Penn or Williams for pre-med?

[Anonymous]

Williams, scroll to per capita:
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school/

But cant go wring with either choice, visit and see which is a better fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who claim SLACs are great for getting research opportunities due to their low student-faculty ratio, overlook the fact that professors there are typically *not* leading researchers in their areas. After all, if they are doing anything cutting-edge, why are they not at an R1 pulling in millions of research fundings and churning out papers like a well-oiled machine? I mean, professors at lowly directional schools also do research, but their topics in general aren't worthy of support from NSF/NIH/DOE/DOD. If they submit research proposals to these funding agencies, the proposals would be killed right away. So how are professors at SLACs any different? And why do kids want to do research on topics that aren't significant/timely, under the supervision of professors who aren't well-known/respected in their research communities?

The SLAC lab that my kids works in has almost a million dollars across a couple of significant NSF grants. You don’t know what you are talking about. It is true that SLACs aren’t super reliant on fed funding but that means the funding will stay in place. R1s which lose funding will direct all of what is left to keeping their grad students fed.

You are exaggerating the funding cut issues at R1s, making it sounds like it's an ongoing crisis while SLACs are safe. An R1 received research funding that is several orders of magnitude larger than that received by any SLAC. Even if there is cut here and there (which, by the way, is an issue that has blown over), the amount available still dwarfs that at any SLAC and is more than enough for the tiny stipends undergraduates receive.

In my twenty years of working as a STEM faculty at an R1, I have never reviewed any journal/conference manuscripts written by SLAC faculty, nor evaluated any research proposals submitted to NSF/DOE that came from SLAC. I'm sure you can point out some papers/grants/contracts here and there, but they are very few and far between. Research at SLAC has never been mainstream and most likely will remain that way.

I rather my kids work with active, accomplished researchers at R1s on projects funded with hard-to-get federal money which says something about the timeliness and significance of the research, than to have them work with lesser known researchers at SLACs on pet projects that have limited impact.

The only thing that I am sure of in your comment is that you are not STEM faculty at an R1. If you were you wouldn’t make such a ridiculous statement because 5 minutes spent researching the faculty of any top SLAC will turn up professors with long lists of publications.

Believe what you will. Perhaps because I'm in engineering, I've never seen any SLAC faculty doing anything of note. Go to the website of any major conference in any field of engineering, and look at the schools listed in the conference program. You will be hard pressed to find a Williams or Amherst or Swarthmore paper. The papers are nearly all from both elite and non-elite-but-still-decent engineering schools, as well as schools from Asia/Europe.

Ok, if my personal anecdote isn't convincing, how about some cold hard data? According to NSF's 2024 ranking by total R&D expenditures (https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?method=rankingbysource&ds=herd), which includes all areas of STEM, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Pomona are ranked 415, 388, 435, and 457, respectively. For context, schools in the northeast that no one here talks about—Temple, George Mason, ODU, and Towson—are ranked 107, 115, 202, and 315, far outperforming these top SLACs. Sure, SLACs are small, but when they are so far down the list, one has to question how much meaningful research are they generating? The answer is not much. They simply couldn't compete.

Your thinking is a bit confusing to me. Very few LACs have engineering yet you are using engineering as your research benchmark? You might want to step back and think about that one.

Then you move on to comparing undergraduate colleges to R1s for research expenditures. Again quite confusing trying to compare the research spending of a LAC to that of a graduate school.

Top LACs generate research because their professors still perform research. It may not be cutting edge research but then again neither is the research at many of the R1s that you mentioned above. Both types of schools contribute to the body of knowledge even if they aren’t making breakthrough discoveries. Undergraduates get to participate in that research because LACs are primarily undergraduate institutions, not schools which need to graduate a large number of Phds every year just maintain their classification.

What undergraduates get from this environment is real learning, they are active participants, they are engaged in real learning which isn’t the case at a significant R1.

You are comparing apples to oranges and your conclusions just don’t make sense.

