Do I stay or do I go?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Triage a lis5 of what needs to be done. And try to do the first thing on the list. I would think getting the POA would be first.

Do you think she should drive? If not, this is first on the list.

Thank you. I’m going to follow up with the lawyer and see if he has any ideas for getting it done. I had talked with him before taking her to do my dad’s, and he could see she was too confused to proceed with hers.
Fortunately, her driving seems ok. To my knowledge, she hasn’t gotten lost. She has gone by herself to the grocery, post office and her hairdresser, and made it back in a normal amount of time. When I have taken her places she’s been able to give me directions and knows the streets.

NP. Taking control, moving your mother, liquidating her house, etc. - that is not an option from what you describe, since your mom still has capacity to make her own decisions, despite her struggles. If she’s driving and taking herself to appointments, etc. then you will not be able to get guardianship; that would require two physicians to certify that she cannot participate in decision-making. And you cannot get access to her accounts without her agreement and cooperation.

There is no easy path here, but it sounds like you cannot move in with your mom or stay with her indefinitely, and your presence is agitating her, due to her early dementia. I would go home and let the dust settle. She has people to look after her, which is fortunate.

I’m sorry you’re in this very difficult situation.

[Anonymous]

Also - as horrible as it sounds, you probably won’t be able to meaningfully step in until there’s been a crisis that forces the issue; things will have to come to a head. For example (as a hypothetical), she locks herself out when you’re not there, becomes agitated and unwell out in the cold and is brought by police to the hospital (for what they call a “social admission.”) Decisions will have to be made with the support of the medical team and the social worker; they can be the “bad guy” and you will step in as her decision-maker. Of course, if she seems fine they will likely just send her back home again, but eventually that won’t be an option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can't leave a person with dementia on their own, not even for a few weeks. My neighbor ended up falling down the stairs at night and cracking her skull. Wasn't found until the next day and that is with neighbors having to check on her as the kids thought she was okay to live alone. This is after she got lost driving and kept locking herself out of the house, trying the wrong key in the door over and over. "Nope, she is okay."

Too bad doctors don't do any routine cognitive testing of seniors or make having a POA, etc a requirement to receive social security.

I understand what you’re saying, but if she won’t accept help I don’t know what I can do. I can’t stay here forever waiting her out. My presence is clearly of no comfort to her, and is in fact agitating her even more as I disrupt her privacy and routines. So far, she is able to take care of herself, and there are numerous neighbors and friends to help. Ironically, she locked herself out today when she slammed the screen door in a rage and the hook flew up and latched (see my earlier comment). There definitely needs to be better mental and cognitive screening for the elderly. She had her yearly wellness check a couple of months ago and supposedly passed the cursory cognitive check with flying colors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Triage a lis5 of what needs to be done. And try to do the first thing on the list. I would think getting the POA would be first.

Do you think she should drive? If not, this is first on the list.

Thank you. I’m going to follow up with the lawyer and see if he has any ideas for getting it done. I had talked with him before taking her to do my dad’s, and he could see she was too confused to proceed with hers.
Fortunately, her driving seems ok. To my knowledge, she hasn’t gotten lost. She has gone by herself to the grocery, post office and her hairdresser, and made it back in a normal amount of time. When I have taken her places she’s been able to give me directions and knows the streets.

NP. Taking control, moving your mother, liquidating her house, etc. - that is not an option from what you describe, since your mom still has capacity to make her own decisions, despite her struggles. If she’s driving and taking herself to appointments, etc. then you will not be able to get guardianship; that would require two physicians to certify that she cannot participate in decision-making. And you cannot get access to her accounts without her agreement and cooperation.

There is no easy path here, but it sounds like you cannot move in with your mom or stay with her indefinitely, and your presence is agitating her, due to her early dementia. I would go home and let the dust settle. She has people to look after her, which is fortunate.

I’m sorry you’re in this very difficult situation.

