Differences between NVSL divisions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We joined our NVSL team when it was D14 and now it’s D1. I don’t notice much of a difference except that I hear one benefit in being at a more competitive division pool is being able to go to all star relays for example - the higher division team, the more teams have many good swimmers to
likely qualify etc.

It always seemed fairly competitive to make A meets at our pool even in the lower divisions - I guess because we were rising.

We have had the same (particularly good) leadership on the team the whole time, and I can imagine leadership makes a difference.

This is our neighborhood pool so we would be at it at any division - the most important thing to me is all of the kids friends from school being there.

Serious Q…has it been demoralizing being crushed in all the meets so far this summer? Or everyone is having fun and no one cares?

I’m not PP but we are on OKM. Honestly, we begged the seeding committee to take Crosspointe instead of us. Are we having fun? Yes. The culture hasn’t changed. Our kids are swimming quite fast. And many of our swimmers are in their down year. Just look at our 9-10 girls, who qualified a fraction behind LRR in the medley at 5th with three nine year olds, while T, O, and CB had 1 or 2. A 7 year old broke our 8U fly record. A good number of our A meet swimmers aren’t club swimmers. On the other hand, one of our swimmers went to Trials but still made it back, with one day in between, to swim in his summer league meet. That speaks to collegiality. Still, we hope we go back to D2 next year. I think the better team to ask your question is DR or Highlands.

Eh, Highlands & DR understand our place in the pecking order. The universe might crumble if we were to upset one of the big 3. Not worth the risk to the fate of humankind. Everyone likes us and we are content to bump along with our happy pools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We joined our NVSL team when it was D14 and now it’s D1. I don’t notice much of a difference except that I hear one benefit in being at a more competitive division pool is being able to go to all star relays for example - the higher division team, the more teams have many good swimmers to
likely qualify etc.

It always seemed fairly competitive to make A meets at our pool even in the lower divisions - I guess because we were rising.

We have had the same (particularly good) leadership on the team the whole time, and I can imagine leadership makes a difference.

This is our neighborhood pool so we would be at it at any division - the most important thing to me is all of the kids friends from school being there.

Serious Q…has it been demoralizing being crushed in all the meets so far this summer? Or everyone is having fun and no one cares?

I’m not PP but we are on OKM. Honestly, we begged the seeding committee to take Crosspointe instead of us. Are we having fun? Yes. The culture hasn’t changed. Our kids are swimming quite fast. And many of our swimmers are in their down year. Just look at our 9-10 girls, who qualified a fraction behind LRR in the medley at 5th with three nine year olds, while T, O, and CB had 1 or 2. A 7 year old broke our 8U fly record. A good number of our A meet swimmers aren’t club swimmers. On the other hand, one of our swimmers went to Trials but still made it back, with one day in between, to swim in his summer league meet. That speaks to collegiality. Still, we hope we go back to D2 next year. I think the better team to ask your question is DR or Highlands.

Eh, Highlands & DR understand our place in the pecking order. The universe might crumble if we were to upset one of the big 3. Not worth the risk to the fate of humankind. Everyone likes us and we are content to bump along with our happy pools.

OKM here again. Love this! Can’t wait to see your pools the next few weeks. It’ll be fun. 🙂

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in division 16 and I wouldn't have it any other way. We don't have any drama. Almost all the kids get to swim in A meets, whether in their age group or swimming up. It's low-pressure and a lot of fun. I hope we never move up.

You wouldn’t feel this way if you had a really good swimmer. But I get this mentality.

What’s too bad is families can’t self-select with these pools based on skill level and interest like rec sports vs travel. Some kids just want the experience and some kids really want to compete.

True, I don't have "a really good swimmer," though I do have year-round swimmers. But we have several All Star swimmers on our team and their parents have been happy enough to stay at the pool for years. Just based on that, I'm not sure it's a universal truth that parents of really good swimmers prefer the faster divisions.

Its a complicated question. I slightly question the statement that you have 'several all star swimmers' I skimmed through the all star results and I didn't see any division 16 team that had more than 2 swimmers, a few had none.
skimming through div 16 results- some of those 1st place times are nearly 10 seconds slower than what was an all-star cut last year. When my kids were younger I often wished that we were at a less competitive pool and my kids could have more success. But now that I have a kid who desperately wants to make all-stars, and is on the cusp of doing so, I think they are benefiting from being in a higher division and having to push so much harder and having better competition. You swim faster when there is someone next to you who is nearly the same or ideally slightly better. Anyway, I agree its not a 'universal truth." Certainly our choice of pool has everything to do with our neighborhood and team culture and really nothing to do with what division we are in.