These numbers include all monies even those spent at grad level or associated hospitals

[Anonymous]

I’m a latecomer to this thread and Williams grad who had many pre-med classmates. One advantage my classmates had was more personal attention in class and during the med school advising process. Williams and Penn don’t really overlap except for the selectivity level. I’m surprised that both are top choices for OP’s kid.

[Anonymous]

you can't do research at Williams first semester freshman year. otherwise, it's there if you want it, including a summer program. there's often pay involved.

I wouldnt go to Williams if you're interested in straight engineering. someone said they dont have a lot of research there, and .. yeah, thats' true. But that's not relevant to a med school conversation.

I think Penn has great research output, I'd try to figure out how much of that goes to lower classman undergrads.

for pre med I think it's important to work in a hospital early on. I know williams has those opportunities at one of three area hospitals. I would think Penn would too, but again, not sure you can do that as a freshman or sophomore.

williams has more grade deflation. but has great med school outcomes.

they're two very different college experiences which is probably the main thing

[Anonymous]

I guess research is a factor for premed and if you know you want a PhD…but I find the DCUM fascination with it strange.

Most college research is quite honestly…not exciting or groundbreaking. It frankly sounds tedious and kind of stupid. Is it learning the best practices that is more important vs what anyone is working on?

For the kids studying anything where they will work in private industry, the running joke is the kids who can’t get an internship do research because you have to do something productive. It’s not a positive thing…even the kids doing the research know that.

Carry on now with your arguments over SLAC vs R1 research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guess research is a factor for premed and if you know you want a PhD…but I find the DCUM fascination with it strange.

Most college research is quite honestly…not exciting or groundbreaking. It frankly sounds tedious and kind of stupid. Is it learning the best practices that is more important vs what anyone is working on?

For the kids studying anything where they will work in private industry, the running joke is the kids who can’t get an internship do research because you have to do something productive. It’s not a positive thing…even the kids doing the research know that.

Carry on now with your arguments over SLAC vs R1 research.

Uh. No.
You clearly do not have a recent student who has applied to medical school, vet school, or to any stem summer internships(non-premeds). Research as an undergrad is central part of the resume for MD programs as well as anyone who wants the best stem internships that will lead to top industry offers.
The students who got top industry summer internships all had research at DC's ivy. They ask about it in all the interviews.
DC's ivy they usually start research sophomore year, some earlier. Hopkins is the same. Other ivy the same. We know lots of stem students at top schools, research is key these days.
If they want Masters or phD of course research becomes even more important. Even top law schools look for research backgrounds now(often not stem research but it could be). Over half the humanities students DC's ivy do research, during the semester with professors. Art history, sociology, public policy, practically every major!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess research is a factor for premed and if you know you want a PhD…but I find the DCUM fascination with it strange.

Most college research is quite honestly…not exciting or groundbreaking. It frankly sounds tedious and kind of stupid. Is it learning the best practices that is more important vs what anyone is working on?

For the kids studying anything where they will work in private industry, the running joke is the kids who can’t get an internship do research because you have to do something productive. It’s not a positive thing…even the kids doing the research know that.

Carry on now with your arguments over SLAC vs R1 research.

Uh. No.
You clearly do not have a recent student who has applied to medical school, vet school, or to any stem summer internships(non-premeds). Research as an undergrad is central part of the resume for MD programs as well as anyone who wants the best stem internships that will lead to top industry offers.
The students who got top industry summer internships all had research at DC's ivy. They ask about it in all the interviews.
DC's ivy they usually start research sophomore year, some earlier. Hopkins is the same. Other ivy the same. We know lots of stem students at top schools, research is key these days.
If they want Masters or phD of course research becomes even more important. Even top law schools look for research backgrounds now(often not stem research but it could be). Over half the humanities students DC's ivy do research, during the semester with professors. Art history, sociology, public policy, practically every major!

Utter, complete, and total bullshit. I mean, what's your definition of a top summer internship for STEM? My Ivy kid had offers for Meta Super Intelligence and Apple's AI group and never even remotely thought about doing research. None of his friends working for FAANG, hedge funds et al did any research.

