How to raise two “failure to launch” adult children?

[Anonymous]

Do not judge what you don't know.

There is a cluster of mental illness genes in my husband's family. My adult nephew attempted suicide several times; he is heavily medicated for depression and anxiety and has severe sleep issues. He cannot work and is supported by his father.

My adult son has severe ADHD, anxiety and high-functioning autism. He is successful in college but he only does coursework. No friends, no hobbies, no part-time job (except in the summer). He cannot multitask. He would NOT do well with the responsibilities of a family. If he marries and has children, he would need to outsource literally everything.

My son is lucky in the sense that I am a geneticist and was able to identify his needs early; seek cognitive behavioral therapy, pharmacological treatments, as well as academic and practical life accommodations for him. He made it to college because his entire childhood was dedicated to bolstering his weaknesses and affirming his strengths.

Do not presume to know the depths of other people's mental issues. Some are severe, and are compounded by parental lack of knowledge in the early years when early intervention is key, and consistency thereafter when adolescence shifts the entire frame work of treatment.

It took parents who are professionals in their field, plus a team of paid professionals, for my son to be barely functional: me (geneticist), my husband (doctor), a group of therapists and psychiatrists, as well as well-intentioned and/or experienced school counselors. If there hadn't been that level of support, *despite his own best efforts*, he'd be a dropout in the basement playing video games.

Compassion is key.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're really online talking $#it about a woman taking care of her son with mental health issues the best she can? You have no idea about their darkest moments. You are a POS, OP.

NP here. Is it at all possible that op is right? That they’ve handicapped their son by enabling him for years? That’s a definite possibility too, as much as the possibility that he has such intense mental health issues that he truly is disabled. The thing is that I don’t know, and you don’t actually know any more details, so you don’t know if the op is a POS or not. You’re quick to get really angry.

Come on. Even if everything you say is true, it is low behavior to do this to a childhood friend.

Sure, but sometimes it’s frustrating to watch someone literally create a problem and then whine about it. Op is venting online and not to her friend.

I’m in a similar situation with someone in my family. Completely enabling and yes I know the whole story. They act like so much is out of their control, but it’s just not true. It hurts to see the person who deserves a better set of parents to guide them truly neglect them in a backwards way. I could never vent to these people, but I might do it online.

All that says is that OP has poor emotional regulation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're really online talking $#it about a woman taking care of her son with mental health issues the best she can? You have no idea about their darkest moments. You are a POS, OP.

NP here. Is it at all possible that op is right? That they’ve handicapped their son by enabling him for years? That’s a definite possibility too, as much as the possibility that he has such intense mental health issues that he truly is disabled. The thing is that I don’t know, and you don’t actually know any more details, so you don’t know if the op is a POS or not. You’re quick to get really angry.

Of course it’s possible, but OP doesn’t have any way of knowing so they are a POS for assuming and judging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My childhood friend has her two adult children living at home with her I can only imagine indefinitely and it’s her doing.

Her oldest is 34 and the same age as my daughter. They attended High School together and he was incredibly high achieving and graduated salutatorian and went to a distinguished 4 year university. Graduated, moved back home and has never left or worked again.

He has some mental health issues but his parents refuse to set any boundaries or expectations and they just allowed him to spiral. My friend babies him and he just sits in the attic on his computer 24/7 gaining weight and getting more and more depressed. My friend does everything for him from laundry to cooking. A vicious cycle of his self esteem plummeting.

My similar aged daughter struggled with mental health in college too. She ended up dropping out and moving back home. We put her in therapy and told her she needed to find a job but we’d support her with getting to and from therapy and work. About 6 months of therapy and a minimum wage paying job and she was ready to go back to school. Stayed with us while finishing up and graduated a year late but is now doing great. Good career, married with kids.

My friend complains constantly about not having grandkids but how does she expect it when she keeps her kids perpetually children?

I think the root is her @$$h*le husband. He’s emotionally unavailable so she keeps her kids close so she doesn’t feel useless or lonely.

MYOB

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

I’m not the OP but wanted to say thank you for posting this. I tuned into my child around the late teenage years and got myself off the Type A Ivy bound track that I had her on. It’s made all the difference in our relationship, and in her growing more into herself with self awareness about her talents, her goals, and the future she desires for herself. Tbh I wish I did it sooner. But I was the pick yourself up by the bootstraps gen x kid so it took time to unravel from that parenting style.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My childhood friend has her two adult children living at home with her I can only imagine indefinitely and it’s her doing.

Her oldest is 34 and the same age as my daughter. They attended High School together and he was incredibly high achieving and graduated salutatorian and went to a distinguished 4 year university. Graduated, moved back home and has never left or worked again.

