How to raise two “failure to launch” adult children?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My childhood friend has her two adult children living at home with her I can only imagine indefinitely and it’s her doing.

Her oldest is 34 and the same age as my daughter. They attended High School together and he was incredibly high achieving and graduated salutatorian and went to a distinguished 4 year university. Graduated, moved back home and has never left or worked again.

He has some mental health issues but his parents refuse to set any boundaries or expectations and they just allowed him to spiral. My friend babies him and he just sits in the attic on his computer 24/7 gaining weight and getting more and more depressed. My friend does everything for him from laundry to cooking. A vicious cycle of his self esteem plummeting.

My similar aged daughter struggled with mental health in college too. She ended up dropping out and moving back home. We put her in therapy and told her she needed to find a job but we’d support her with getting to and from therapy and work. About 6 months of therapy and a minimum wage paying job and she was ready to go back to school. Stayed with us while finishing up and graduated a year late but is now doing great. Good career, married with kids.

My friend complains constantly about not having grandkids but how does she expect it when she keeps her kids perpetually children?

I think the root is her @$$h*le husband. He’s emotionally unavailable so she keeps her kids close so she doesn’t feel useless or lonely.

Slow clap. Great, you’re perfect.

Lots of people would tear your parenting to shreds because your daughter had to return home. Don’t be so judgy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

I’m not the OP but wanted to say thank you for posting this. I tuned into my child around the late teenage years and got myself off the Type A Ivy bound track that I had her on. It’s made all the difference in our relationship, and in her growing more into herself with self awareness about her talents, her goals, and the future she desires for herself. Tbh I wish I did it sooner. But I was the pick yourself up by the bootstraps gen x kid so it took time to unravel from that parenting style.

PP here. Do you mind telling me more? DH and I are also Gen X kids who really pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps (we went from poor to UMC, both first in our families to graduate from college). We have a DD we push in school to excel in. We want her to attend a top college and have all the opportunities that we never had!

But DD complains relentlessly about everything. She's a real debbie downer. Sometimes I wonder if DH and I are pushing her too hard (in 5 APs as a junior at a W school), but since she's so negative and pessimistic, I wonder if she would ever be happy in any scenario.

I’m the PP. We came from similar backgrounds, by the time we started our family, we’d made it, and we were going to give our kid everything we never had. It was fantastic, up until about 14 years old. She didn’t want our vision of success. Wasn’t going to be a recruited athlete. Didn’t want Princeton anymore. She started pushing back and we called it ungrateful. A mental health crisis reframed it all for us. Long story short, we eased up. On everything but also we were clear on direction, kept her on the rails. College was non negotiable. In the end she got into a selective university that was right for her. And more importantly we still have a healthy open relationship with her. There was a fork in the road during those teenage years. If we chose differently, I think we would have lost her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're really online talking $#it about a woman taking care of her son with mental health issues the best she can? You have no idea about their darkest moments. You are a POS, OP.

If it was only one failure to launch kid. But two? You think she’s doing him any favors by cooking his meals, washing his underwear and not making him get any treatment for his mental health issues?

I would have agreed with first PP 10 years ago and still do for older adults. But for younger people, the constant phone use and ability to avoid in person interactions with humans has made everything so bad. So many people with mental health issues that could have been avoided. Again, not saying all. But many for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're really online talking $#it about a woman taking care of her son with mental health issues the best she can? You have no idea about their darkest moments. You are a POS, OP.

NP here. Is it at all possible that op is right? That they’ve handicapped their son by enabling him for years? That’s a definite possibility too, as much as the possibility that he has such intense mental health issues that he truly is disabled. The thing is that I don’t know, and you don’t actually know any more details, so you don’t know if the op is a POS or not. You’re quick to get really angry.

Agree with this. I look at what has happened with my BIL and I do think s big part of it was my ILs not requiring he get a job when he moved back in with them, and not insisting on therapy from the start. Eventually they got him to die both but by then he had lived with them for years and he didn't view either as necessary, so it's been hard to get him to stick with either. They normalized him just living with them and making no progress and then trying to create momentum to get him back out has been a nightmare.

[Anonymous]

Just be there as a supporter in your friend's life. You can't solve her problems but guide towards helpful resources and offer a nonjudgmental space to vent.