Literally, the only Ivy kids in practical STEM fields doing Summer research are the ones who can't get real summer internships. Again, these kids are even bummed about it...but again, it's better than nothing.

[Anonymous]

Nothing wrong with research if kid wants to go get PhD. Not every kid wants to code and work for Meta Super Intelligence and Apple's AI group, FAANG.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Williams, scroll to per capita:
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school/

But cant go wring with either choice, visit and see which is a better fit.

You think that’s the only way to assess it. Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a latecomer to this thread and Williams grad who had many pre-med classmates. One advantage my classmates had was more personal attention in class and during the med school advising process. Williams and Penn don’t really overlap except for the selectivity level. I’m surprised that both are top choices for OP’s kid.

Penn has personal attention too. This isn’t the 80s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams, scroll to per capita:
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school/

But cant go wring with either choice, visit and see which is a better fit.

You think that’s the only way to assess it. Really?

Um, no actually, I don't think that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Independent studies with specific professors are not listed on the catalog, they are created from a student who fills out a form with their faculty of interest.

If you click the Pomona course link above, you’ll see numerous research assistantships, directed readings, and independent research (all coded 199). These are independent studies. You’ll see there’s one that someone did with professor lethem. So no, it’s not true that he doesn’t do independent study with Pomona students.

I’m aware but if you check course enrollment on hyperschedule, this class was taken down and has no record of enrollment. It likely was a fill in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:you can't do research at Williams first semester freshman year. otherwise, it's there if you want it, including a summer program. there's often pay involved.

I wouldn't go to Williams if you're interested in straight engineering. someone said they don't have a lot of research there, and .. yeah, that's true. But that's not relevant to a med school conversation.

I think Penn has great research output, I'd try to figure out how much of that goes to lower classman undergrads.

for pre med I think it's important to work in a hospital early on. I know Williams has those opportunities at one of three area hospitals. I would think Penn would too, but again, not sure you can do that as a freshman or sophomore.

Williams has more grade deflation. but has great med school outcomes.

they're two very different college experiences which is probably the main thing

Thank you for a thoughtful comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess research is a factor for premed and if you know you want a PhD…but I find the DCUM fascination with it strange.

Most college research is quite honestly…not exciting or groundbreaking. It frankly sounds tedious and kind of stupid. Is it learning the best practices that is more important vs what anyone is working on?

For the kids studying anything where they will work in private industry, the running joke is the kids who can’t get an internship do research because you have to do something productive. It’s not a positive thing…even the kids doing the research know that.

Carry on now with your arguments over SLAC vs R1 research.

Uh. No.
You clearly do not have a recent student who has applied to medical school, vet school, or to any stem summer internships(non-premeds). Research as an undergrad is central part of the resume for MD programs as well as anyone who wants the best stem internships that will lead to top industry offers.
The students who got top industry summer internships all had research at DC's ivy. They ask about it in all the interviews.
DC's ivy they usually start research sophomore year, some earlier. Hopkins is the same. Other ivy the same. We know lots of stem students at top schools, research is key these days.
If they want Masters or phD of course research becomes even more important. Even top law schools look for research backgrounds now(often not stem research but it could be). Over half the humanities students DC's ivy do research, during the semester with professors. Art history, sociology, public policy, practically every major!

Utter, complete, and total bullshit. I mean, what's your definition of a top summer internship for STEM? My Ivy kid had offers for Meta Super Intelligence and Apple's AI group and never even remotely thought about doing research. None of his friends working for FAANG, hedge funds et al did any research.

Literally, the only Ivy kids in practical STEM fields doing Summer research are the ones who can't get real summer internships. Again, these kids are even bummed about it...but again, it's better than nothing.

I don’t see why you’re both arguing in extremes. For one, AI groups are filled with CS PhD students. There’s a ton of applied research one can take up as a great resume booster. If you want to do anything with visualizing space- you’re going to need a team of people with PhDs, same for high resolution image generation, same with many ai teams.