Penn or Williams for pre-med?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who claim SLACs are great for getting research opportunities due to their low student-faculty ratio, overlook the fact that professors there are typically *not* leading researchers in their areas. After all, if they are doing anything cutting-edge, why are they not at an R1 pulling in millions of research fundings and churning out papers like a well-oiled machine? I mean, professors at lowly directional schools also do research, but their topics in general aren't worthy of support from NSF/NIH/DOE/DOD. If they submit research proposals to these funding agencies, the proposals would be killed right away. So how are professors at SLACs any different? And why do kids want to do research on topics that aren't significant/timely, under the supervision of professors who aren't well-known/respected in their research communities?

The SLAC lab that my kids works in has almost a million dollars across a couple of significant NSF grants. You don’t know what you are talking about. It is true that SLACs aren’t super reliant on fed funding but that means the funding will stay in place. R1s which lose funding will direct all of what is left to keeping their grad students fed.

You are exaggerating the funding cut issues at R1s, making it sounds like it's an ongoing crisis while SLACs are safe. An R1 received research funding that is several orders of magnitude larger than that received by any SLAC. Even if there is cut here and there (which, by the way, is an issue that has blown over), the amount available still dwarfs that at any SLAC and is more than enough for the tiny stipends undergraduates receive.

In my twenty years of working as a STEM faculty at an R1, I have never reviewed any journal/conference manuscripts written by SLAC faculty, nor evaluated any research proposals submitted to NSF/DOE that came from SLAC. I'm sure you can point out some papers/grants/contracts here and there, but they are very few and far between. Research at SLAC has never been mainstream and most likely will remain that way.

I rather my kids work with active, accomplished researchers at R1s on projects funded with hard-to-get federal money which says something about the timeliness and significance of the research, than to have them work with lesser known researchers at SLACs on pet projects that have limited impact.

+1

[Anonymous]

Pick Penn.

[Anonymous]

Pick the one where you think you'll be happy and thrive enough to get good grades if you want to go to medical school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who claim SLACs are great for getting research opportunities due to their low student-faculty ratio, overlook the fact that professors there are typically *not* leading researchers in their areas. After all, if they are doing anything cutting-edge, why are they not at an R1 pulling in millions of research fundings and churning out papers like a well-oiled machine? I mean, professors at lowly directional schools also do research, but their topics in general aren't worthy of support from NSF/NIH/DOE/DOD. If they submit research proposals to these funding agencies, the proposals would be killed right away. So how are professors at SLACs any different? And why do kids want to do research on topics that aren't significant/timely, under the supervision of professors who aren't well-known/respected in their research communities?

The SLAC lab that my kids works in has almost a million dollars across a couple of significant NSF grants. You don’t know what you are talking about. It is true that SLACs aren’t super reliant on fed funding but that means the funding will stay in place. R1s which lose funding will direct all of what is left to keeping their grad students fed.

You are exaggerating the funding cut issues at R1s, making it sounds like it's an ongoing crisis while SLACs are safe. An R1 received research funding that is several orders of magnitude larger than that received by any SLAC. Even if there is cut here and there (which, by the way, is an issue that has blown over), the amount available still dwarfs that at any SLAC and is more than enough for the tiny stipends undergraduates receive.

In my twenty years of working as a STEM faculty at an R1, I have never reviewed any journal/conference manuscripts written by SLAC faculty, nor evaluated any research proposals submitted to NSF/DOE that came from SLAC. I'm sure you can point out some papers/grants/contracts here and there, but they are very few and far between. Research at SLAC has never been mainstream and most likely will remain that way.

I rather my kids work with active, accomplished researchers at R1s on projects funded with hard-to-get federal money which says something about the timeliness and significance of the research, than to have them work with lesser known researchers at SLACs on pet projects that have limited impact.

