HIPS)- things like study abroad, thesis, research, connections to faculty members- is considerably higher at those undergraduate focused schools. Take that analogy to UPenn vs. Williams and you get a similar account. UPenn students may be slightly stronger on average than Williams students, UPenn's science programs may be more competitive in preparing their grads for the MCAT than those at Williams, yet the level of individual advising and the average participation on HIPS helps their grads stand out.

Penn has a lot more students to get into med school than Williams. It’s not that interesting that Williams has 10 people going to med school each year. Penn students factually have more opportunities and higher level research (MD PHD)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn seems to offer more pre-med research and internship opportunities, stronger science, higher prestige, and more viable plan B into other career options if the pre-med doesn’t work out. On the other hand, this DC’s learning style is more aligned with deep-discussion, close-mentorship style learning at Williams, if what they advertise is the reality.

Both locations excite this DC in different ways. Not an athlete, is not motivated by getting rich (Reddit says both schools have big finance/Wall Street big money culture which is not DC’s thing). Not excited about a hyper competitive campus culture, don’t know if that’s only Wharton/finance kids that are like that on the Penn campus, or if you get some of that on the Williams campus too with so many kids from elite privates and boarding schools. This kid just genuinely loves learning. Cost is not a deciding factor.

"Penn seems to offer more pre-med research and internship opportunities" - What is your basis for this opinion? What exactly is "pre-med" research? From and undergraduate perspective this is very debatable. Being in a large city will provide many options which may or may not help but the competition for spots will also be higher. By this standard Northeastern should be superior to Williams because their kids can and do intern at Brigham Women's but we both know that isn't at all the case.

"stronger science" - again, what is your basis for this opinion, that it is an R1? From and undergraduate perspective this is very debatable with very high academics 100% taught by professors and excellent lab opportunities at top SLACs. It is well known that top SLACs send greater proportions of kids into top Phd programs than R1s including for the sciences.

"higher prestige" - absolutely not true

"more viable plan B into other career options if the pre-med doesn’t work out" - again absolutely not true unless the pivot is engineering.

Overall you have some unfounded biases with nothing to back them up so I would say step back, take a deep breathe and pick the school that best fits your child. Two great choices.

Physician. Penn is the better choice. There is much more research and clinical hours available at Penn. Students can research at Williams but there are many more stem lab spots for undergrads per capita at penn than williams.
The clinical experience is much easier to be able to do at the college in the semester. Penn provides that. The main hospital and CHOP are in university city on penn’s campus. Going into philly is not needed. Not that it is far, but it is a bus ride or a 2 mile walk.
Penn classes are small for the most part. Premed courses anywhere are not “deep discussion” courses but penn certainly has plenty of small discussion based courses on a wide variety of topics.

[Anonymous]

if you want to do research at a bench, they both have that. both starting very early.

you'll have more hands-on clinical experience in a crap hospital at williams. you'll have very little hands on clinical experience in a top flight hospital at Penn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Successful med students demonstrate curiosity, integrity, empathy, growth mindset, humor, kindness, discipline, maturity, and ability to connect with all types of people. choose a college that will nurture these characteristics and the rest will follow. i find athletes and students who have worked in service jobs do particularly well.

- harvard med clerkship director

It’s well known that college athletes do particularly well in med school admissions as long as they have the grades and scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:if you want to do research at a bench, they both have that. both starting very early.

you'll have more hands-on clinical experience in a crap hospital at williams. you'll have very little hands on clinical experience in a top flight hospital at Penn.

The second statement is entirely false. So many more opportunities at major hospitals. what do you think the Boston area undergrads are doing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn for sure. No one seriously thinks you have more opportunity at Williams unless they’re a lousy student

obviously there are far more opportunities at UPenn, but it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Williams has more opportunities than anyone attending could possibly utilize within four years, so that Williams offers 700 courses and UPenn offers 2500 isn't particularly meaningful unless you want to do cutting edge graduate level coursework (which most students at either school do not).