He has some mental health issues but his parents refuse to set any boundaries or expectations and they just allowed him to spiral. My friend babies him and he just sits in the attic on his computer 24/7 gaining weight and getting more and more depressed. My friend does everything for him from laundry to cooking. A vicious cycle of his self esteem plummeting.

My similar aged daughter struggled with mental health in college too. She ended up dropping out and moving back home. We put her in therapy and told her she needed to find a job but we’d support her with getting to and from therapy and work. About 6 months of therapy and a minimum wage paying job and she was ready to go back to school. Stayed with us while finishing up and graduated a year late but is now doing great. Good career, married with kids.

My friend complains constantly about not having grandkids but how does she expect it when she keeps her kids perpetually children?

I think the root is her @$$h*le husband. He’s emotionally unavailable so she keeps her kids close so she doesn’t feel useless or lonely.

We're super impressed on what a better parent you clearly are. Is that what you wanted to hear?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You're really online talking $#it about a woman taking care of her son with mental health issues the best she can? You have no idea about their darkest moments. You are a POS, OP.

Agree. My young adult child has severe mental health issues and I cannot tell you how hard it is to move the needle forward. OP, with your judgmental, sanctimonious and holier than thou attitude, I can’t imagine how she considers you a friend.

[Anonymous]

The reality is, I know of many more adult children struggling and living at home - some graduated college and some did not, some worked for a bit and then just checked out. Most do not have jobs that pay enough to be self supporting if they are working at all. Many are not able to hold down jobs because of executive functioning issues, anxiety, depression or all three. Truth is, I know of way more kids in this category then of Ivy undergrads living big independent lives and making the big bucks described on here constantly. I'm not putting down the kids doing well - of course they exist and we hear all about that. I'm just saying OPs scenario is more common than many may realize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

this is very insightful, thank you. I definitely see some tendencies of this in myself. I also see that the mother-father dynamic OP sees can contribute to it: a father who isn’t “all there” in raising the kids (possibly a bit abusive) and a mom who overcompensates with the helicoptering.

My question for you though is - isn’t it true that some kids just are harder and do have mental illnesses? so it’s not necessarily these parents’ exclusive fault. They may have done fine with a less sensitive kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

I’m not the OP but wanted to say thank you for posting this. I tuned into my child around the late teenage years and got myself off the Type A Ivy bound track that I had her on. It’s made all the difference in our relationship, and in her growing more into herself with self awareness about her talents, her goals, and the future she desires for herself. Tbh I wish I did it sooner. But I was the pick yourself up by the bootstraps gen x kid so it took time to unravel from that parenting style.

PP here. Do you mind telling me more? DH and I are also Gen X kids who really pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps (we went from poor to UMC, both first in our families to graduate from college). We have a DD we push in school to excel in. We want her to attend a top college and have all the opportunities that we never had!

But DD complains relentlessly about everything. She's a real debbie downer. Sometimes I wonder if DH and I are pushing her too hard (in 5 APs as a junior at a W school), but since she's so negative and pessimistic, I wonder if she would ever be happy in any scenario.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

this is very insightful, thank you. I definitely see some tendencies of this in myself. I also see that the mother-father dynamic OP sees can contribute to it: a father who isn’t “all there” in raising the kids (possibly a bit abusive) and a mom who overcompensates with the helicoptering.

My question for you though is - isn’t it true that some kids just are harder and do have mental illnesses? so it’s not necessarily these parents’ exclusive fault. They may have done fine with a less sensitive kid.

PP here. Yes, some kids are more temperamentally sensitive than others. Parents are not all to blame, and a common scenario I see in my therapy practice is that my client (innately sensitive with heightened emotional reactions to everything) feels a lot of shame that their siblings are more successful than them (because they're less sensitive and responded better to this sort of intensive parenting).

But it's up to the parents to be emotionally attuned to their kids and recognize their own personalities and temperaments. Again, this goes back to the process of metallization -- are the parents emotionally tuned in to their kids enough to "mentalize" (aka distinguish) between them? Are they able to recognize that one kid is more temperamentally sensitive than the other, or have they been so busy using their kids as extensions of their own egos/images of success that they're not even able to recognize basic personality differences between their kids? Sadly, I see a lot of the latter in my practice.

When all you value your kids for is for their "deliverables" (how successful they are in school/sports) and reduce them to a set of numbers, as is often the case in wealthy areas, you lose sight of whatever emotional connection you had to your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll repost something I commented on the other failure to launch thread:

I am a therapist who specializes in "failure to launch" young adults. Most of the clients on my caseload have a Cluster B personality disorder (either BPD or NPD), or become very close to meeting diagnostic criteria for one of them. One of the key components to raising a failure to launch young adult is that they have very little sense of self and self-direction because their own desires, emotions, and wants have been railroaded by their parents during their childhood and adolescence.