Thank you. I’m very sadly coming to the conclusion that there’s really nothing I can do right now. Much like happened with my dad, it’s probably going to take a crisis. Witnessing the roller coaster of his suffering for a month was horrific. I haven’t even been able to process it. But at least I thought I was of some comfort and help to him. In that regard it was nothing compared to this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also - as horrible as it sounds, you probably won’t be able to meaningfully step in until there’s been a crisis that forces the issue; things will have to come to a head. For example (as a hypothetical), she locks herself out when you’re not there, becomes agitated and unwell out in the cold and is brought by police to the hospital (for what they call a “social admission.”) Decisions will have to be made with the support of the medical team and the social worker; they can be the “bad guy” and you will step in as her decision-maker. Of course, if she seems fine they will likely just send her back home again, but eventually that won’t be an option.

She actually locked herself out today if you missed my earlier post. And I think you’re absolutely right that this will likely end in a crisis. I just don’t want the crisis to be assaulting me physically to the point I have to call the cops.

[Anonymous]

For the love of god do not let that woman drive. She'll kill someone. I worked with dementia patients as a CNA when I was very young and considering a nursing career. It's HARD, but you have to rip the bandaid off and get her the help she needs before she starts a fire and burns the house down, or wanders off in the middle of the night. The people who are telling you to leave for a few weeks (!!! OMG !!!) have never been around a person with dementia. You simply don't leave them, let alone for weeks at a time. You need to get her to a safe place, and home alone isn't it. Yes she'll be mad. Yes she'll scream and lash out. Yes you'll feel like a jerk. No that doesn't mean you're doing the wrong thing. Do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can't leave a person with dementia on their own, not even for a few weeks. My neighbor ended up falling down the stairs at night and cracking her skull. Wasn't found until the next day and that is with neighbors having to check on her as the kids thought she was okay to live alone. This is after she got lost driving and kept locking herself out of the house, trying the wrong key in the door over and over. "Nope, she is okay."

Too bad doctors don't do any routine cognitive testing of seniors or make having a POA, etc a requirement to receive social security.

I understand what you’re saying, but if she won’t accept help I don’t know what I can do. I can’t stay here forever waiting her out. My presence is clearly of no comfort to her, and is in fact agitating her even more as I disrupt her privacy and routines. So far, she is able to take care of herself, and there are numerous neighbors and friends to help. Ironically, she locked herself out today when she slammed the screen door in a rage and the hook flew up and latched (see my earlier comment). There definitely needs to be better mental and cognitive screening for the elderly. She had her yearly wellness check a couple of months ago and supposedly passed the cursory cognitive check with flying colors.

This happened with my mom—she’s always been paranoid, seemed depressed for decades, lost things, was combative if she forgets something, if she thinks we’re talking down to her, or if someone disagrees with her. She passed a basic cognitive test.

However, a year or so later, she got seriously lost driving, and somehow found her way back many hours later. After this crisis of sorts, she got a neurologist exam, got diagnosed with Alzheimers, and my dad had to go through a court process to become her guardian because there was no POA.

I’m afraid this might be how it has to happen with you and your mom. You'll need to wait for a crisis—hopefully one that does not involve involuntary manslaughter from driving with dementia—and then you’ll finally get a confirming diagnosis. After which you will can go through the court to become her guardian.

Hopefully you can get a second opinion before any catastrophic event happens. Her behavior could be because she’s not sleeping, or she’s almost OCD and is having trouble adjusting to this massive disruption of routine. These and other possibilities should be ruled out first.

So sorry you have to go through this. You do need to take care of your own health first.

[Anonymous]

You need to stay and take over her financial affairs at all costs.
Treat her like a child if need be - don’t ask her, don’t expect her to make decisions.
Get online access to everything she has, find out who the beneficiary is on her accounts etc.
She is a perfect victim of a scammer or abuser.
Please don’t be childish and leave over you “bad cold” or whatever.
You are lucky to be able to stay for an extended time, use the chance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also - as horrible as it sounds, you probably won’t be able to meaningfully step in until there’s been a crisis that forces the issue; things will have to come to a head. For example (as a hypothetical), she locks herself out when you’re not there, becomes agitated and unwell out in the cold and is brought by police to the hospital (for what they call a “social admission.”) Decisions will have to be made with the support of the medical team and the social worker; they can be the “bad guy” and you will step in as her decision-maker. Of course, if she seems fine they will likely just send her back home again, but eventually that won’t be an option.