If you’re a faculty member, I’m a bit confused by this position. Why can’t your kids be educated at a liberal arts college, participate in guided research to improve their skills, and work closely with R1 professors during the summer/semester while getting preference for admission to summer research programs. My daughter goes to Amherst but has spent summers at MIT/Harvard (Broad), Yale, Princeton, and is moving on to a PhD at Berkeley after a quick stop in Cambridge. She has been able to work with various top research faculty in various disciplines you'd respect, published 4 times, and also work in her home lab and get guided mentorship there. I don’t see how going to Harvard or whatnot would meaningfully change her trajectory and professors seem to agree with me (many faculty children attending LACs).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll never understand how parents here believe that research is hard to get at Research universities. There's this mythos of LACs that is incessant.

I was a grad student at a top R1. R1s are set up for grad students, not undergraduates. I know that you don’t like hearing it but we’re not lying to you. It’s not the same everywhere but in the lab I worked in nobody wanted undergraduates around. They just get in the way of work.

I’ll also add there are many lac profs who don’t work with undergrads either. I actually know 2 at Pomona in a department who haven’t published once with undergrads.

Link or doesn’t exist….mu money is on doesn’t exist because that is anti ethical to the SLAC model.

https://profjorgemoreno.wordpress.com/about/
Prof. Moreno collaborates with professors and grad students at major universities, not Pomona.

Jonathan Lethem takes 0 summer research projects or independent studies with students, because he’s bigger than Claremont.

Your example of Lethem is nonsensical.

Because…
Truth hurts.

[Anonymous]

Penn.

Penn Medicine + CHoP are adjacent to campus. Philly is a great place to go to college. Unmatched Ivy alumni network, though SLAC alums tend to be very loyal.
Access to research, volunteering, and shadowing opportunities during the school year, so summers can be used more wisely.
Williamstown can get very boring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll never understand how parents here believe that research is hard to get at Research universities. There's this mythos of LACs that is incessant.

I was a grad student at a top R1. R1s are set up for grad students, not undergraduates. I know that you don’t like hearing it but we’re not lying to you. It’s not the same everywhere but in the lab I worked in nobody wanted undergraduates around. They just get in the way of work.

I’ll also add there are many lac profs who don’t work with undergrads either. I actually know 2 at Pomona in a department who haven’t published once with undergrads.

Link or doesn’t exist….mu money is on doesn’t exist because that is anti ethical to the SLAC model.

https://profjorgemoreno.wordpress.com/about/
Prof. Moreno collaborates with professors and grad students at major universities, not Pomona.

Jonathan Lethem takes 0 summer research projects or independent studies with students, because he’s bigger than Claremont.

Your example of Lethem is nonsensical.

As is the statement about Prof Moreno, whose personal website shows the majority of students he advised were undergrads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who claim SLACs are great for getting research opportunities due to their low student-faculty ratio, overlook the fact that professors there are typically *not* leading researchers in their areas. After all, if they are doing anything cutting-edge, why are they not at an R1 pulling in millions of research fundings and churning out papers like a well-oiled machine? I mean, professors at lowly directional schools also do research, but their topics in general aren't worthy of support from NSF/NIH/DOE/DOD. If they submit research proposals to these funding agencies, the proposals would be killed right away. So how are professors at SLACs any different? And why do kids want to do research on topics that aren't significant/timely, under the supervision of professors who aren't well-known/respected in their research communities?

The SLAC lab that my kids works in has almost a million dollars across a couple of significant NSF grants. You don’t know what you are talking about. It is true that SLACs aren’t super reliant on fed funding but that means the funding will stay in place. R1s which lose funding will direct all of what is left to keeping their grad students fed.

You are exaggerating the funding cut issues at R1s, making it sounds like it's an ongoing crisis while SLACs are safe. An R1 received research funding that is several orders of magnitude larger than that received by any SLAC. Even if there is cut here and there (which, by the way, is an issue that has blown over), the amount available still dwarfs that at any SLAC and is more than enough for the tiny stipends undergraduates receive.

In my twenty years of working as a STEM faculty at an R1, I have never reviewed any journal/conference manuscripts written by SLAC faculty, nor evaluated any research proposals submitted to NSF/DOE that came from SLAC. I'm sure you can point out some papers/grants/contracts here and there, but they are very few and far between. Research at SLAC has never been mainstream and most likely will remain that way.