We have had three make the cut in the last several years. One doesn't always swim due to some club meet or vacation or something (not having kids close to that level, I don't pay much attention to this, so apologies for the lack of detail). That same swimmer will be swimming at a D1 university in the fall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d love to get out of D1, I can tell you that much. A couple of the teams are toxic to a degree that is hard to believe until you see it.

Agreed. Let the 3 who have parity with each other form D1 and just rotate who swims each other twice. Let the rest of us go down.

I’d be happy with that solution! DR and Highlands are both great teams with strong communities and terrific swimmers but it does get tiring. Tuckahoe already tried to recruit one of our top swimmers 🙄.

How does that work with a 10 year wait list? 😉

It’s the Tuckahoe winter swim loophole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We joined our NVSL team when it was D14 and now it’s D1. I don’t notice much of a difference except that I hear one benefit in being at a more competitive division pool is being able to go to all star relays for example - the higher division team, the more teams have many good swimmers to
likely qualify etc.

It always seemed fairly competitive to make A meets at our pool even in the lower divisions - I guess because we were rising.

We have had the same (particularly good) leadership on the team the whole time, and I can imagine leadership makes a difference.

This is our neighborhood pool so we would be at it at any division - the most important thing to me is all of the kids friends from school being there.

Serious Q…has it been demoralizing being crushed in all the meets so far this summer? Or everyone is having fun and no one cares?

Everyone is having fun and no one cares. The scores don’t look great but we are not getting swept in every event.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d love to get out of D1, I can tell you that much. A couple of the teams are toxic to a degree that is hard to believe until you see it.

Agreed. Let the 3 who have parity with each other form D1 and just rotate who swims each other twice. Let the rest of us go down.

I’d be happy with that solution! DR and Highlands are both great teams with strong communities and terrific swimmers but it does get tiring. Tuckahoe already tried to recruit one of our top swimmers 🙄.

How does that work with a 10 year wait list? 😉

It’s the Tuckahoe winter swim loophole.

yes this is it. Tuckahoe uses a loophole where they bump people up on their list if you do winter swim. I don't go to Overlee, but have known the person who runs the list for years and a couple board members and Overlee doesn't have one of these loopholes. They stick to the list though with other teams doing this I think there have been discussions, but for now that is not the practice. It is one reason they haven't been winning in recent years I would suspect. Chesterbrook and Tuckahoe both have ways to get off the list quicker.

I'm sorry to hear there is bad behavior from the "big three" now, I did grow up going to Overlee and had a lot of fun. Happy to be at a more middle Division with my kids though as I didn't want year round swim to be a pre-req for summer fun (and also, the list is 10-11 years!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d love to get out of D1, I can tell you that much. A couple of the teams are toxic to a degree that is hard to believe until you see it.

Agreed. Let the 3 who have parity with each other form D1 and just rotate who swims each other twice. Let the rest of us go down.

I’d be happy with that solution! DR and Highlands are both great teams with strong communities and terrific swimmers but it does get tiring. Tuckahoe already tried to recruit one of our top swimmers 🙄.

How does that work with a 10 year wait list? 😉

It’s the Tuckahoe winter swim loophole.

yes this is it. Tuckahoe uses a loophole where they bump people up on their list if you do winter swim. I don't go to Overlee, but have known the person who runs the list for years and a couple board members and Overlee doesn't have one of these loopholes. They stick to the list though with other teams doing this I think there have been discussions, but for now that is not the practice. It is one reason they haven't been winning in recent years I would suspect. Chesterbrook and Tuckahoe both have ways to get off the list quicker.

I'm sorry to hear there is bad behavior from the "big three" now, I did grow up going to Overlee and had a lot of fun. Happy to be at a more middle Division with my kids though as I didn't want year round swim to be a pre-req for summer fun (and also, the list is 10-11 years!)

I'm curious what these teams are doing? Is the bad behavior stacking their teams to win? I agree that's annoying but is it bad behavior if no rules prohibit this? Couldn't anyone do it? Are they jerks at meets? How? Just kind of curious for specific examples as I've never seen anything specific and I'm in this division (not at a pool with one of the loopholes for membership). The general complaint seems to be they win all the time, so kind of sounds to me mostly like sour grapes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


It’s the Tuckahoe winter swim loophole.


yes this is it. Tuckahoe uses a loophole where they bump people up on their list if you do winter swim. I don't go to Overlee, but have known the person who runs the list for years and a couple board members and Overlee doesn't have one of these loopholes. They stick to the list though with other teams doing this I think there have been discussions, but for now that is not the practice. It is one reason they haven't been winning in recent years I would suspect. Chesterbrook and Tuckahoe both have ways to get off the list quicker.