[Anonymous]

OP, are you really concerned about your friend, or rather, glad it isn’t you? Maybe her failure is relief for you, and somehow self-validates?

[Anonymous]

As someone with a kid with severe mental illness who struggles to maintain employment, can someone tell me how you "require" them to get a job?

When my kid got fired because delusions made him act in unexpected ways at work, or when he doesn't get hired in the first place because the executive functioning deficits that come with the medication he needs to keep hallucinations at bay were obvious in the interview, how do I just "require" a different outcome?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a kid with severe mental illness who struggles to maintain employment, can someone tell me how you "require" them to get a job?

When my kid got fired because delusions made him act in unexpected ways at work, or when he doesn't get hired in the first place because the executive functioning deficits that come with the medication he needs to keep hallucinations at bay were obvious in the interview, how do I just "require" a different outcome?

People who haven’t dealt with this or been through it have no idea how difficult it is. They don’t understand that most states allow teens to refuse treatment. They don’t understand that unless your kid is imminently suicidal/homicidal they will not get inpatient treatment unless you can pay 50k/mo for it. If they do get inpatient with insurance they will be discharged in a few days. And even if this happens repeatedly, they still won’t pay for quality inpatient. They don’t understand that even when you can pay for inpatient, it’s incredibly difficult to find a quality placement that will expect your kid. They don’t understand that when your kid turns 18 you will have absolutely zero power in all but the most dire cases (conservatorships are hard to get). When your teen/adult has serious mental illness, you work your a$$ off, but you have extremely limited ability to change anything. AC who are home due to mental illness aren’t failure to launch, their systemic societal failure to help people and families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a kid with severe mental illness who struggles to maintain employment, can someone tell me how you "require" them to get a job?

When my kid got fired because delusions made him act in unexpected ways at work, or when he doesn't get hired in the first place because the executive functioning deficits that come with the medication he needs to keep hallucinations at bay were obvious in the interview, how do I just "require" a different outcome?

NP. The way I make it happen is this. I found the jobs. I completed the applications. I used my phone number so I could set the interviews. I drove my kid to the interviews.

As far as keeping jobs, I try to be as uninvolved as possible but I do know the supervisors and we have each others’ phone numbers. We call each other if a problem arises. Also they send me the schedule - though we recently progressed to them having him send me a copy. I also make transportation arrangements and try to reserve public transportation for the way home because getting there is the biggest hurdle. We are up to four drivers in the family and everyone pitches in whenever they can fill a need.

Another thing that helps are unions. The union saved my kid’s job several times - including during a lengthy hospitalization that lasted like 7 weeks.

We also don’t give our kid any money at all so they have to work. And, after a particularly bad time when we had to have our kid removed, a condition of returning was employment of at least 20 hours a week plus classes in anything. Having had a taste of living on the streets, they know they don’t want to go back and also that I would put them out if the rules aren’t followed since I actually did it.

But I hear you about the hallucinations and cognitive issues. I finally got mine into a PNP who will prescribe a medication that is contraindicated for the condition but absolutely vital to success. That’s a whole other management issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

DP. Second that. In all failure to launch cases that I’m close enough to, the parents had very unrealistic expectations of their kids. Those kids might have launched with low stress 5 figure jobs, but that wasn’t good enough for the parents, so they let them linger at home hoping that the kids will eventually figure it out and get to the right place. Meanwhile the kids were sliding further and further back in terms of self sufficiency, social connections and so on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

I’m not the OP but wanted to say thank you for posting this. I tuned into my child around the late teenage years and got myself off the Type A Ivy bound track that I had her on. It’s made all the difference in our relationship, and in her growing more into herself with self awareness about her talents, her goals, and the future she desires for herself. Tbh I wish I did it sooner. But I was the pick yourself up by the bootstraps gen x kid so it took time to unravel from that parenting style.

PP here. Do you mind telling me more? DH and I are also Gen X kids who really pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps (we went from poor to UMC, both first in our families to graduate from college). We have a DD we push in school to excel in. We want her to attend a top college and have all the opportunities that we never had!

But DD complains relentlessly about everything. She's a real debbie downer. Sometimes I wonder if DH and I are pushing her too hard (in 5 APs as a junior at a W school), but since she's so negative and pessimistic, I wonder if she would ever be happy in any scenario.