Williams, as a school with a 6:1 student to faculty ratio (vs. Penn's 8:1), a distinctive Oxford style tutorial program offering 2:1 student to faculty classes, and an honors program with a known track record of producing more academics per capita than UPenn (12th nationally vs. 90th), offers potentially the strongest quality of undergraduate education you can get in any college in America. 58% of UPenn classes are under 20 students, compared to 75% of Williams classes. Williams professors' top priority is their undergraduates; the academic advising and individualized mentorship is unbeatable. 80-90% of Williams students applying get into med school in a given year, whereas UPenn has historically ranged from 71-83%. In fact, Williams is a stronger feeder than UPenn for students enrolling at top medical schools per capita (though UPenn still ranks top 20 nationally).

Williams does all this while still doing comparably for feeding into Wall Street and top business schools at comparable rates to UPenn, in case you want to make an argument that Wharton has more professionally oriented students.

Let’s cut the fat.

It has a study abroad program in Oxford- doesn’t matter, you can do that from many other schools.

Tutorial is a course you only take once or a few times if you’re in the humanities. The tutorial options in STEM are skim and may not even be relevant for what you want to do. Also, other colleges discovered Independent Study decades ago.

Honors is just a thesis, nothing special.

Most of Penn and Williams courses are small. Penn has more students so there’s more range. It’s actually more impressive such a high percentage of people go to med school from a school as large as Penn- they’re clearly challenging students and getting them opportunities.

What does UPenn have? Multiple massive medical centers- some of the most important ones in their state. Many more research, advising, and shadowing opportunities. More funding for clubs related to healthcare. More talks, more visiting scholars, more everything. If you have any ambition at all, it makes more sense to go to Penn.

Apparently UPenn's advantages in having more access for medical opportunities do not matter if Williams has a comparable medical school acceptance rate and placement to top medical programs on a student adjusted basis. That's the whole point. UPenn is NOT superior to Williams in terms of outcomes, even if their undergrads have direct access to opportunities from a top ranked medical school. Williams students have enough distinctive aspects on their profile to be competitive. That's the argument you somehow fail to get, that it's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.

UPenn boosters think that career preparation is the end all be all. Williams students go to Williams because it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be on first hand terms with virtually all of your professors, unlike the vast majority of schools. It is an opportunity to explore widely and openly without any judgement, knowing you'll get a top notch education no matter what department you choose. The point is that Williams has a tutorial system for coursework that is easy to participate in and heavily advertised; at least 50% of their grads participate. How many UPenn students even take an independent study? Do they care about building deep relations with their peers and professors, or is it just all for the rat race? Williams students WANT a well-rounded, holistic liberal arts education; many STEM majors there will eagerly take non-STEM humanities simply for the intellectual fulfillment. The average UPenn STEM student sees humanities and social science requirements as an obstacle to be completed with the least resistance as possible.

There is published research on this that despite R1 graduates slightly outperforming baccalaureate colleges in terms of average MCAT score, the latter have higher medical school acceptance rates. And the reason is because the participation on high impact practices (HIPS)- things like study abroad, thesis, research, connections to faculty members- is considerably higher at those undergraduate focused schools. Take that analogy to UPenn vs. Williams and you get a similar account. UPenn students may be slightly stronger on average than Williams students, UPenn's science programs may be more competitive in preparing their grads for the MCAT than those at Williams, yet the level of individual advising and the average participation on HIPS helps their grads stand out.

Penn has a lot more students to get into med school than Williams. It’s not that interesting that Williams has 10 people going to med school each year. Penn students factually have more opportunities and higher level research (MD PHD)

Can you point to proof? Williams grads have higher overall admit rates and higher rates into elite med schools, particularly into Harvard. Both points indicate the opposite of your assertion. And, Williams has far more than 10 going to med schools each year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you want to do research at a bench, they both have that. both starting very early.

you'll have more hands-on clinical experience in a crap hospital at williams. you'll have very little hands on clinical experience in a top flight hospital at Penn.