I'm sorry to hear there is bad behavior from the "big three" now, I did grow up going to Overlee and had a lot of fun. Happy to be at a more middle Division with my kids though as I didn't want year round swim to be a pre-req for summer fun (and also, the list is 10-11 years!)

I hate to keep killing the rumors but a few points of clarification:

1. The Tuckahoe wait list is 4+ years, not 10. Not sure where that 10 came from. We've been members for 15+ years and it's varied between 3-5 during our membership.

2. The Winter Swim/Membership loophole was eliminated 2 years ago or so. It used to be a way to jump the line, but unfortunately isn't any longer.

3. I've talked to many members of the board about this. There is no way to jump the line. Not sure why this rumor seems to persist....I even asked for a friend (who ended up waiting.....wait for it, 4 years) if there was any way to move them up and was told there was no loophole. Period.

[Anonymous]

Holy heavens, this is SUMMER SWIM!
These polls were built for recreation and the swim teams were created for summer rec and fun.
Club teams can have all you competitive parents.

These pools will only survive if neighbors join, become invested and contribute to the financial well being of the community pool.
Yes, swim team is part of it, but these pools cannot survive if families drive cross town to join a pool just for the swim team.
All the pools need long-term, emotionally invested, local members.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


It’s the Tuckahoe winter swim loophole.


yes this is it. Tuckahoe uses a loophole where they bump people up on their list if you do winter swim. I don't go to Overlee, but have known the person who runs the list for years and a couple board members and Overlee doesn't have one of these loopholes. They stick to the list though with other teams doing this I think there have been discussions, but for now that is not the practice. It is one reason they haven't been winning in recent years I would suspect. Chesterbrook and Tuckahoe both have ways to get off the list quicker.

I'm sorry to hear there is bad behavior from the "big three" now, I did grow up going to Overlee and had a lot of fun. Happy to be at a more middle Division with my kids though as I didn't want year round swim to be a pre-req for summer fun (and also, the list is 10-11 years!)

I hate to keep killing the rumors but a few points of clarification:

1. The Tuckahoe wait list is 4+ years, not 10. Not sure where that 10 came from. We've been members for 15+ years and it's varied between 3-5 during our membership.

2. The Winter Swim/Membership loophole was eliminated 2 years ago or so. It used to be a way to jump the line, but unfortunately isn't any longer.

3. I've talked to many members of the board about this. There is no way to jump the line. Not sure why this rumor seems to persist....I even asked for a friend (who ended up waiting.....wait for it, 4 years) if there was any way to move them up and was told there was no loophole. Period.

That’s great if there’s no more loophole, but if it was only eliminated in the past couple of years the team will still benefit from the unfair competitive advantage of recruiting for years to come.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d love to get out of D1, I can tell you that much. A couple of the teams are toxic to a degree that is hard to believe until you see it.

Agreed. Let the 3 who have parity with each other form D1 and just rotate who swims each other twice. Let the rest of us go down.

I’d be happy with that solution! DR and Highlands are both great teams with strong communities and terrific swimmers but it does get tiring. Tuckahoe already tried to recruit one of our top swimmers 🙄.

How does that work with a 10 year wait list? 😉

It’s the Tuckahoe winter swim loophole.

yes this is it. Tuckahoe uses a loophole where they bump people up on their list if you do winter swim. I don't go to Overlee, but have known the person who runs the list for years and a couple board members and Overlee doesn't have one of these loopholes. They stick to the list though with other teams doing this I think there have been discussions, but for now that is not the practice. It is one reason they haven't been winning in recent years I would suspect. Chesterbrook and Tuckahoe both have ways to get off the list quicker.

I'm sorry to hear there is bad behavior from the "big three" now, I did grow up going to Overlee and had a lot of fun. Happy to be at a more middle Division with my kids though as I didn't want year round swim to be a pre-req for summer fun (and also, the list is 10-11 years!)

I'm curious what these teams are doing? Is the bad behavior stacking their teams to win? I agree that's annoying but is it bad behavior if no rules prohibit this? Couldn't anyone do it? Are they jerks at meets? How? Just kind of curious for specific examples as I've never seen anything specific and I'm in this division (not at a pool with one of the loopholes for membership). The general complaint seems to be they win all the time, so kind of sounds to me mostly like sour grapes.