A very common scenario in my therapy practice (in an UMC neighborhood not unsimilar to, say, Mclean or Bethesda in the DMV) is that the parents pushed their (temperamentally sensitive) kid to elite private schools or public schools in competitive, wealthy school districts so that their kid attends a T20 college. The innately sensitive kid is then pushed to a high-paying career path such as tech, medicine, or finance, and when they can't hack it, they move back home as a 22 year old (or a 26, or sometimes 30 year old), and the failure to launch spiral begins.

The parents usually alternate between intense pride and shame for their kid (this is called "splitting" by clinicians, and I see a lot of this black-and-white thinking on DCUM). On one hand, they are filled with intense pride that their kid is an elite college grad and feel as if it reflects on them as parents. OTOH, the parents have intense shame for their kid because he/she failed to live up to the high expectations that they placed on their kid.

But wait, you might be wondering, why weren't these parents able to pick up on the fact that their kids are characterologically more sensitive and thus not well-suited for a path of Harvard and then McKinsey? These parents are unable to notice their kid's sensitive nature because they lack emotional attunement (which, to be fair, many first-gen UMC people who had to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" are deficient in).

One of the first things I do as a therapist is to ask my clients to describe themselves, and ask my client's parents to describe their kid. Oftentimes I'll notice that both the failure to launch young adult and the parents are unable to provide an accurate, fully-fleshed out description of their kid to me because all parties lack the ability to "mentalize" -- in other words, be attuned to the emotional states of themselves and others.

It's actually quite sad when I ask parents to describe their adult child to me, and they'll say some version of "Oh, you know, she's smart and hard working." I'll ask if there are any other traits, and they'll just give me a blank stare. The parents are unable to mentalize any other personality traits besides "smart and conscientious."

And I really feel for these parents. It's difficult being in this situation. But I think even the most loyal and well-adjusted of children would admit that they would rather be understood than be loved but misunderstood.

Wow, this is so spot on for me. So glad I was able to get out of it when I did. I’m no longer close with my parents, which I think makes all of us sad but it is what it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Do not judge what you don't know.

There is a cluster of mental illness genes in my husband's family. My adult nephew attempted suicide several times; he is heavily medicated for depression and anxiety and has severe sleep issues. He cannot work and is supported by his father.

My adult son has severe ADHD, anxiety and high-functioning autism. He is successful in college but he only does coursework. No friends, no hobbies, no part-time job (except in the summer). He cannot multitask. He would NOT do well with the responsibilities of a family. If he marries and has children, he would need to outsource literally everything.

My son is lucky in the sense that I am a geneticist and was able to identify his needs early; seek cognitive behavioral therapy, pharmacological treatments, as well as academic and practical life accommodations for him. He made it to college because his entire childhood was dedicated to bolstering his weaknesses and affirming his strengths.

Do not presume to know the depths of other people's mental issues. Some are severe, and are compounded by parental lack of knowledge in the early years when early intervention is key, and consistency thereafter when adolescence shifts the entire frame work of treatment.

It took parents who are professionals in their field, plus a team of paid professionals, for my son to be barely functional: me (geneticist), my husband (doctor), a group of therapists and psychiatrists, as well as well-intentioned and/or experienced school counselors. If there hadn't been that level of support, *despite his own best efforts*, he'd be a dropout in the basement playing video games.

Compassion is key.

Thank you, pp. This is one of the best posts I have read on DCUM, having been on over a decade. I also have a FTL brother and he did not have the resources your son did and is a dropout who lived at home all his 55 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You're really online talking $#it about a woman taking care of her son with mental health issues the best she can? You have no idea about their darkest moments. You are a POS, OP.

If it was only one failure to launch kid. But two? You think she’s doing him any favors by cooking his meals, washing his underwear and not making him get any treatment for his mental health issues?

[Anonymous]

I could be judging you and your daughter here. I can't believe this judgement comes from you who has experienced some mental health struggles.
What do you mean your daughter dropped out. I was homeless when I had to attend school in 1997 not to lose my visa. I walked to school for an hour and back to save $1.10 my friend gave me for bus.
We slept in the same bed in dilapidated rowhouse near Park Road and Georgia avenue waiting for someone to break in any time.
Wish I could have had mom there and pulled this mental health struggle. I took it like a champ and mental nothing never dared to come close to me.
You are an enabler too.