Penn or Williams for pre-med?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:if you want to do research at a bench, they both have that. both starting very early.

you'll have more hands-on clinical experience in a crap hospital at williams. you'll have very little hands on clinical experience in a top flight hospital at Penn.

this is a little like saying, there are fewer opportunities to play in the main orchestra at Julliard. Which is a thing people think about -- more opportunities at Frost or even Peabody all 4 years. but once you finally get in, maybe the second semester of your junior year, it's a better orchestra. this is a common complaint in music, acting etc. hard not to get sucked in but it can lead to some level of disappointment

[Anonymous]

Friends daughter is pre-med at Williams - it lacks school year clinical shadowing / volunteer opportunities at hospitals. Her daughter tried to set up school year and summer research And was never able to get it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Penn for sure. No one seriously thinks you have more opportunity at Williams unless they’re a lousy student

obviously there are far more opportunities at UPenn, but it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Williams has more opportunities than anyone attending could possibly utilize within four years, so that Williams offers 700 courses and UPenn offers 2500 isn't particularly meaningful unless you want to do cutting edge graduate level coursework (which most students at either school do not).

Williams, as a school with a 6:1 student to faculty ratio (vs. Penn's 8:1), a distinctive Oxford style tutorial program offering 2:1 student to faculty classes, and an honors program with a known track record of producing more academics per capita than UPenn (12th nationally vs. 90th), offers potentially the strongest quality of undergraduate education you can get in any college in America. 58% of UPenn classes are under 20 students, compared to 75% of Williams classes. Williams professors' top priority is their undergraduates; the academic advising and individualized mentorship is unbeatable. 80-90% of Williams students applying get into med school in a given year, whereas UPenn has historically ranged from 71-83%. In fact, Williams is a stronger feeder than UPenn for students enrolling at top medical schools per capita (though UPenn still ranks top 20 nationally).

Williams does all this while still doing comparably for feeding into Wall Street and top business schools at comparable rates to UPenn, in case you want to make an argument that Wharton has more professionally oriented students.

Let’s cut the fat.

It has a study abroad program in Oxford- doesn’t matter, you can do that from many other schools.

Tutorial is a course you only take once or a few times if you’re in the humanities. The tutorial options in STEM are skim and may not even be relevant for what you want to do. Also, other colleges discovered Independent Study decades ago.

Honors is just a thesis, nothing special.

Most of Penn and Williams courses are small. Penn has more students so there’s more range. It’s actually more impressive such a high percentage of people go to med school from a school as large as Penn- they’re clearly challenging students and getting them opportunities.

What does UPenn have? Multiple massive medical centers- some of the most important ones in their state. Many more research, advising, and shadowing opportunities. More funding for clubs related to healthcare. More talks, more visiting scholars, more everything. If you have any ambition at all, it makes more sense to go to Penn.

Apparently UPenn's advantages in having more access for medical opportunities do not matter if Williams has a comparable medical school acceptance rate and placement to top medical programs on a student adjusted basis. That's the whole point. UPenn is NOT superior to Williams in terms of outcomes, even if their undergrads have direct access to opportunities from a top ranked medical school. Williams students have enough distinctive aspects on their profile to be competitive. That's the argument you somehow fail to get, that it's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.

UPenn boosters think that career preparation is the end all be all. Williams students go to Williams because it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be on first hand terms with virtually all of your professors, unlike the vast majority of schools. It is an opportunity to explore widely and openly without any judgement, knowing you'll get a top notch education no matter what department you choose. The point is that Williams has a tutorial system for coursework that is easy to participate in and heavily advertised; at least 50% of their grads participate. How many UPenn students even take an independent study? Do they care about building deep relations with their peers and professors, or is it just all for the rat race? Williams students WANT a well-rounded, holistic liberal arts education; many STEM majors there will eagerly take non-STEM humanities simply for the intellectual fulfillment. The average UPenn STEM student sees humanities and social science requirements as an obstacle to be completed with the least resistance as possible.

There is published research on this that despite R1 graduates slightly outperforming baccalaureate colleges in terms of average MCAT score, the latter have higher medical school acceptance rates. And the reason is because the participation on high impact practices (HIPS)- things like study abroad, thesis, research, connections to faculty members- is considerably higher at those undergraduate focused schools. Take that analogy to UPenn vs. Williams and you get a similar account. UPenn students may be slightly stronger on average than Williams students, UPenn's science programs may be more competitive in preparing their grads for the MCAT than those at Williams, yet the level of individual advising and the average participation on HIPS helps their grads stand out.