She actually locked herself out today if you missed my earlier post. And I think you’re absolutely right that this will likely end in a crisis. I just don’t want the crisis to be assaulting me physically to the point I have to call the cops.

DP
Please don’t be dramatic
You can wrestle down an old woman if needed
I just can’t with those people who never had kids and have no idea how to be a responsible person

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also - as horrible as it sounds, you probably won’t be able to meaningfully step in until there’s been a crisis that forces the issue; things will have to come to a head. For example (as a hypothetical), she locks herself out when you’re not there, becomes agitated and unwell out in the cold and is brought by police to the hospital (for what they call a “social admission.”) Decisions will have to be made with the support of the medical team and the social worker; they can be the “bad guy” and you will step in as her decision-maker. Of course, if she seems fine they will likely just send her back home again, but eventually that won’t be an option.

She actually locked herself out today if you missed my earlier post. And I think you’re absolutely right that this will likely end in a crisis. I just don’t want the crisis to be assaulting me physically to the point I have to call the cops.

DP
Please don’t be dramatic
You can wrestle down an old woman if needed
I just can’t with those people who never had kids and have no idea how to be a responsible person

you don't know what you are talking about. My MIL with dementia knocked down my SIL SIL herself is in her 60s so not a spring chicken and being caught by surprise by your own mother striking you down can injure you.

Your last sentence is a lot of nonsense from your own experiences. Nothing to do with OP.

[Anonymous]

It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. The fact is that without a DPOA, and no cooperation, there isn't much you can do legally until she degrades enough for a guardianship case.

The things you can do that no one has talked about yet:

1) put an airtag in her car.
2) if there is any possibility of your mom wearing (and charging every night) a modern iwatch, then get her one with cell service, set up the fall notifications, and set up location tracking.
3) Who is the executor of your dad's will? Do you have access to your dad's email? There's a grey area between adding your name to accounts (very difficult), versus making sure that you have passwords for the online access for accounts in order to monitor recurring bill payments.
4) When my parents were in the beginning/moderate stages of dementia, I set up blink cameras very discreetly around the house. This wasn't so I could spy on them 24x7, but helped me know if they were in the kitchen or the basement or upstairs, see if the car was in the driveway, etc.
5) You might be able to set up USPS Informed Delivery, which would give you daily email insight into what mail is arriving.

My parents oscillated along that way for about two years, until my dad had a sudden break and accused the neighbors of stealing from the house. Adult protective services took them to the hospital for evaluation, and they were kept in the hospital until a memory care bed opened up.

In some states you can make an anonymous complaint about someones competence for driving, but honestly right now it sounds like she'd probably pass a re-test.

Unfortunately, while there are some drugs that can delay some symptoms of dementia, they frequently can cause additional anger and suspicion. For someone who is already angry and lashing out there aren't any good dementia medications, so there isn't much for a doctor to do at this point. While she might benefit from anti-anxiety meds, it doesn't sound like she'd be open to them.

I'm sorry OP. It really sucks. And I'm very sorry for the loss of your dad. It's been a hard year for losing dads.

[Anonymous]

I'm so sorry OP.

Both of my parents are gone now, after several years of stress, crises, arguments about care, choices I didn't agree with, etc... It's awful.

Here's my two cents:
- you cannot save your parents from who they are and the choices they have made
- your parents spent a lifetime keeping you at bay, not letting you see the truth of what/how they were living. Your father sounds complicit in that.
- You're left trying to change patterns/decisions/attitudes that they have spent decades building. You're wanting to behave (laudably) in ways they have never allowed - even when they are well. So you're not going to be able to reason with your mom, and that is not your fault. In a very real sense this current reality is what they chose and what they built. Your mom will reap what she has sown. I know that sounds terribly harsh, but it's true. If they never let you in then you can't possibly effect a 180degree turnaround now. No one could.