DP. Hang in there. My daughter was the same to the extent that when she got her first tattoo it was Eeyore. She did eventually find happiness but not before trying and suffering through a few things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a kid with severe mental illness who struggles to maintain employment, can someone tell me how you "require" them to get a job?

When my kid got fired because delusions made him act in unexpected ways at work, or when he doesn't get hired in the first place because the executive functioning deficits that come with the medication he needs to keep hallucinations at bay were obvious in the interview, how do I just "require" a different outcome?

I think if you are talking about a kid with delusions or such severe deficits, you can't approach the same way.

I think there are a spectrum of issues that lead to this kind of problem and you can't approach them all the same. Which is why judgment and "why don't you just do X?" like in the OP isn't that helpful. Every situation is different.

That said, I do think there are probably things to learn from OP's experience because IF a kid has the mental health and executive functioning to respond well to therapy and being forced to work, then they should get that! I think it's like a baseline and might be a good place to start if you have a kid who is sliding off of an independent track. Like therapy seems like a no brainer -- you've got to be in treatment. And then see if you can find some kind of job that they can go and do and be consistent and use it to develop a sense of self-reliance and confidence. If they can't, well then you know and you're going to have to pivot. But it's worth it to start there.

I would guess, PP, that you've already been down that road and are doing your best. And I give you kudos. Severe mental illness is so hard for the caregivers and you've been doing it a long time for this adult child. You have no reason to feel bad or guilty. But if there was a way for your kid to work, you'd probably want that, right? I think that's the takeaway and it's worth reinforcing it because it really can help some kids get back on track. Not everyone, but for the ones who can be helped, they need it.

It's like medication. Does it work for everyone? No. But it's worth trying just in case it might.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a kid with severe mental illness who struggles to maintain employment, can someone tell me how you "require" them to get a job?

When my kid got fired because delusions made him act in unexpected ways at work, or when he doesn't get hired in the first place because the executive functioning deficits that come with the medication he needs to keep hallucinations at bay were obvious in the interview, how do I just "require" a different outcome?

I can tell you how one of my relatives did it. UMC family, sent their kid to work in a supermarket. Like collecting carts in a parking lot. They felt it’s very important for him to know that everyone has to go to work and he is expected to work in whatever capacity he can. Lots of their friends were very surprised that they didn’t just pack his schedule with therapies. It seems to have worked as he went through a few mall jobs, ended up working in a jewelry store, showed a great aptitude with jewelry and is now training in jewelry repair and working for a smaller store.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

Not OP, but thank you for posting this. I had these parents and several of my friends did too, and we all have undiagnosed mental health or learning disorders we pushed past (or didn't) that came back to haunt us by our 30s.

Unfortunately, my parents were not attuned to their owned emotional state, much less mine, but I was internally driven to get out of there and leave home as soon as possible. Parents weren't "bad" just clueless emotionally, which was not a great environment for a kid who was throw into the deep in with all these other kids who did have knowledgeable parents.

I am dealing with a childhood friend right now, in her 50s, who can barely take car of herself at customer service jobs. She so regrets not being able to go to public school and just becoming a hair stylist; her undiagnosed learning issues and mental health problems have caught up with her after her parents deaths and she has no one else. She made it through college but wasn't able to hold a higher pressure job.

Hope OPs fried can get help from some one like this pp.

[weathervane771]

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

This is so insightful, thank you. I can relate to this as an adult child who recently crashed and burned in my *thirties* - currently picking up the pieces and working on it!

I was extremely high-achieving outwardly in STEM in NoVa growing up and had been trucking along on that career path until recently. I never ever shared anything about internal emotional states and distress with my parents while in school even though I was suffering immensely with binge-eating and other problems. They didn't put too much pressure on me but just missed these things. I used artistic outlets - writing, music - as the coping mechanisms that I desperately needed and hid all dysfunction.

There's a great book on this by Sahaj Kaur Kohli called "But What Will People Say?" She also has a good advice column in WaPo. It's written with a focus on children of immigrant parents but I found many of the points to be relevant to the DMV area more broadly.

Also re: the original post - I would caution against using "married with children" as a marker of "launched." This has actually been the biggest pressure-cooker issue in my family and has led to a lot of strife between me and my parents and a lot of issues in my personal life. Not everyone has a perfect linear trajectory into marriage and children (and these things do not automatically equal success).