I can’t stop being sad about this relationship dynamic

[Anonymous]

Man, people are such wimps in this thread (men and women, both). You act like your cushy office job is going to the salt mines every day. Yes, you have to work, and likely get paid a lot of money to do it. Why do you think you are entitled to cruise in life? Buck up and quit complaining. And if you want to get a lower paying, easier job, just do it. Yes, you might not get that fancy new kitchen or the Tesla, but that's the trade off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:he was starting an mba. ... [I] now make about 4x his salary.

A husband with an M.B.A and kids is probably 30-40+, and should earn at least $100k. That means you earn $400k+. Plenty of families are comfortable on half that income. Even with nannies and day care, you should have saved money.

When a man is the primary breadwinner, then mother typically becomes a housewife, because the after-tax income is small. Your man should become a househusband, and you should hire additional help.

If your man can't handle domestic responsibilities and won't work a six-figure job with his credentials, then you can consider dumping him. Otherwise, this thread is #richpeopleproblems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you talked with DH about downsizing? What he say? That sounds like the best option here because you are unlikely to be financially better off or better for your kids divorced as long as he is pulling his weight enough financially that there is not a net loss (or gambling away, addictions). But my guess is that you are not attracted to this less ambitious version of DH any more - so why move the kids, give up the nice house, and still be married to someone you aren't attracted to anymore? If that rings true for you, explore that more in therapy. What else attracts(ed) you to DH and can you rekindle that? Would you be ok leaving just because you aren't attracted to him anymore?

op - this is the crux of it.
it's actually even less about the money than part of attraction being that someone is somewhat ambitious. doesn't even have to be so financially driven - but just - driven to do something more.
when we met he had a million things he did and wanted to do and now it's like they're just... gone.

Same, OP. When we met, DH was a military officer. I already out-earned him, but he was ambitious and loved his job and between his pay, BAH etc, made a more than solid income. After four years of marriage he decided to retire from the military. Since he put in more than 20 years, he gets a full pension, but it's only about half of his pre-retirement earnings. I assumed he would get another full-time job, since he was only in his mid forties, and he said that was his plan, but... he never did. He had various plans: he was going to go back to school, he was going to start a company, and so on. Started some things, never finished them. He eventually picked up a little consulting work, but even with that, he makes a lot less than he would be making if he had stayed in the military, and much less than if he had a full-time civilian income combined with his military pension. What bugs me most is not that he is making less money, but that he doesn't seem to notice or care that I am still busting my butt at work. So my income pays for 3/4 of our joint expenses, and he sits around most days doing God knows what.

Yes, considering divorce. There are other issues as well. If he was working full time in a low-paid non-profit job and loved it, and was otherwise happy and engaged, I'd by fine earning most of the money. But a man who sits around with nothing much to do? No thanks.

THIS.
this is the mystifying thing.
Like, if any spouse watched the other spouse struggle to carry a heavy box from the car to the house and didn't go outside to help them, it would seem bizarre. But yet this daily equivalent is somehow ok.
then the other spouse feels resentful and wants to feel taken care of.

And now do you strongly sympathize with every guy with SAHM who never gets a job even after all her child-raising days are over?

I don't understand how anyone can seriously think these are equivalent. Women bear the entire physical burden of having the kids and 98% of the time are taking care of more child and home-related tasks even after the kids are in school. Plus after raising the kids all those years your career often takes a major hit... that your family has signficantly benefitted from through all of your work in the home. This is not at all the same as a man randomly stepping back from work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you talked with DH about downsizing? What he say? That sounds like the best option here because you are unlikely to be financially better off or better for your kids divorced as long as he is pulling his weight enough financially that there is not a net loss (or gambling away, addictions). But my guess is that you are not attracted to this less ambitious version of DH any more - so why move the kids, give up the nice house, and still be married to someone you aren't attracted to anymore? If that rings true for you, explore that more in therapy. What else attracts(ed) you to DH and can you rekindle that? Would you be ok leaving just because you aren't attracted to him anymore?

op - this is the crux of it.
it's actually even less about the money than part of attraction being that someone is somewhat ambitious. doesn't even have to be so financially driven - but just - driven to do something more.
when we met he had a million things he did and wanted to do and now it's like they're just... gone.