Penn has a lot more students to get into med school than Williams. It’s not that interesting that Williams has 10 people going to med school each year. Penn students factually have more opportunities and higher level research (MD PHD)

Can you point to proof? Williams grads have higher overall admit rates and higher rates into elite med schools, particularly into Harvard. Both points indicate the opposite of your assertion. And, Williams has far more than 10 going to med schools each year.

Penn feeds into Penn and Harvard as the top 2 medical schools and Williams feeds into Harvard and Penn as the top 2 medical schools. Nearly every university affiliated with a Medical School has it's undergrad as the #1 feeder. I don't believe anyone actually thinks Harvard Medical School and Penn Medical School are really any different.

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school/

I agree completely and you just help prove the point that Penn isn’t better than Williams. This is a fit discussion, not an education quality discussion but as usual “the useful idiots” are roaming the halls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn for sure. No one seriously thinks you have more opportunity at Williams unless they’re a lousy student

obviously there are far more opportunities at UPenn, but it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Williams has more opportunities than anyone attending could possibly utilize within four years, so that Williams offers 700 courses and UPenn offers 2500 isn't particularly meaningful unless you want to do cutting edge graduate level coursework (which most students at either school do not).

Williams, as a school with a 6:1 student to faculty ratio (vs. Penn's 8:1), a distinctive Oxford style tutorial program offering 2:1 student to faculty classes, and an honors program with a known track record of producing more academics per capita than UPenn (12th nationally vs. 90th), offers potentially the strongest quality of undergraduate education you can get in any college in America. 58% of UPenn classes are under 20 students, compared to 75% of Williams classes. Williams professors' top priority is their undergraduates; the academic advising and individualized mentorship is unbeatable. 80-90% of Williams students applying get into med school in a given year, whereas UPenn has historically ranged from 71-83%. In fact, Williams is a stronger feeder than UPenn for students enrolling at top medical schools per capita (though UPenn still ranks top 20 nationally).

Williams does all this while still doing comparably for feeding into Wall Street and top business schools at comparable rates to UPenn, in case you want to make an argument that Wharton has more professionally oriented students.

Let’s cut the fat.

It has a study abroad program in Oxford- doesn’t matter, you can do that from many other schools.

Tutorial is a course you only take once or a few times if you’re in the humanities. The tutorial options in STEM are skim and may not even be relevant for what you want to do. Also, other colleges discovered Independent Study decades ago.

Honors is just a thesis, nothing special.

Most of Penn and Williams courses are small. Penn has more students so there’s more range. It’s actually more impressive such a high percentage of people go to med school from a school as large as Penn- they’re clearly challenging students and getting them opportunities.

What does UPenn have? Multiple massive medical centers- some of the most important ones in their state. Many more research, advising, and shadowing opportunities. More funding for clubs related to healthcare. More talks, more visiting scholars, more everything. If you have any ambition at all, it makes more sense to go to Penn.

Apparently UPenn's advantages in having more access for medical opportunities do not matter if Williams has a comparable medical school acceptance rate and placement to top medical programs on a student adjusted basis. That's the whole point. UPenn is NOT superior to Williams in terms of outcomes, even if their undergrads have direct access to opportunities from a top ranked medical school. Williams students have enough distinctive aspects on their profile to be competitive. That's the argument you somehow fail to get, that it's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.

UPenn boosters think that career preparation is the end all be all. Williams students go to Williams because it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be on first hand terms with virtually all of your professors, unlike the vast majority of schools. It is an opportunity to explore widely and openly without any judgement, knowing you'll get a top notch education no matter what department you choose. The point is that Williams has a tutorial system for coursework that is easy to participate in and heavily advertised; at least 50% of their grads participate. How many UPenn students even take an independent study? Do they care about building deep relations with their peers and professors, or is it just all for the rat race? Williams students WANT a well-rounded, holistic liberal arts education; many STEM majors there will eagerly take non-STEM humanities simply for the intellectual fulfillment. The average UPenn STEM student sees humanities and social science requirements as an obstacle to be completed with the least resistance as possible.

There is published research on this that despite R1 graduates slightly outperforming baccalaureate colleges in terms of average MCAT score, the latter have higher medical school acceptance rates. And the reason is because the participation on high impact practices (HIPS)- things like study abroad, thesis, research, connections to faculty members- is considerably higher at those undergraduate focused schools. Take that analogy to UPenn vs. Williams and you get a similar account. UPenn students may be slightly stronger on average than Williams students, UPenn's science programs may be more competitive in preparing their grads for the MCAT than those at Williams, yet the level of individual advising and the average participation on HIPS helps their grads stand out.