I rather my kids work with active, accomplished researchers at R1s on projects funded with hard-to-get federal money which says something about the timeliness and significance of the research, than to have them work with lesser known researchers at SLACs on pet projects that have limited impact.

The only thing that I am sure of in your comment is that you are not STEM faculty at an R1. If you were you wouldn’t make such a ridiculous statement because 5 minutes spent researching the faculty of any top SLAC will turn up professors with long lists of publications.

Believe what you will. Perhaps because I'm in engineering, I've never seen any SLAC faculty doing anything of note. Go to the website of any major conference in any field of engineering, and look at the schools listed in the conference program. You will be hard pressed to find a Williams or Amherst or Swarthmore paper. The papers are nearly all from both elite and non-elite-but-still-decent engineering schools, as well as schools from Asia/Europe.

Ok, if my personal anecdote isn't convincing, how about some cold hard data? According to NSF's 2024 ranking by total R&D expenditures (https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?method=rankingbysource&ds=herd), which includes all areas of STEM, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Pomona are ranked 415, 388, 435, and 457, respectively. For context, schools in the northeast that no one here talks about—Temple, George Mason, ODU, and Towson—are ranked 107, 115, 202, and 315, far outperforming these top SLACs. Sure, SLACs are small, but when they are so far down the list, one has to question how much meaningful research are they generating? The answer is not much. They simply couldn't compete.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who claim SLACs are great for getting research opportunities due to their low student-faculty ratio, overlook the fact that professors there are typically *not* leading researchers in their areas. After all, if they are doing anything cutting-edge, why are they not at an R1 pulling in millions of research fundings and churning out papers like a well-oiled machine? I mean, professors at lowly directional schools also do research, but their topics in general aren't worthy of support from NSF/NIH/DOE/DOD. If they submit research proposals to these funding agencies, the proposals would be killed right away. So how are professors at SLACs any different? And why do kids want to do research on topics that aren't significant/timely, under the supervision of professors who aren't well-known/respected in their research communities?

The SLAC lab that my kids works in has almost a million dollars across a couple of significant NSF grants. You don’t know what you are talking about. It is true that SLACs aren’t super reliant on fed funding but that means the funding will stay in place. R1s which lose funding will direct all of what is left to keeping their grad students fed.

You are exaggerating the funding cut issues at R1s, making it sounds like it's an ongoing crisis while SLACs are safe. An R1 received research funding that is several orders of magnitude larger than that received by any SLAC. Even if there is cut here and there (which, by the way, is an issue that has blown over), the amount available still dwarfs that at any SLAC and is more than enough for the tiny stipends undergraduates receive.

In my twenty years of working as a STEM faculty at an R1, I have never reviewed any journal/conference manuscripts written by SLAC faculty, nor evaluated any research proposals submitted to NSF/DOE that came from SLAC. I'm sure you can point out some papers/grants/contracts here and there, but they are very few and far between. Research at SLAC has never been mainstream and most likely will remain that way.

I rather my kids work with active, accomplished researchers at R1s on projects funded with hard-to-get federal money which says something about the timeliness and significance of the research, than to have them work with lesser known researchers at SLACs on pet projects that have limited impact.

The only thing that I am sure of in your comment is that you are not STEM faculty at an R1. If you were you wouldn’t make such a ridiculous statement because 5 minutes spent researching the faculty of any top SLAC will turn up professors with long lists of publications.

Believe what you will. Perhaps because I'm in engineering, I've never seen any SLAC faculty doing anything of note. Go to the website of any major conference in any field of engineering, and look at the schools listed in the conference program. You will be hard pressed to find a Williams or Amherst or Swarthmore paper. The papers are nearly all from both elite and non-elite-but-still-decent engineering schools, as well as schools from Asia/Europe.