The second statement is entirely false. So many more opportunities at major hospitals. what do you think the Boston area undergrads are doing?

If that was the case Northeastern would be a great school for premed…..newsflash, it isn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you want to do research at a bench, they both have that. both starting very early.

you'll have more hands-on clinical experience in a crap hospital at williams. you'll have very little hands on clinical experience in a top flight hospital at Penn.

The second statement is entirely false. So many more opportunities at major hospitals. what do you think the Boston area undergrads are doing?

CURRENT Penn students say there are far more opportunities for nursing students than pre med. And underclassman have little opportunity. They want to make sure you're committed and have some coursework under your belt. I see the rational, but there are plenty of kids who, once they finally spend time in a clinical setting, decide not to pursue med school and that happens a lot later at Penn. If you know you're med school bound, it's probably not an issue

[Anonymous]

how competitive are research/shadowing opportunities at Penn?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn for sure. No one seriously thinks you have more opportunity at Williams unless they’re a lousy student

obviously there are far more opportunities at UPenn, but it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Williams has more opportunities than anyone attending could possibly utilize within four years, so that Williams offers 700 courses and UPenn offers 2500 isn't particularly meaningful unless you want to do cutting edge graduate level coursework (which most students at either school do not).

Williams, as a school with a 6:1 student to faculty ratio (vs. Penn's 8:1), a distinctive Oxford style tutorial program offering 2:1 student to faculty classes, and an honors program with a known track record of producing more academics per capita than UPenn (12th nationally vs. 90th), offers potentially the strongest quality of undergraduate education you can get in any college in America. 58% of UPenn classes are under 20 students, compared to 75% of Williams classes. Williams professors' top priority is their undergraduates; the academic advising and individualized mentorship is unbeatable. 80-90% of Williams students applying get into med school in a given year, whereas UPenn has historically ranged from 71-83%. In fact, Williams is a stronger feeder than UPenn for students enrolling at top medical schools per capita (though UPenn still ranks top 20 nationally).

Williams does all this while still doing comparably for feeding into Wall Street and top business schools at comparable rates to UPenn, in case you want to make an argument that Wharton has more professionally oriented students.

Let’s cut the fat.

It has a study abroad program in Oxford- doesn’t matter, you can do that from many other schools.

Tutorial is a course you only take once or a few times if you’re in the humanities. The tutorial options in STEM are skim and may not even be relevant for what you want to do. Also, other colleges discovered Independent Study decades ago.

Honors is just a thesis, nothing special.

Most of Penn and Williams courses are small. Penn has more students so there’s more range. It’s actually more impressive such a high percentage of people go to med school from a school as large as Penn- they’re clearly challenging students and getting them opportunities.

What does UPenn have? Multiple massive medical centers- some of the most important ones in their state. Many more research, advising, and shadowing opportunities. More funding for clubs related to healthcare. More talks, more visiting scholars, more everything. If you have any ambition at all, it makes more sense to go to Penn.

Apparently UPenn's advantages in having more access for medical opportunities do not matter if Williams has a comparable medical school acceptance rate and placement to top medical programs on a student adjusted basis. That's the whole point. UPenn is NOT superior to Williams in terms of outcomes, even if their undergrads have direct access to opportunities from a top ranked medical school. Williams students have enough distinctive aspects on their profile to be competitive. That's the argument you somehow fail to get, that it's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.

UPenn boosters think that career preparation is the end all be all. Williams students go to Williams because it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be on first hand terms with virtually all of your professors, unlike the vast majority of schools. It is an opportunity to explore widely and openly without any judgement, knowing you'll get a top notch education no matter what department you choose. The point is that Williams has a tutorial system for coursework that is easy to participate in and heavily advertised; at least 50% of their grads participate. How many UPenn students even take an independent study? Do they care about building deep relations with their peers and professors, or is it just all for the rat race? Williams students WANT a well-rounded, holistic liberal arts education; many STEM majors there will eagerly take non-STEM humanities simply for the intellectual fulfillment. The average UPenn STEM student sees humanities and social science requirements as an obstacle to be completed with the least resistance as possible.