Penn has a lot more students to get into med school than Williams. It’s not that interesting that Williams has 10 people going to med school each year. Penn students factually have more opportunities and higher level research (MD PHD)

Can you point to proof? Williams grads have higher overall admit rates and higher rates into elite med schools, particularly into Harvard. Both points indicate the opposite of your assertion. And, Williams has far more than 10 going to med schools each year.

Penn feeds into Penn and Harvard as the top 2 medical schools and Williams feeds into Harvard and Penn as the top 2 medical schools. Nearly every university affiliated with a Medical School has it's undergrad as the #1 feeder. I don't believe anyone actually thinks Harvard Medical School and Penn Medical School are really any different.

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school/

adjusted by enrollment, williams appears higher?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Friends daughter is pre-med at Williams - it lacks school year clinical shadowing / volunteer opportunities at hospitals. Her daughter tried to set up school year and summer research And was never able to get it

Nobody’s buying that. Research is easy to get and your comment doesn’t at align with their success rates. Try again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Friends daughter is pre-med at Williams - it lacks school year clinical shadowing / volunteer opportunities at hospitals. Her daughter tried to set up school year and summer research And was never able to get it

I posted earlier today. At Williams accepted students day a student outlined her path and it was really interesting. Career services was helpful, but she also just showed up places and asked if she could volunteer and she could. Then williams paid her.

Also, research available to anyone who wants it on campus and like 25% of freshman want it and do it. So that seems off

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Penn for sure. No one seriously thinks you have more opportunity at Williams unless they’re a lousy student

obviously there are far more opportunities at UPenn, but it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Williams has more opportunities than anyone attending could possibly utilize within four years, so that Williams offers 700 courses and UPenn offers 2500 isn't particularly meaningful unless you want to do cutting edge graduate level coursework (which most students at either school do not).

Williams, as a school with a 6:1 student to faculty ratio (vs. Penn's 8:1), a distinctive Oxford style tutorial program offering 2:1 student to faculty classes, and an honors program with a known track record of producing more academics per capita than UPenn (12th nationally vs. 90th), offers potentially the strongest quality of undergraduate education you can get in any college in America. 58% of UPenn classes are under 20 students, compared to 75% of Williams classes. Williams professors' top priority is their undergraduates; the academic advising and individualized mentorship is unbeatable. 80-90% of Williams students applying get into med school in a given year, whereas UPenn has historically ranged from 71-83%. In fact, Williams is a stronger feeder than UPenn for students enrolling at top medical schools per capita (though UPenn still ranks top 20 nationally).

Williams does all this while still doing comparably for feeding into Wall Street and top business schools at comparable rates to UPenn, in case you want to make an argument that Wharton has more professionally oriented students.

Let’s cut the fat.

It has a study abroad program in Oxford- doesn’t matter, you can do that from many other schools.

Tutorial is a course you only take once or a few times if you’re in the humanities. The tutorial options in STEM are skim and may not even be relevant for what you want to do. Also, other colleges discovered Independent Study decades ago.

Honors is just a thesis, nothing special.

Most of Penn and Williams courses are small. Penn has more students so there’s more range. It’s actually more impressive such a high percentage of people go to med school from a school as large as Penn- they’re clearly challenging students and getting them opportunities.

What does UPenn have? Multiple massive medical centers- some of the most important ones in their state. Many more research, advising, and shadowing opportunities. More funding for clubs related to healthcare. More talks, more visiting scholars, more everything. If you have any ambition at all, it makes more sense to go to Penn.

Apparently UPenn's advantages in having more access for medical opportunities do not matter if Williams has a comparable medical school acceptance rate and placement to top medical programs on a student adjusted basis. That's the whole point. UPenn is NOT superior to Williams in terms of outcomes, even if their undergrads have direct access to opportunities from a top ranked medical school. Williams students have enough distinctive aspects on their profile to be competitive. That's the argument you somehow fail to get, that it's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.

UPenn boosters think that career preparation is the end all be all. Williams students go to Williams because it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be on first hand terms with virtually all of your professors, unlike the vast majority of schools. It is an opportunity to explore widely and openly without any judgement, knowing you'll get a top notch education no matter what department you choose. The point is that Williams has a tutorial system for coursework that is easy to participate in and heavily advertised; at least 50% of their grads participate. How many UPenn students even take an independent study? Do they care about building deep relations with their peers and professors, or is it just all for the rat race? Williams students WANT a well-rounded, holistic liberal arts education; many STEM majors there will eagerly take non-STEM humanities simply for the intellectual fulfillment. The average UPenn STEM student sees humanities and social science requirements as an obstacle to be completed with the least resistance as possible.