Same, OP. When we met, DH was a military officer. I already out-earned him, but he was ambitious and loved his job and between his pay, BAH etc, made a more than solid income. After four years of marriage he decided to retire from the military. Since he put in more than 20 years, he gets a full pension, but it's only about half of his pre-retirement earnings. I assumed he would get another full-time job, since he was only in his mid forties, and he said that was his plan, but... he never did. He had various plans: he was going to go back to school, he was going to start a company, and so on. Started some things, never finished them. He eventually picked up a little consulting work, but even with that, he makes a lot less than he would be making if he had stayed in the military, and much less than if he had a full-time civilian income combined with his military pension. What bugs me most is not that he is making less money, but that he doesn't seem to notice or care that I am still busting my butt at work. So my income pays for 3/4 of our joint expenses, and he sits around most days doing God knows what.

Yes, considering divorce. There are other issues as well. If he was working full time in a low-paid non-profit job and loved it, and was otherwise happy and engaged, I'd by fine earning most of the money. But a man who sits around with nothing much to do? No thanks.

THIS.
this is the mystifying thing.
Like, if any spouse watched the other spouse struggle to carry a heavy box from the car to the house and didn't go outside to help them, it would seem bizarre. But yet this daily equivalent is somehow ok.
then the other spouse feels resentful and wants to feel taken care of.

And now do you strongly sympathize with every guy with SAHM who never gets a job even after all her child-raising days are over?

I don't understand how anyone can seriously think these are equivalent. Women bear the entire physical burden of having the kids and 98% of the time are taking care of more child and home-related tasks even after the kids are in school. Plus after raising the kids all those years your career often takes a major hit... that your family has signficantly benefitted from through all of your work in the home. This is not at all the same as a man randomly stepping back from work.

+1. The reality is that men do not do as much domestic labor and they are not wired to do caretaking as competently as women. Even if they try, the average man is not and cannot competently fill the role of the at-home spouse. So when a man works less, that time tends to be taken up with idle activities at best, and expensive hobbies at worst.

I'm from the generation that was raised by starry-eyed feminists to believe that women can have everything and that if you out earn your husband, you're a boss babe with an enviable life. This is not what I'm teaching my teen daughter. There are very real gender dynamics that you ignore at your own peril. I was/am an ambitious high earner and my husband has always been as well. When I sought a totally egalitarian marriage in which we did about the same at home and earn about the same at work, I wasnt as happy and my marriage wasn't as strong as when I let that go. Since letting it go, our income has skyrocketed. We both do a lot more work now. I do more housework and parenting and he works his a$$ off at work. In seeking to make things even, I was holding us down.

OP, tell your husband. I doubt he likes this dynamic either. I bet he's able to really go hard at work but he doesn't have the impetus. He probably knows this is an unnatural arrangement, from the standpoint of thousands of years of evolution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you talked with DH about downsizing? What he say? That sounds like the best option here because you are unlikely to be financially better off or better for your kids divorced as long as he is pulling his weight enough financially that there is not a net loss (or gambling away, addictions). But my guess is that you are not attracted to this less ambitious version of DH any more - so why move the kids, give up the nice house, and still be married to someone you aren't attracted to anymore? If that rings true for you, explore that more in therapy. What else attracts(ed) you to DH and can you rekindle that? Would you be ok leaving just because you aren't attracted to him anymore?

op - this is the crux of it.
it's actually even less about the money than part of attraction being that someone is somewhat ambitious. doesn't even have to be so financially driven - but just - driven to do something more.
when we met he had a million things he did and wanted to do and now it's like they're just... gone.

Same, OP. When we met, DH was a military officer. I already out-earned him, but he was ambitious and loved his job and between his pay, BAH etc, made a more than solid income. After four years of marriage he decided to retire from the military. Since he put in more than 20 years, he gets a full pension, but it's only about half of his pre-retirement earnings. I assumed he would get another full-time job, since he was only in his mid forties, and he said that was his plan, but... he never did. He had various plans: he was going to go back to school, he was going to start a company, and so on. Started some things, never finished them. He eventually picked up a little consulting work, but even with that, he makes a lot less than he would be making if he had stayed in the military, and much less than if he had a full-time civilian income combined with his military pension. What bugs me most is not that he is making less money, but that he doesn't seem to notice or care that I am still busting my butt at work. So my income pays for 3/4 of our joint expenses, and he sits around most days doing God knows what.

Yes, considering divorce. There are other issues as well. If he was working full time in a low-paid non-profit job and loved it, and was otherwise happy and engaged, I'd by fine earning most of the money. But a man who sits around with nothing much to do? No thanks.

THIS.
this is the mystifying thing.
Like, if any spouse watched the other spouse struggle to carry a heavy box from the car to the house and didn't go outside to help them, it would seem bizarre. But yet this daily equivalent is somehow ok.
then the other spouse feels resentful and wants to feel taken care of.