I agree w/ all the posters who said that it will take some sort of crisis to precipitate a situation where you can actually take action or influence an outcome. with any luck that crisis will "just" be a fall, or her locking herself out, or a utility being shut off.

So you can't save her from herself. But you definitely can prepare for what you know is likely in the near future - and you're already doing that. Establishing relationships w/ the attorneys, doctors, neighbors, key friends, etc... will all pay dividends when you have to step in. Given the size of the town, it might even be worth talking w/ the Chief of Police. They are often frontline w/ situations so knowing you have concerns, knowing how to reach you, knowing what you would want them to do (take her to a hospital for instance, rather than letting her go home) might help you at a critical moment.

Documenting the things that concern you now, and any feedback you get from those folks in the next few weeks/months will be good. (There may come a time when it will be helpful to cite reasons why it is not safe for her to live alone - lockouts, falls, stove left on, erratic behavior, etc... Specifics will be helpful.)

Take pictures of utility bills, bank account statements, even her credit cards, may be useful. If you need to pay bills having account numbers will help, passwords are also important if you can find them.

Get a small notebook and put all that utility/credit card/bank account info in it. Keep a list of doctors/attorneys/police/neighbors in there so you have it all handy. Have your parents' social security numbers handy, along w/ the names of their parents, their mothers' maiden names if you can find them, etc...

You might also look into whether there are any geriatric care managers in your mother's area (https://www.aginglifecare.org). She might not accept help (though sometimes people will take help from a stranger in a way they won't from a family member or friend) but someone w/ that expertise could be a great resource for you now, and when the crisis comes.

It was important for me to remember that my parents were adults, who made decisions for themselves that determined a great deal about their last few years. I respected their right to do that, even when I disagreed with them. And I reminded myself that fundamentally I couldn't control what happened.

So, safety first - do anything you can to ensure she's safe now and has a safety net in place. (Sounds like you're doing a lot of that.) Line up resources so that when you are eventually in a position to make decisions on her behalf you have the resources and info you need. Then let yourself off the hook. You did not create this scenario - your parents did. You will do your best, whenever you are able, but you can only do what is possible. Do not beat yourself up for choices they made.

One of the most helpful things anyone ever said to me when I was in similar weeds, was a post here on DCUM. They said "you don't have to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm." For some reason that became a touchstone for me in terms of maintaining my own sanity, my family's well-being, my job, etc... I hope you can find something similar to help you maintain equilibrium.

Good luck!! I hope your mom will avoid serious nightmares and that eventually you will be able to feel more in charge. No matter what, this too shall pass and I'm here to tell you that there is peace on the other side. It will be bumpy, but you will get there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the love of god do not let that woman drive. She'll kill someone. I worked with dementia patients as a CNA when I was very young and considering a nursing career. It's HARD, but you have to rip the bandaid off and get her the help she needs before she starts a fire and burns the house down, or wanders off in the middle of the night. The people who are telling you to leave for a few weeks (!!! OMG !!!) have never been around a person with dementia. You simply don't leave them, let alone for weeks at a time. You need to get her to a safe place, and home alone isn't it. Yes she'll be mad. Yes she'll scream and lash out. Yes you'll feel like a jerk. No that doesn't mean you're doing the wrong thing. Do it.

PP, that’s not possible unless OP’s mother is deemed unable to make her own decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need to stay and take over her financial affairs at all costs.
Treat her like a child if need be - don’t ask her, don’t expect her to make decisions.
Get online access to everything she has, find out who the beneficiary is on her accounts etc.
She is a perfect victim of a scammer or abuser.
Please don’t be childish and leave over you “bad cold” or whatever.
You are lucky to be able to stay for an extended time, use the chance.

You’ve obviously never been in this situation. OP cannot force her (paranoid) mother to give her access to accounts, etc. That’s what makes these situations so difficult.

[Anonymous]

So so tough. I’m sorry. A close friend who is dealing with some similar issues called social services on her mom. You can file an anonymous report and they’ll come do a welfare check. It can be helpful to have documentation if you are eventually going to need to go to court to get control of the situation (as my friend expect to have to do).