Ok, if my personal anecdote isn't convincing, how about some cold hard data? According to NSF's 2024 ranking by total R&D expenditures (https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?method=rankingbysource&ds=herd), which includes all areas of STEM, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Pomona are ranked 415, 388, 435, and 457, respectively. For context, schools in the northeast that no one here talks about—Temple, George Mason, ODU, and Towson—are ranked 107, 115, 202, and 315, far outperforming these top SLACs. Sure, SLACs are small, but when they are so far down the list, one has to question how much meaningful research are they generating? The answer is not much. They simply couldn't compete.

Your thinking is a bit confusing to me. Very few LACs have engineering yet you are using engineering as your research benchmark? You might want to step back and think about that one.

Then you move on to comparing undergraduate colleges to R1s for research expenditures. Again quite confusing trying to compare the research spending of a LAC to that of a graduate school.

Top LACs generate research because their professors still perform research. It may not be cutting edge research but then again neither is the research at many of the R1s that you mentioned above. Both types of schools contribute to the body of knowledge even if they aren’t making breakthrough discoveries. Undergraduates get to participate in that research because LACs are primarily undergraduate institutions, not schools which need to graduate a large number of Phds every year just maintain their classification.

What undergraduates get from this environment is real learning, they are active participants, they are engaged in real learning which isn’t the case at a significant R1.

You are comparing apples to oranges and your conclusions just don’t make sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll never understand how parents here believe that research is hard to get at Research universities. There's this mythos of LACs that is incessant.

I was a grad student at a top R1. R1s are set up for grad students, not undergraduates. I know that you don’t like hearing it but we’re not lying to you. It’s not the same everywhere but in the lab I worked in nobody wanted undergraduates around. They just get in the way of work.

I’ll also add there are many lac profs who don’t work with undergrads either. I actually know 2 at Pomona in a department who haven’t published once with undergrads.

Link or doesn’t exist….mu money is on doesn’t exist because that is anti ethical to the SLAC model.

https://profjorgemoreno.wordpress.com/about/
Prof. Moreno collaborates with professors and grad students at major universities, not Pomona.

Jonathan Lethem takes 0 summer research projects or independent studies with students, because he’s bigger than Claremont.

Your example of Lethem is nonsensical.

As is the statement about Prof Moreno, whose personal website shows the majority of students he advised were undergrads.

Yet none are on a single paper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll never understand how parents here believe that research is hard to get at Research universities. There's this mythos of LACs that is incessant.

I was a grad student at a top R1. R1s are set up for grad students, not undergraduates. I know that you don’t like hearing it but we’re not lying to you. It’s not the same everywhere but in the lab I worked in nobody wanted undergraduates around. They just get in the way of work.

I’ll also add there are many lac profs who don’t work with undergrads either. I actually know 2 at Pomona in a department who haven’t published once with undergrads.

Link or doesn’t exist….mu money is on doesn’t exist because that is anti ethical to the SLAC model.

https://profjorgemoreno.wordpress.com/about/
Prof. Moreno collaborates with professors and grad students at major universities, not Pomona.

Jonathan Lethem takes 0 summer research projects or independent studies with students, because he’s bigger than Claremont.

Your example of Lethem is nonsensical.

As is the statement about Prof Moreno, whose personal website shows the majority of students he advised were undergrads.

Yet none are on a single paper.

You have no proof of that. And even if it were true, it’s not the same thing as what you stated above. Same thing for Lethem independent studies- Pomona doesn’t publish the list of independent studies by professors publicly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll never understand how parents here believe that research is hard to get at Research universities. There's this mythos of LACs that is incessant.

I was a grad student at a top R1. R1s are set up for grad students, not undergraduates. I know that you don’t like hearing it but we’re not lying to you. It’s not the same everywhere but in the lab I worked in nobody wanted undergraduates around. They just get in the way of work.

I’ll also add there are many lac profs who don’t work with undergrads either. I actually know 2 at Pomona in a department who haven’t published once with undergrads.

Link or doesn’t exist….mu money is on doesn’t exist because that is anti ethical to the SLAC model.

https://profjorgemoreno.wordpress.com/about/
Prof. Moreno collaborates with professors and grad students at major universities, not Pomona.