And now do you strongly sympathize with every guy with SAHM who never gets a job even after all her child-raising days are over?

I don't understand how anyone can seriously think these are equivalent. Women bear the entire physical burden of having the kids and 98% of the time are taking care of more child and home-related tasks even after the kids are in school. Plus after raising the kids all those years your career often takes a major hit... that your family has signficantly benefitted from through all of your work in the home. This is not at all the same as a man randomly stepping back from work.

+1. The reality is that men do not do as much domestic labor and they are not wired to do caretaking as competently as women. Even if they try, the average man is not and cannot competently fill the role of the at-home spouse. So when a man works less, that time tends to be taken up with idle activities at best, and expensive hobbies at worst.

I'm from the generation that was raised by starry-eyed feminists to believe that women can have everything and that if you out earn your husband, you're a boss babe with an enviable life. This is not what I'm teaching my teen daughter. There are very real gender dynamics that you ignore at your own peril. I was/am an ambitious high earner and my husband has always been as well. When I sought a totally egalitarian marriage in which we did about the same at home and earn about the same at work, I wasnt as happy and my marriage wasn't as strong as when I let that go. Since letting it go, our income has skyrocketed. We both do a lot more work now. I do more housework and parenting and he works his a$$ off at work. In seeking to make things even, I was holding us down.

OP, tell your husband. I doubt he likes this dynamic either. I bet he's able to really go hard at work but he doesn't have the impetus. He probably knows this is an unnatural arrangement, from the standpoint of thousands of years of evolution.

op - i have told him but he just. doesn't. do. anything.
i agree he doesnt like the dynamic but he doesn't actually seem to do the work to change the situation. that's the root of our problems. it's the lasck of proactive addressing/ effort to shift the balance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you talked with DH about downsizing? What he say? That sounds like the best option here because you are unlikely to be financially better off or better for your kids divorced as long as he is pulling his weight enough financially that there is not a net loss (or gambling away, addictions). But my guess is that you are not attracted to this less ambitious version of DH any more - so why move the kids, give up the nice house, and still be married to someone you aren't attracted to anymore? If that rings true for you, explore that more in therapy. What else attracts(ed) you to DH and can you rekindle that? Would you be ok leaving just because you aren't attracted to him anymore?

op - this is the crux of it.
it's actually even less about the money than part of attraction being that someone is somewhat ambitious. doesn't even have to be so financially driven - but just - driven to do something more.
when we met he had a million things he did and wanted to do and now it's like they're just... gone.

Same, OP. When we met, DH was a military officer. I already out-earned him, but he was ambitious and loved his job and between his pay, BAH etc, made a more than solid income. After four years of marriage he decided to retire from the military. Since he put in more than 20 years, he gets a full pension, but it's only about half of his pre-retirement earnings. I assumed he would get another full-time job, since he was only in his mid forties, and he said that was his plan, but... he never did. He had various plans: he was going to go back to school, he was going to start a company, and so on. Started some things, never finished them. He eventually picked up a little consulting work, but even with that, he makes a lot less than he would be making if he had stayed in the military, and much less than if he had a full-time civilian income combined with his military pension. What bugs me most is not that he is making less money, but that he doesn't seem to notice or care that I am still busting my butt at work. So my income pays for 3/4 of our joint expenses, and he sits around most days doing God knows what.

Yes, considering divorce. There are other issues as well. If he was working full time in a low-paid non-profit job and loved it, and was otherwise happy and engaged, I'd by fine earning most of the money. But a man who sits around with nothing much to do? No thanks.

Grow up OP, water your grass and stop lusting over other people's green grass.

[Anonymous]

op - i have told him but he just. doesn't. do. anything.
i agree he doesnt like the dynamic but he doesn't actually seem to do the work to change the situation. that's the root of our problems.

+1. It’s like PP didn’t read the OP.

Also PP, be aware that in seeking to make things equal, indeed someone was holding you back. But it wasn’t you.

It sounds like things have improved in your situation and you are much happier, which genuinely is great. But it’s very telling that essentially your advice to OP is to throw in the towel professionally, bc clearly that’s all her H needs to step up (again it doesn’t sound like you read the OP. He won’t. That’s the whole problem).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When dh and i met, we both had career plans and he was starting an mba.
After marriage, dh did not get anywhere near the traction he wanted work wise. I made tracks and worked my way pretty far up the corporate ladder and now make about 4x his salary.
The problem is I’m exhausted and so tired of the pressure. Dh’s ambition has totally waned so if we want to downsize we’ll need to move and pull the kids out of school etc etc.
I’m sure I’ll get flamed but I can’t help feeling sad that I’ll never get to wake up in the morning and know that someone else is the one with work on their plate that day; that someone else is being ambitious and moving things along and that I don’t need to worry. It makes me SO sad and to the point where I am depressed about it.
I am in therapy but I cannot shake this feeling and I’m not sure if it’s possible. Do I need to get divorced? Not sure what to do.