There is published research on this that despite R1 graduates slightly outperforming baccalaureate colleges in terms of average MCAT score, the latter have higher medical school acceptance rates. And the reason is because the participation on high impact practices (HIPS)- things like study abroad, thesis, research, connections to faculty members- is considerably higher at those undergraduate focused schools. Take that analogy to UPenn vs. Williams and you get a similar account. UPenn students may be slightly stronger on average than Williams students, UPenn's science programs may be more competitive in preparing their grads for the MCAT than those at Williams, yet the level of individual advising and the average participation on HIPS helps their grads stand out.

Penn has a lot more students to get into med school than Williams. It’s not that interesting that Williams has 10 people going to med school each year. Penn students factually have more opportunities and higher level research (MD PHD)

Can you point to proof? Williams grads have higher overall admit rates and higher rates into elite med schools, particularly into Harvard. Both points indicate the opposite of your assertion. And, Williams has far more than 10 going to med schools each year.

Penn feeds into Penn and Harvard as the top 2 medical schools and Williams feeds into Harvard and Penn as the top 2 medical schools. Nearly every university affiliated with a Medical School has it's undergrad as the #1 feeder. I don't believe anyone actually thinks Harvard Medical School and Penn Medical School are really any different.

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn seems to offer more pre-med research and internship opportunities, stronger science, higher prestige, and more viable plan B into other career options if the pre-med doesn’t work out. On the other hand, this DC’s learning style is more aligned with deep-discussion, close-mentorship style learning at Williams, if what they advertise is the reality.

Both locations excite this DC in different ways. Not an athlete, is not motivated by getting rich (Reddit says both schools have big finance/Wall Street big money culture which is not DC’s thing). Not excited about a hyper competitive campus culture, don’t know if that’s only Wharton/finance kids that are like that on the Penn campus, or if you get some of that on the Williams campus too with so many kids from elite privates and boarding schools. This kid just genuinely loves learning. Cost is not a deciding factor.

"Penn seems to offer more pre-med research and internship opportunities" - What is your basis for this opinion? What exactly is "pre-med" research? From and undergraduate perspective this is very debatable. Being in a large city will provide many options which may or may not help but the competition for spots will also be higher. By this standard Northeastern should be superior to Williams because their kids can and do intern at Brigham Women's but we both know that isn't at all the case.

"stronger science" - again, what is your basis for this opinion, that it is an R1? From and undergraduate perspective this is very debatable with very high academics 100% taught by professors and excellent lab opportunities at top SLACs. It is well known that top SLACs send greater proportions of kids into top Phd programs than R1s including for the sciences.

"higher prestige" - absolutely not true

"more viable plan B into other career options if the pre-med doesn’t work out" - again absolutely not true unless the pivot is engineering.

Overall you have some unfounded biases with nothing to back them up so I would say step back, take a deep breathe and pick the school that best fits your child. Two great choices.

Physician. Penn is the better choice. There is much more research and clinical hours available at Penn. Students can research at Williams but there are many more stem lab spots for undergrads per capita at penn than williams.
The clinical experience is much easier to be able to do at the college in the semester. Penn provides that. The main hospital and CHOP are in university city on penn’s campus. Going into philly is not needed. Not that it is far, but it is a bus ride or a 2 mile walk.
Penn classes are small for the most part. Premed courses anywhere are not “deep discussion” courses but penn certainly has plenty of small discussion based courses on a wide variety of topics.

Your undergrad stem lab spot comment is flat out wrong. Most lab spots are filled by grad students because that is the R1 business model.

My kid is a premed at a different elite school. Been advised for years by family friend UVA undergrad, Stanford Med, professor at Stanford and former admissions reader.

He has always said that the best prepared med students always come from SLACs. Smartest kid in his class was from Wesleyan, roommate was from Williams. One guys opinion but he’s got the cred to defend it.