Jonathan Lethem takes 0 summer research projects or independent studies with students, because he’s bigger than Claremont.

Your example of Lethem is nonsensical.

As is the statement about Prof Moreno, whose personal website shows the majority of students he advised were undergrads.

Yet none are on a single paper.

You have no proof of that. And even if it were true, it’s not the same thing as what you stated above. Same thing for Lethem independent studies- Pomona doesn’t publish the list of independent studies by professors publicly.

Nvm, they do. https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/numbers-in-courses-sp26-final.xlsx

And guess what? There is an independent study taught by Lethem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll never understand how parents here believe that research is hard to get at Research universities. There's this mythos of LACs that is incessant.

I was a grad student at a top R1. R1s are set up for grad students, not undergraduates. I know that you don’t like hearing it but we’re not lying to you. It’s not the same everywhere but in the lab I worked in nobody wanted undergraduates around. They just get in the way of work.

I’ll also add there are many lac profs who don’t work with undergrads either. I actually know 2 at Pomona in a department who haven’t published once with undergrads.

Link or doesn’t exist….mu money is on doesn’t exist because that is anti ethical to the SLAC model.

https://profjorgemoreno.wordpress.com/about/
Prof. Moreno collaborates with professors and grad students at major universities, not Pomona.

Jonathan Lethem takes 0 summer research projects or independent studies with students, because he’s bigger than Claremont.

Your example of Lethem is nonsensical.

As is the statement about Prof Moreno, whose personal website shows the majority of students he advised were undergrads.

Yet none are on a single paper.

You have no proof of that. And even if it were true, it’s not the same thing as what you stated above. Same thing for Lethem independent studies- Pomona doesn’t publish the list of independent studies by professors publicly.

Nvm, they do. https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/numbers-in-courses-sp26-final.xlsx

And guess what? There is an independent study taught by Lethem.

Just read the catalog and do not see an independent study by Lethem, just senior thesis. Being a thesis advisor is not an independent study.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll never understand how parents here believe that research is hard to get at Research universities. There's this mythos of LACs that is incessant.

I was a grad student at a top R1. R1s are set up for grad students, not undergraduates. I know that you don’t like hearing it but we’re not lying to you. It’s not the same everywhere but in the lab I worked in nobody wanted undergraduates around. They just get in the way of work.

I’ll also add there are many lac profs who don’t work with undergrads either. I actually know 2 at Pomona in a department who haven’t published once with undergrads.

Link or doesn’t exist….mu money is on doesn’t exist because that is anti ethical to the SLAC model.

https://profjorgemoreno.wordpress.com/about/
Prof. Moreno collaborates with professors and grad students at major universities, not Pomona.

Jonathan Lethem takes 0 summer research projects or independent studies with students, because he’s bigger than Claremont.

Your example of Lethem is nonsensical.

As is the statement about Prof Moreno, whose personal website shows the majority of students he advised were undergrads.

Yet none are on a single paper.

You have no proof of that. And even if it were true, it’s not the same thing as what you stated above. Same thing for Lethem independent studies- Pomona doesn’t publish the list of independent studies by professors publicly.

Nvm, they do. https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/numbers-in-courses-sp26-final.xlsx

And guess what? There is an independent study taught by Lethem.

Just read the catalog and do not see an independent study by Lethem, just senior thesis. Being a thesis advisor is not an independent study.

Description of English Senior Thesis Course: “ Senior Thesis. Students choosing this option enroll both semesters of the senior year. A grade will be assigned for the fall semester based upon the completion of a chapter of thesis (or approximately 20 to 25 pages of writing toward the thesis) and for the spring semester upon completion of the thesis.” [hyperschedule.io]
This is not an independent study.

[Anonymous]

Independent studies with specific professors are not listed on the catalog, they are created from a student who fills out a form with their faculty of interest.

If you click the Pomona course link above, you’ll see numerous research assistantships, directed readings, and independent research (all coded 199). These are independent studies. You’ll see there’s one that someone did with professor lethem. So no, it’s not true that he doesn’t do independent study with Pomona students.