What other roles do you or your spouse have in the family?

If your spouse is not working, or is underemployed, PLUS not providing the bulk of the high quality child care or keeping of the house and family schedule, then they are really delinquent. Of course that would be grating on the other - and only - adult in the household.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Welcome to what it has always felt like to be the breadwinning male.

Unf the post omits any and all information on how the kids and home are managed

All we know is the MBA former, all talk ambitious spouse never applied themselves in the competitive work force.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you talked with DH about downsizing? What he say? That sounds like the best option here because you are unlikely to be financially better off or better for your kids divorced as long as he is pulling his weight enough financially that there is not a net loss (or gambling away, addictions). But my guess is that you are not attracted to this less ambitious version of DH any more - so why move the kids, give up the nice house, and still be married to someone you aren't attracted to anymore? If that rings true for you, explore that more in therapy. What else attracts(ed) you to DH and can you rekindle that? Would you be ok leaving just because you aren't attracted to him anymore?

op - this is the crux of it.
it's actually even less about the money than part of attraction being that someone is somewhat ambitious. doesn't even have to be so financially driven - but just - driven to do something more.
when we met he had a million things he did and wanted to do and now it's like they're just... gone.

Same, OP. When we met, DH was a military officer. I already out-earned him, but he was ambitious and loved his job and between his pay, BAH etc, made a more than solid income. After four years of marriage he decided to retire from the military. Since he put in more than 20 years, he gets a full pension, but it's only about half of his pre-retirement earnings. I assumed he would get another full-time job, since he was only in his mid forties, and he said that was his plan, but... he never did. He had various plans: he was going to go back to school, he was going to start a company, and so on. Started some things, never finished them. He eventually picked up a little consulting work, but even with that, he makes a lot less than he would be making if he had stayed in the military, and much less than if he had a full-time civilian income combined with his military pension. What bugs me most is not that he is making less money, but that he doesn't seem to notice or care that I am still busting my butt at work. So my income pays for 3/4 of our joint expenses, and he sits around most days doing God knows what.

Yes, considering divorce. There are other issues as well. If he was working full time in a low-paid non-profit job and loved it, and was otherwise happy and engaged, I'd by fine earning most of the money. But a man who sits around with nothing much to do? No thanks.

Agrees

Big turnoff and leech. Small pension or not. That’s supplemental income. Not big enough to be actual income.

Sitting around ain’t attractive

[Anonymous]

Women pay alimony too, be careful op.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women pay alimony too, be careful op.

Op - yes I know.

There’s really no answer. And also I did marry someone who I thought would step up and had the plans and talked the talk. But then just kind of stopped trying. That’s what’s so frustrating - the total lack of hustle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So you feel you could have married a rich man. If you could have, you would have. You didn’t for a reason—likely because no rich man wanted you. I have the same thoughts, but I say to myself, there is nothing you could have done differently. I worked with the cards I was dealt. Do I wish I was born beautiful and from upper class family that paved the way for marrying a rich surgeon (a couple of my friends have this), yes! But that was not my reality. I was born low caste (we are immigrants) and pretty but nothing remarkable looks. So I married a man who was honest and hard working but not high earning. I don’t regret it, but it does sting at times that I have to work so hard because he doesn’t make much.

These posts also read like we are in 1950 to me.

Why don't women say, "I sometimes regret that I did not become a surgeon."

Why do we still fantasize about some man giving us what we want in life. If it so child-like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women pay alimony too, be careful op.

Op - yes I know.

There’s really no answer. And also I did marry someone who I thought would step up and had the plans and talked the talk. But then just kind of stopped trying. That’s what’s so frustrating - the total lack of hustle

But you did not post, "I would we would both work equally hard. " It said, "I wish I could lie in bed while someone else has the work/worry."

That is different. Adult life is hard. We are responsible for ourselves.

You and your husband are not the same type of people. Ambition does not automatically come with his genital equipment.

I would have more sympathy for you if your lament was not so tied to out-of-date gender norms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Welcome to what it has always felt like to be the breadwinning male.

Except I'd wager she's also doing more childcare than any historical "breadwinning male" has ever done in all of human history.