There is published research on this that despite R1 graduates slightly outperforming baccalaureate colleges in terms of average MCAT score, the latter have higher medical school acceptance rates. And the reason is because the participation on high impact practices (HIPS)- things like study abroad, thesis, research, connections to faculty members- is considerably higher at those undergraduate focused schools. Take that analogy to UPenn vs. Williams and you get a similar account. UPenn students may be slightly stronger on average than Williams students, UPenn's science programs may be more competitive in preparing their grads for the MCAT than those at Williams, yet the level of individual advising and the average participation on HIPS helps their grads stand out.

Penn has a lot more students to get into med school than Williams. It’s not that interesting that Williams has 10 people going to med school each year. Penn students factually have more opportunities and higher level research (MD PHD)

Can you point to proof? Williams grads have higher overall admit rates and higher rates into elite med schools, particularly into Harvard. Both points indicate the opposite of your assertion. And, Williams has far more than 10 going to med schools each year.

Penn feeds into Penn and Harvard as the top 2 medical schools and Williams feeds into Harvard and Penn as the top 2 medical schools. Nearly every university affiliated with a Medical School has it's undergrad as the #1 feeder. I don't believe anyone actually thinks Harvard Medical School and Penn Medical School are really any different.

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school/

I agree completely and you just help prove the point that Penn isn’t better than Williams. This is a fit discussion, not an education quality discussion but as usual “the useful idiots” are roaming the halls.

I think premed at Penn makes so much more sense because you get a lot of exposure to healthcare. Undergrads need to see the diverse array of options ahead of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have a kid at Penn studying Engineering. Took a class with lots of pre-meds and my kid said the pre-meds could retake some things and the engineers could not.

There seem to be some policies to help make pre-meds successful.

And the engineering premeds?

[Anonymous]

The per capita obsession is boring and the only thing people use for LACs. They never can present anything actually unique for the LAC experience. Most classes at top universities these days are small. You aren’t unique for taking a seminar class. There’s nothing interesting out of being able to do research with a professor- if anything, larger universities provide more access to research, because the classes aren’t that large and there’s a lot of research institutes and medical centers to be a part of the action.

I don’t dislike LACs. They’re great for the student who likes them. I just think the benefits are mostly overstated propaganda

[Anonymous]

4 pages and again the overwhelming question...does your kid want to go to college in a major city at a school with 10,000 undergrads or the middle of nowhere (some kids want middle of nowhere BTW) at a school with 2,000 undergrads.

I don't even understand why they applied to both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:4 pages and again the overwhelming question...does your kid want to go to college in a major city at a school with 10,000 undergrads or the middle of nowhere (some kids want middle of nowhere BTW) at a school with 2,000 undergrads.

I don't even understand why they applied to both.

Ours applied to Williams and Berkeley for math. They cared about academic departments more than size. Now, they are graduating from Berkeley, loved their experience, and soon are going to a t5 pure math PhD program.

[Anonymous]

mine also was very open to size and location. just didnt' want huge, but knew they could be happy a lot of places. preferred right in city or remote where kids stayed on campus. just didn't want suburban where kids actually drove daily

[Anonymous]

Penn has a top 5 medical school (has been ranked as high as top 2 not long ago, however the rankings have stopped) on the same campus as the undergrads.

The majority of premeds also change their mind during college. Just go to the best fit college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The per capita obsession is boring and the only thing people use for LACs. They never can present anything actually unique for the LAC experience. Most classes at top universities these days are small. You aren’t unique for taking a seminar class. There’s nothing interesting out of being able to do research with a professor- if anything, larger universities provide more access to research, because the classes aren’t that large and there’s a lot of research institutes and medical centers to be a part of the action.

I don’t dislike LACs. They’re great for the student who likes them. I just think the benefits are mostly overstated propaganda

for mathy people, per capita is the only way to get a read on outcomes. saying Penn places more students in med school is not at all meaningful.

in this case, looks they both have strong placement. and sure, williams a little stronger. 15th in the country instead of 20 is possibly splitting hairs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Penn has a top 5 medical school (has been ranked as high as top 2 not long ago, however the rankings have stopped) on the same campus as the undergrads.

The majority of premeds also change their mind during college. Just go to the best fit college.

I agree with this. But also go where you can actually get into a hospital early on. freshman or sophomore year. so if you hate it and need to zag, you can.