OKM here. I can’t address anything other than my observations, and Tuckahoe families and swimmers were great sports, kind, and complimenting to us when they came to our pool a few weeks ago.

Also, I don’t think encouraging swimmers to move pools is bad behavior or improper if it is in keeping with the league and pool regulations. We have had many swimmers join OKM over the years because they want to swim with their club team friends (or their school friends). But OKM does not have a wait list or a boundary/HOA restriction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Holy heavens, this is SUMMER SWIM!
These polls were built for recreation and the swim teams were created for summer rec and fun.
Club teams can have all you competitive parents.

These pools will only survive if neighbors join, become invested and contribute to the financial well being of the community pool.
Yes, swim team is part of it, but these pools cannot survive if families drive cross town to join a pool just for the swim team.
All the pools need long-term, emotionally invested, local members.

Our pool has dropped from a high of division 2 to the teens since my kids have been swimming. What you've said rings true. After we started really free falling, the families who were coming just for swim team stayed, but we stopped getting new ones. The pool itself is doing great with a healthy waitlist and much more programming than just swim team (which was the case when we first started going)

[Anonymous]

We’ve been Division 7, 8, and 9. VERY middle. We had the option to join a Div 1 powerhouse and we passed on the opportunity. I am glad we had to wait so long because when the offer came, I knew my kids enjoyed summer swim but were not star swimmers.

Division 7/8 is perfect for kids who do not swim all year. My kids are not travel level / star athletes in their other sports either, but every other year when they are in the older cohort of their age group they get to swim some A meets and feel the excitement of winning. Our pool and team are pretty chill and make it fun for everyone no matter how fast or slow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d love to get out of D1, I can tell you that much. A couple of the teams are toxic to a degree that is hard to believe until you see it.

Agreed. Let the 3 who have parity with each other form D1 and just rotate who swims each other twice. Let the rest of us go down.

I’d be happy with that solution! DR and Highlands are both great teams with strong communities and terrific swimmers but it does get tiring. Tuckahoe already tried to recruit one of our top swimmers 🙄.

How does that work with a 10 year wait list? 😉

It’s the Tuckahoe winter swim loophole.

yes this is it. Tuckahoe uses a loophole where they bump people up on their list if you do winter swim. I don't go to Overlee, but have known the person who runs the list for years and a couple board members and Overlee doesn't have one of these loopholes. They stick to the list though with other teams doing this I think there have been discussions, but for now that is not the practice. It is one reason they haven't been winning in recent years I would suspect. Chesterbrook and Tuckahoe both have ways to get off the list quicker.

I'm sorry to hear there is bad behavior from the "big three" now, I did grow up going to Overlee and had a lot of fun. Happy to be at a more middle Division with my kids though as I didn't want year round swim to be a pre-req for summer fun (and also, the list is 10-11 years!)

I'm curious what these teams are doing? Is the bad behavior stacking their teams to win? I agree that's annoying but is it bad behavior if no rules prohibit this? Couldn't anyone do it? Are they jerks at meets? How? Just kind of curious for specific examples as I've never seen anything specific and I'm in this division (not at a pool with one of the loopholes for membership). The general complaint seems to be they win all the time, so kind of sounds to me mostly like sour grapes.

OKM here. I can’t address anything other than my observations, and Tuckahoe families and swimmers were great sports, kind, and complimenting to us when they came to our pool a few weeks ago.

Also, I don’t think encouraging swimmers to move pools is bad behavior or improper if it is in keeping with the league and pool regulations. We have had many swimmers join OKM over the years because they want to swim with their club team friends (or their school friends). But OKM does not have a wait list or a boundary/HOA restriction.

From the prospective of the swim team, you're correct. From the prospective of the pool- having a large bulk of membership who live nowhere near the pool and only show up for swim team is less than ideal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We’ve been Division 7, 8, and 9. VERY middle. We had the option to join a Div 1 powerhouse and we passed on the opportunity. I am glad we had to wait so long because when the offer came, I knew my kids enjoyed summer swim but were not star swimmers.

Division 7/8 is perfect for kids who do not swim all year. My kids are not travel level / star athletes in their other sports either, but every other year when they are in the older cohort of their age group they get to swim some A meets and feel the excitement of winning. Our pool and team are pretty chill and make it fun for everyone no matter how fast or slow.

Pick your pool based on whether you like the facility, the distance from your house (probably the biggest factor), and the social opportunities for yourself and your kids. It might seem all consuming right now but summer swim team is a short season of life.